Reinfection

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Bird on a Fire
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Reinfection

Post by Bird on a Fire » Sat Jan 01, 2022 11:58 am

Do we know much about how long infection confers immunity against Omicron?

Say, if a boosted person had covid over Christmas, never had symptoms, and recovered, would they have a period of a few weeks or months where getting infected again would be super unlikely?
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Re: Reinfection

Post by jdc » Sat Jan 01, 2022 4:07 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Sat Jan 01, 2022 11:58 am
Do we know much about how long infection confers immunity against Omicron?

Say, if a boosted person had covid over Christmas, never had symptoms, and recovered, would they have a period of a few weeks or months where getting infected again would be super unlikely?
From memory, the immune response to infection is more variable than that to vaccination but it tends to be broader.

So you might not make antibodies to the spike protein following infection but you might have a better cellular immune response, or, otoh, perhaps you will end up with good cellular immunity, along with antibodies to the nucleocapsid and spike proteins.

That's infection alone - infection plus vaccination gives you hybrid immunity which has the breadth of response from infection plus a more reliable formation of antibodies and memory B cells from the vaccine. Infection with Omicron plus a 3-dose vaccine schedule is as immune as you can get at the moment but I guess with Omicron being so new we don't really know just how good that is.

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Re: Reinfection

Post by jdc » Sat Jan 01, 2022 4:11 pm

Last edited by jdc on Thu Jan 06, 2022 7:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Changed massive image to a url

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Re: Reinfection

Post by jdc » Sat Jan 01, 2022 4:20 pm

This is a bit more upbeat on immune response to infection https://www.bmj.com/content/374/bmj.n2101 and includes refs to a couple of papers:
A National Institutes of Health (NIH) funded study from La Jolla Institute for Immunology found “durable immune responses” in 95% of the 200 participants up to eight months after infection.13 One of the largest studies to date, published in Science in February 2021, found that although antibodies declined over 8 months, memory B cells increased over time, and the half life of memory CD8+ and CD4+ T cells suggests a steady presence.9
Ref 9 is https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abf4063
The authors found a high degree of heterogeneity in the magnitude of adaptive immune responses that persisted into the immune memory phase to the virus. However, immune memory in three immunological compartments remained measurable in greater than 90% of subjects for more than 5 months after infection. Despite the heterogeneity of immune responses, these results show that durable immunity against secondary COVID-19 disease is a possibility for most individuals.

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Re: Reinfection

Post by jdc » Sat Jan 01, 2022 4:25 pm

And on hybrid immunity viewtopic.php?p=105511#p105511

The Nature news article is worth reading in full imo.

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Re: Reinfection

Post by sTeamTraen » Sun Jan 02, 2022 1:46 am

jdc wrote:
Sat Jan 01, 2022 4:11 pm
British Soc. Immunol. graphic:
That looks like mostly propaganda. Any uncertainty about the length or depth of acquired immunity from infection is made to sound threatening, while the comparable uncertainty about vaccines is minimised. I get why they're doing that, and I totally agree with the unstated message of "Oh My f.cking God, Get the f.cking Vaccine Already, You f.cking f.cks", but it's pretty unbalanced for anyone trying to find out what the actual probabilities are.
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Re: Reinfection

Post by Bird on a Fire » Wed Jan 05, 2022 11:33 am

Thanks for the info and links, jdc.

My thinking is this. My mum and I got it before Christmas. We don't know where, but we'd only been meeting people outside and wearing masks for shopping - Omi really is catchy.

Short of actually shielding we can't really avoid being in similar circumstances again. But I think the data suggests we'd be pretty unlikely to get it again during this wave, and neither of us had symptoms last time. Obviously she's testing for work, and I will before meeting folks (I'm WFH anyway).

Especially pleasing was that nobody at the old folks' home where my mum works got it, despite her and a contractor testing positive, so all the protocols they have seem to be working quite well. Those protocols were cobbled together from stuff I've read here plus the Portuguese government's advice, as the social housing company she works for haven't given any guidance at all and the UK government are shitehawks.
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Re: Reinfection

Post by lpm » Wed Jan 05, 2022 12:53 pm

What's up with this Starmer bloke? Reinfection after 3 months despite 3 vaccines.

No proper British defiance against the enemy, if we'd all been like him in 1940 we'd be speaking German now.
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Re: Reinfection

Post by shpalman » Wed Jan 05, 2022 1:00 pm

Get well soon mate.
molto tricky

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Re: Reinfection

Post by jimbob » Wed Jan 05, 2022 2:21 pm

lpm wrote:
Wed Jan 05, 2022 12:53 pm
What's up with this Starmer bloke? Reinfection after 3 months despite 3 vaccines.

No proper British defiance against the enemy, if we'd all been like him in 1940 we'd be speaking German now.
He has kids at school
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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Re: Reinfection

Post by Seagull » Thu Jan 06, 2022 9:15 am

A group of kids I know have just been re-infected after previously having covid at the end of October...

(I have been in one of their houses, but maybe before the kid there was infectious? I was there one day after they had contact with a +ve case - unknowingly at the time - but 3 days before they had a +ve LFT themselves. Does anyone know when infectivity(?) is likely to kick in with Omicron?).

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Re: Reinfection

Post by bob sterman » Thu Jan 06, 2022 12:30 pm

lpm wrote:
Wed Jan 05, 2022 12:53 pm
What's up with this Starmer bloke? Reinfection after 3 months despite 3 vaccines.
Thankfully having 2 doses plus a booster considerably reduces the risk of being "in good spirits" during any subsequent infection.

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Re: Reinfection

Post by shpalman » Thu Jan 06, 2022 12:34 pm

jimbob wrote:
Wed Jan 05, 2022 2:21 pm
lpm wrote:
Wed Jan 05, 2022 12:53 pm
What's up with this Starmer bloke? Reinfection after 3 months despite 3 vaccines.

No proper British defiance against the enemy, if we'd all been like him in 1940 we'd be speaking German now.
He has kids at school
So does Johnson for all he knows.
molto tricky

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Re: Reinfection

Post by Stranger Mouse » Thu Jan 06, 2022 4:25 pm

lpm wrote:
Wed Jan 05, 2022 12:53 pm
What's up with this Starmer bloke? Reinfection after 3 months despite 3 vaccines.

No proper British defiance against the enemy, if we'd all been like him in 1940 we'd be speaking German now.
Omicronron apparently gives a little immunity against Delta infection but Delta does fuckall for immunity against Omicron. I’m hearing of quite a few cases where people tested positive while asymptomatic for Delta in the last 1 - 3 months before going on to be infected with what appears to be Delta.

Also Boris Johnson has probably been reinfected and just lied about it.
I’ve decided I should be on the pardon list if that’s still in the works

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Re: Reinfection

Post by shpalman » Thu Jan 06, 2022 4:26 pm

Stranger Mouse wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 4:25 pm
lpm wrote:
Wed Jan 05, 2022 12:53 pm
What's up with this Starmer bloke? Reinfection after 3 months despite 3 vaccines.

No proper British defiance against the enemy, if we'd all been like him in 1940 we'd be speaking German now.
Omicronron apparently gives a little immunity against Delta infection but Delta does fuckall for immunity against Omicron. I’m hearing of quite a few cases where people tested positive while asymptomatic for Delta in the last 1 - 3 months before going on to be infected with what appears to be Delta.

Also Boris Johnson has probably been reinfected and just lied about it.
Are these people who were asymptomatic for Delta going on to show symptoms when infected with Omicron?
molto tricky

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Re: Reinfection

Post by Stranger Mouse » Thu Jan 06, 2022 4:36 pm

shpalman wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 4:26 pm
Stranger Mouse wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 4:25 pm
lpm wrote:
Wed Jan 05, 2022 12:53 pm
What's up with this Starmer bloke? Reinfection after 3 months despite 3 vaccines.

No proper British defiance against the enemy, if we'd all been like him in 1940 we'd be speaking German now.
Omicronron apparently gives a little immunity against Delta infection but Delta does fuckall for immunity against Omicron. I’m hearing of quite a few cases where people tested positive while asymptomatic for Delta in the last 1 - 3 months before going on to be infected with what appears to be Delta.

Also Boris Johnson has probably been reinfected and just lied about it.
Are these people who were asymptomatic for Delta going on to show symptoms when infected with Omicron?
Yup. One was someone interviewed on the radio who said that he only knew he had Delta because of a positive test whereas the second infection actually left him with borderline dangerous oxygen levels.
I’ve decided I should be on the pardon list if that’s still in the works

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Re: Reinfection

Post by Herainestold » Thu Jan 06, 2022 6:04 pm

You can get colds or the flu numerous times, so why should it be any different with Omicron? It may be "milder" but people are still dying in record numbers.
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Re: Reinfection

Post by Herainestold » Thu Jan 06, 2022 6:14 pm

Can you get Omicron and Delta at the same time? One in the nose and throat, the other in the lungs?
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Re: Reinfection

Post by shpalman » Thu Jan 06, 2022 6:58 pm

Herainestold wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 6:14 pm
Can you get Omicron and Delta at the same time? One in the nose and throat, the other in the lungs?
In principle yes, apparently, although I'm not sure if I've heard of any cases.

Flurona is a thing.
molto tricky

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Re: Reinfection

Post by shpalman » Thu Jan 06, 2022 7:01 pm

Stranger Mouse wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 4:36 pm
shpalman wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 4:26 pm
Stranger Mouse wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 4:25 pm


Omicronron apparently gives a little immunity against Delta infection but Delta does fuckall for immunity against Omicron. I’m hearing of quite a few cases where people tested positive while asymptomatic for Delta in the last 1 - 3 months before going on to be infected with what appears to be Delta.

Also Boris Johnson has probably been reinfected and just lied about it.
Are these people who were asymptomatic for Delta going on to show symptoms when infected with Omicron?
Yup. One was someone interviewed on the radio who said that he only knew he had Delta because of a positive test whereas the second infection actually left him with borderline dangerous oxygen levels.
I suppose someone unvaccinated who had the original strain back in 2020 would be at risk of a serious outcome from Omicron even if they were as healthy as, say, a professional athlete e.g. a tennis player...
molto tricky

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Re: Reinfection

Post by jdc » Thu Jan 06, 2022 7:02 pm

Herainestold wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 6:14 pm
Can you get Omicron and Delta at the same time?
Probably. There are (rare) documented cases of people being infected with two covid variants at the same time. I posted links somewhere recently, possibly on the Omicron thread.
Herainestold wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 6:14 pm
One in the nose and throat, the other in the lungs?
I doubt it works like that. If you had two covid infections I think they'd both be happily multiplying in in your bronchus before moving to new accommodation in your lungs. (Omicron is better at infecting the bronchus and Delta better at infecting lung tissue but they do both infect both bronchus and lungs.)

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Re: Reinfection

Post by Herainestold » Thu Jan 06, 2022 7:11 pm

jdc wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 7:02 pm
Herainestold wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 6:14 pm
Can you get Omicron and Delta at the same time?
Probably. There are (rare) documented cases of people being infected with two covid variants at the same time. I posted links somewhere recently, possibly on the Omicron thread.
Herainestold wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 6:14 pm
One in the nose and throat, the other in the lungs?
I doubt it works like that. If you had two covid infections I think they'd both be happily multiplying in in your bronchus before moving to new accommodation in your lungs. (Omicron is better at infecting the bronchus and Delta better at infecting lung tissue but they do both infect both bronchus and lungs.)
I don't know how it works but two covid variants both circulating in the same population could have catastrophic results.
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Re: Reinfection

Post by jdc » Thu Jan 06, 2022 7:29 pm


Herainestold
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Re: Reinfection

Post by Herainestold » Thu Jan 06, 2022 7:46 pm

jdc wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 7:29 pm
This was the post: viewtopic.php?f=19&t=2971&p=106963&hili ... um#p106963
Thanks. I had missed that.
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Re: Reinfection

Post by Herainestold » Thu Feb 10, 2022 4:28 pm

A good little explanatory bit in the American NPR about reinfection and immunity.
Does this mean I won't get reinfected if I've had COVID or even better, have had COVID and am fully vaccinated?

Unfortunately, the answer is no.

"Reinfections are not just possible, they're pretty much inevitable," says evolutionary biologist Jeffrey Townsend at Yale University. "At least all the evidence that we have now says that that's true."

To estimate how often reinfections will occur with SARS-CoV-2, Townsend and his team have been studying four other coronaviruses. They are known as "seasonal coronaviruses" and cause about 30% of colds each year.

"They all infect and reinfect on a yearly timescale," he says, "so there's no reason to expect something different from SARS-CoV-2."

The risk of reinfection is likely very low right after you're sick — up to about four months or so afterwards, Townsend and his team estimate. Then the risk grows. And their data suggest that, on average, people will be reinfected every year or two with SARS-CoV-2. "It is very rare for reinfection to happen on a very short timescale, but on a longer timescale, it seems to happen with some frequency," he says.
Not very encouraging from the point of view of Long Covid and associated morbidities. We are going to suffer recurring illness for the rest of our days.

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandso ... ium=social
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