Antivax talking points

Get your science fix here: research, quackery, activism and all the rest
Post Reply
User avatar
jimbob
Dorkwood
Posts: 1016
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 4:04 pm
Location: High Peak/Manchester

Antivax talking points

Post by jimbob » Tue Jun 02, 2020 7:14 pm

I seem to have been dragged into a 5G-Antivax rabbit hole.

It's got me thinking - are there common talking points that the pro-diseasers like?

So far I have
How is it that smallpox is 5 times more likely to be fatal in the vaccinated than the unvaccinated? Dr. L.A. Parry
Which was news to me.
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

User avatar
Martin Y
Dorkwood
Posts: 992
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:08 pm

Re: Antivax talking points

Post by Martin Y » Tue Jun 02, 2020 7:31 pm

I think that one comes from the same playbook as the vaxxtroll on Bad Science I mentioned previously.

There was a logical answer, which I think started with working out exactly what their claim actually meant, and it all just fell into place that they were a dissembling piece of sh.t. But I'm afraid I don't remember how it went, now.

User avatar
Martin Y
Dorkwood
Posts: 992
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:08 pm

Re: Antivax talking points

Post by Martin Y » Tue Jun 02, 2020 7:54 pm

Having thunk a bit more, I perhaps remember it was a reference to the time when routine smallpox inoculation was dropped as the disease was no longer a threat. I suspect it required the troll's adamant refusal to acknowledge that eczema vaccinatum is not smallpox, so he could claim that more people were dying "of smallpox" through being vaccinated against it than by catching the disease.

So IIRC the claim was actually that there was a time when more people were dying because populations were being vaccinated against smallpox than were dying of smallpox. Which, as smallpox was eradicated, was strictly true and was of course the reason to stop vaccinating.

The bit about pretending eczema vaccinatum was smallpox was just extra bamboozling window dressing to make it sound as if the claim was that vaccination made the disease more lethal.

User avatar
jimbob
Dorkwood
Posts: 1016
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 4:04 pm
Location: High Peak/Manchester

Re: Antivax talking points

Post by jimbob » Tue Jun 02, 2020 8:02 pm

Nice, thanks.

I also have this gem from another, which um...
ALL radiowaves are man-made quantum fields and heavily polluted because our transmitters are cheap and crappy.
I really feel for Rosewind doing a lot of this...
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

User avatar
dyqik
After Pie
Posts: 1932
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:19 pm
Location: Masshole
Contact:

Re: Antivax talking points

Post by dyqik » Tue Jun 02, 2020 8:48 pm

jimbob wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 8:02 pm
Nice, thanks.

I also have this gem from another, which um...
ALL radiowaves are man-made quantum fields and heavily polluted because our transmitters are cheap and crappy.
I really feel for Rosewind doing a lot of this...
Ask them about pulsars. And the 1% of background noise that comes from the Big Bang.

Also, ask them to buy you a cheap powerful transmitter so you can test their claims.

User avatar
jimbob
Dorkwood
Posts: 1016
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 4:04 pm
Location: High Peak/Manchester

Re: Antivax talking points

Post by jimbob » Tue Jun 02, 2020 8:55 pm

dyqik wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 8:48 pm
jimbob wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 8:02 pm
Nice, thanks.

I also have this gem from another, which um...
ALL radiowaves are man-made quantum fields and heavily polluted because our transmitters are cheap and crappy.
I really feel for Rosewind doing a lot of this...
Ask them about pulsars. And the 1% of background noise that comes from the Big Bang.

Also, ask them to buy you a cheap powerful transmitter so you can test their claims.
I'd gone for:
So how do individual man-made photons differ from natural photons of the same energy?
It's Twitter, so limited for length.
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

User avatar
dyqik
After Pie
Posts: 1932
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:19 pm
Location: Masshole
Contact:

Re: Antivax talking points

Post by dyqik » Tue Jun 02, 2020 9:07 pm

jimbob wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 8:55 pm
I'd gone for:
So how do individual man-made photons differ from natural photons of the same energy?
It's Twitter, so limited for length.
If they insist there's a difference, ask them what the exchange symmetry between man-made and natural photons is.

User avatar
murmur
Snowbonk
Posts: 383
Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2019 11:09 am
Location: West of the fields

Re: Antivax talking points

Post by murmur » Wed Jun 03, 2020 11:29 am

jimbob wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 8:02 pm
Nice, thanks.

I also have this gem from another, which um...
ALL radiowaves are man-made quantum fields and heavily polluted because our transmitters are cheap and crappy.
I really feel for Rosewind doing a lot of this...
You just can't argue with someone that RONG: time to play to the rest of the audience, especially those wot know sod all about that physics...Or astronomy...Or anything much really...
It's so much more attractive inside the moral kiosk

User avatar
jimbob
Dorkwood
Posts: 1016
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 4:04 pm
Location: High Peak/Manchester

Re: Antivax talking points

Post by jimbob » Wed Jun 03, 2020 2:24 pm

murmur wrote:
Wed Jun 03, 2020 11:29 am
jimbob wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 8:02 pm
Nice, thanks.

I also have this gem from another, which um...
ALL radiowaves are man-made quantum fields and heavily polluted because our transmitters are cheap and crappy.
I really feel for Rosewind doing a lot of this...
You just can't argue with someone that RONG: time to play to the rest of the audience, especially those wot know sod all about that physics...Or astronomy...Or anything much really...
Yes, I have managed to not use any more technical language than my question about the difference between natural and man-made photons (something that makes me feel stupider, every time I type those words).

The guy does seem to be convincing his acolytes that he's an expert, and I deliberately haven't mentioned my physics degree...

It's like a Twitter flypaper.

But might be worth a visit for all the talking points.

Apparently my photo of the smallpox twins in response was not evidence but an emotive photo. But random YouTube videos are fine.
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

User avatar
murmur
Snowbonk
Posts: 383
Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2019 11:09 am
Location: West of the fields

Re: Antivax talking points

Post by murmur » Wed Jun 03, 2020 5:15 pm

And...What the f.cking f.ck is a "quantum field"?

I'd love to know how this berk defines that. And The Bread Goddess is very curious about how that "pollution" comes about. I wondered if it's akin to lumpy electricity (read that somewhere recently, although, given that I just re-read a couple of Flann O'Brien novels, it could've been a De Selby-ism).
It's so much more attractive inside the moral kiosk

User avatar
jimbob
Dorkwood
Posts: 1016
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 4:04 pm
Location: High Peak/Manchester

Re: Antivax talking points

Post by jimbob » Wed Jun 03, 2020 5:43 pm

murmur wrote:
Wed Jun 03, 2020 5:15 pm
And...What the f.cking f.ck is a "quantum field"?

I'd love to know how this berk defines that. And The Bread Goddess is very curious about how that "pollution" comes about. I wondered if it's akin to lumpy electricity (read that somewhere recently, although, given that I just re-read a couple of Flann O'Brien novels, it could've been a De Selby-ism).
https://twitter.com/etchmo/status/12679 ... 02469?s=20
The FIELD is NOT an individual photon.
You know how free radicals work?
Also the energy is not the same. The moment you generate your own field, you are controlling how that energy works. Which is not in harmony with natural resonance.
Which probably doesn't answer your question
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

User avatar
murmur
Snowbonk
Posts: 383
Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2019 11:09 am
Location: West of the fields

Re: Antivax talking points

Post by murmur » Thu Jun 04, 2020 10:20 am

You're right: but it does confirm that he can't.

"Natural resonance", FFS.
It's so much more attractive inside the moral kiosk

User avatar
jimbob
Dorkwood
Posts: 1016
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 4:04 pm
Location: High Peak/Manchester

Re: Antivax talking points

Post by jimbob » Thu Jun 04, 2020 2:56 pm

murmur wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 10:20 am
You're right: but it does confirm that he can't.

"Natural resonance", FFS.
Indeed, and dyqik has joined the conversation, which has led to some even stranger claims - like there being no difference between the disciplines of physics and public health.

One thing that I did notice was the frog emoji in one of the twitter handles. I suspect it might be a pepe the frog symbol. I'm guessing white supremacy is common in that mix.
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

tom p
Catbabel
Posts: 625
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:14 pm
Location: the low countries

Re: Antivax talking points

Post by tom p » Thu Jun 04, 2020 3:10 pm

jimbob wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 2:56 pm
murmur wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 10:20 am
You're right: but it does confirm that he can't.

"Natural resonance", FFS.
Indeed, and dyqik has joined the conversation, which has led to some even stranger claims - like there being no difference between the disciplines of physics and public health.
To be fair, physicists do that sort of thing a lot - everything is physics to them, when you boil it down

User avatar
dyqik
After Pie
Posts: 1932
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:19 pm
Location: Masshole
Contact:

Re: Antivax talking points

Post by dyqik » Thu Jun 04, 2020 6:24 pm

tom p wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 3:10 pm
jimbob wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 2:56 pm
murmur wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 10:20 am
You're right: but it does confirm that he can't.

"Natural resonance", FFS.
Indeed, and dyqik has joined the conversation, which has led to some even stranger claims - like there being no difference between the disciplines of physics and public health.
To be fair, physicists do that sort of thing a lot - everything is physics to them, when you boil it down
I am the physicist in the discussion. And I was careful to only discuss physics. To which the response was a demand for health studies that show the physics to be correct.

tom p
Catbabel
Posts: 625
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:14 pm
Location: the low countries

Re: Antivax talking points

Post by tom p » Thu Jun 04, 2020 6:27 pm

I know.
It was a joke as I pretended to misunderstand who was making the silly claim, based on something I'd heard on the infinite monkey cage earlier today (and hear a lot), about everything being physics really. When you get down to it.

Lew Dolby
Clardic Fug
Posts: 144
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:59 pm
Location: Shropshire - Welsh Borders

Re: Antivax talking points

Post by Lew Dolby » Thu Jun 04, 2020 6:42 pm

tom p wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 6:27 pm
I know.
It was a joke as I pretended to misunderstand who was making the silly claim, based on something I'd heard on the infinite monkey cage earlier today (and hear a lot), about everything being physics really. When you get down to it.
No, No, No. Every thing is Maths when you get down to it - especially today's cutting edge Physics.

There's even an XKCD for it - https://xkcd.com/435/

User avatar
dyqik
After Pie
Posts: 1932
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:19 pm
Location: Masshole
Contact:

Re: Antivax talking points

Post by dyqik » Thu Jun 04, 2020 7:09 pm

Lew Dolby wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 6:42 pm
tom p wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 6:27 pm
I know.
It was a joke as I pretended to misunderstand who was making the silly claim, based on something I'd heard on the infinite monkey cage earlier today (and hear a lot), about everything being physics really. When you get down to it.
No, No, No. Every thing is Maths when you get down to it - especially today's cutting edge Physics.

There's even an XKCD for it - https://xkcd.com/435/
Nah. Maths is what you get when you remove the science from physics. :P

User avatar
Little waster
Snowbonk
Posts: 519
Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2019 12:35 am
Location: About 1 inch behind my eyes

Re: Antivax talking points

Post by Little waster » Fri Jun 05, 2020 8:54 am

dyqik wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 7:09 pm
Lew Dolby wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 6:42 pm
tom p wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 6:27 pm
I know.
It was a joke as I pretended to misunderstand who was making the silly claim, based on something I'd heard on the infinite monkey cage earlier today (and hear a lot), about everything being physics really. When you get down to it.
No, No, No. Every thing is Maths when you get down to it - especially today's cutting edge Physics.

There's even an XKCD for it - https://xkcd.com/435/
Nah. Maths is what you get when you remove the science from physics. :P
Physics is to mathematics what sex is to m.st.rbation - Feynman
Shamelessly recycling old jokes since 1952.

User avatar
Little waster
Snowbonk
Posts: 519
Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2019 12:35 am
Location: About 1 inch behind my eyes

Re: Antivax talking points

Post by Little waster » Fri Jun 05, 2020 9:05 am

Also, this one seems appropriate.

https://xkcd.com/793/
Shamelessly recycling old jokes since 1952.

Post Reply