Scrutable

Hi guys, I am john from united states as well know there is almost a disaster that is happening in america right now because of the COVID19 outbreak. Lots of people have lost their loved ones and also few of them have been hit economically. Right now there is a lot of emphasis on face masks and lot of people let me by wearing face mask we are safe from virus. Is it true? I have seen a lot of my friends get infected by virus even though they are wearing mask. I don't get the idea behind it.

The research is changing all the time but the last thing I saw about this that I trusted was an episode of Science Vs called 'The Mask Wars". It turns out there's very little research on the effectiveness of masks in a non-clinical setting, and even less research on home-made masks so it's really hard to tell how effective they are. The research as of last month is inconclusive: there's no strong evidence to suggest they help, there's no strong evidence to suggest they make things worse.

There is a lack of clear guidance on how to put masks on, how to wear them, how to remove them and how to store/wash/dispose of them. PPE only protects you when it's used correctly and more often they're not. It's also not clear what the masks are supposed to be doing. In clinical settings masks are often there to prevent contamination from the mask-wearer to others. But it seems like they are now being used as a defence to prevent the mask-wearer from getting infected from other people. Masks can help with that, but mostly through preventing easy access to the nose and mouth by hands and constantly pulling down the mask to scratch yourself or to make yourself more easily heard or understood instantly negates their use.

I'm not an expert in any of this but I've tried to listen to people who are and from what I can see there's the theoretical benefit and there's the actual 'irl' benefit. In clinical settings where people have been trained to use and dispose of masks they are invaluable in stopping the spread of the virus. Out in 'everyday life', where people are wearing masks despite lacking training and with no understanding of what they are doing, masks are likely to be ineffective. My biggest concern is that wearing a mask makes people feel safer than they actually are so they reduce other measures - social distancing, regularly washing hands, etc - which then makes them more susceptible to getting sick. Masks are a wonderfully visual way of saying 'we're doing something, I'm just not sure that they're anything more than that.

If you educate yourself , use them properly, and follow the other rules, they are useful.
The Science Vs podcast episode cited above does say that surgical or procedure masks are better than cloth. The argument has always been that those masks should be reserved for medical people. I am seeming many of them for sale now, so the supply seems to have increased in some mysterious way,
so maybe they are an option.

Other than that, what fishnut said.

headshot wrote: ↑

Thu Jun 04, 2020 12:24 pm

Link here

I'd prefer it if we didn't reply to potential new folk with snarky "let me google that for you" responses.

Stephanie wrote: ↑

Thu Jun 04, 2020 1:41 pm

headshot wrote: ↑

Thu Jun 04, 2020 12:24 pm

Link here

I'd prefer it if we didn't reply to potential new folk with snarky "let me google that for you" responses.

Fair enough. But why not do a little reading up first!?

headshot wrote: ↑

Thu Jun 04, 2020 2:04 pm

Stephanie wrote: ↑

Thu Jun 04, 2020 1:41 pm

headshot wrote: ↑

Thu Jun 04, 2020 12:24 pm

Link here

I'd prefer it if we didn't reply to potential new folk with snarky "let me google that for you" responses.

Fair enough. But why not do a little reading up first!?

Not everyone is aware of the right resources to look at, and searching for things, particularly when it relates to covid, can bring up lots of conflicting information.

headshot wrote: ↑

Thu Jun 04, 2020 2:04 pm

Stephanie wrote: ↑

Thu Jun 04, 2020 1:41 pm

I'd prefer it if we didn't reply to potential new folk with snarky "let me google that for you" responses.

Fair enough. But why not do a little reading up first!?

It's not necessarily obvious where to look for trustworthy stuff to read.

Mrs Y still manages to get along with one of her most woo-minded and conspiracist friends by their simply accepting that they have "different areas of trust". (Friend tends to distrust "official" advice precisely because it is official, and also tends to fall for anything plausibly wholesome sounding even if it's nonsense.)

headshot wrote: ↑

Thu Jun 04, 2020 2:04 pm

Stephanie wrote: ↑

Thu Jun 04, 2020 1:41 pm

headshot wrote: ↑

Thu Jun 04, 2020 12:24 pm

Link here

I'd prefer it if we didn't reply to potential new folk with snarky "let me google that for you" responses.

Fair enough. But why not do a little reading up first!?

Who says they didn't? Who says they feel comfortable deciding which arguments are valid and which aren't? It's a really complicated topic and we should be pleased that this place is being seen as somewhere to come for help, but it won't be for long if all we do is snark at people.

These recent academic exchanges suggest that there is probably not much benefit for wearing face masks to protect oneself, but that they have a potential general societal benefit in protecting other people from you (if you are asymptomatic you are less likely to be unwittingly spreading it around if you wear a mask in public)

https://www.bmj.com/content/369/bmj.m1435

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/jep.13415

Having read these, I decided to wear a cloth home-made one on a trip to the local co-op and I think there is a potential for unintended consequences in behaviour change, in that even though I knew I was wearing it for the benefit of others, I felt more protected because of wearing it. I think this could easily translate into more risky behaviour because I'm OK because I'm wearing a mask.

I hadn't realised that masks aren't compulsory in the UK.

We've had to wear them here (Portugal) before being allowed to enter shops since March, and a lot of people keep them on when walking around in public generally.

The message from the authorities has always been that masks are not intended to protect the wearer, but to minimise the risk to others.

Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑

Thu Jun 04, 2020 3:38 pm

I hadn't realised that masks aren't compulsory in the UK.

We've had to wear them here (Portugal) before being allowed to enter shops since March, and a lot of people keep them on when walking around in public generally.

The message from the authorities has always been that masks are not intended to protect the wearer, but to minimise the risk to others.

I get looked at like a mad woman by some people when I wear a mask to the supermarket. If I see a fellow mask wearer (maybe 3 or 4 during the whole shop max) it feels like being part of an exclusive club.

discovolante wrote: ↑

Thu Jun 04, 2020 3:50 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑

Thu Jun 04, 2020 3:38 pm

I hadn't realised that masks aren't compulsory in the UK.

We've had to wear them here (Portugal) before being allowed to enter shops since March, and a lot of people keep them on when walking around in public generally.

The message from the authorities has always been that masks are not intended to protect the wearer, but to minimise the risk to others.

I get looked at like a mad woman by some people when I wear a mask to the supermarket. If I see a fellow mask wearer (maybe 3 or 4 during the whole shop max) it feels like being part of an exclusive club.

f.ck me, no wonder it's proving so hard to control the spread if everyone's just walking around breathing onto everything.

A useful rule of thumb with coronavirus response seems to be "If the UK government isn't doing it, it's probably a good idea".

Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑

Thu Jun 04, 2020 3:53 pm

discovolante wrote: ↑

Thu Jun 04, 2020 3:50 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑

Thu Jun 04, 2020 3:38 pm

I hadn't realised that masks aren't compulsory in the UK.

We've had to wear them here (Portugal) before being allowed to enter shops since March, and a lot of people keep them on when walking around in public generally.

The message from the authorities has always been that masks are not intended to protect the wearer, but to minimise the risk to others.

I get looked at like a mad woman by some people when I wear a mask to the supermarket. If I see a fellow mask wearer (maybe 3 or 4 during the whole shop max) it feels like being part of an exclusive club.

f.ck me, no wonder it's proving so hard to control the spread if everyone's just walking around breathing onto everything.

A useful rule of thumb with coronavirus response seems to be "If the UK government isn't doing it, it's probably a good idea".

Nobody gives a sh.t. Some shops seem to be worse than others but yeah, masks are still an oddity and social distancing is completely ignored by loads of people. No wonder I don't like leaving the house

Only three months late: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... in-england

Wear a mask, it protects other people.

I've heard from my sister in central London that she's not seen masks for sale anywhere in shops. Does anyone know where they can be reliably sourced in the UK - online or in meatspace?

Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑

Thu Jun 04, 2020 4:30 pm

I've heard from my sister in central London that she's not seen masks for sale anywhere in shops. Does anyone know where they can be reliably sourced in the UK - online or in meatspace?

I'm sure they'll turn up...be out of stock for a while and then settle down, but in the meantime I got mine from https://blindsave.com/ which is Latvian and took about a week to arrive. On staemtraen's recommendation. You can only get a pack of 5 but the material is quite thick. The only thing I would say is that the ear elastic is quite thin and can be a bit uncomfy after a while, but they are also adjustable round the ears and nose.

Also I had problems ordering and ended up getting them from their EU site after an email exchange with them trying to sort it out.

Another question from my family WhatsApp group, but hopefully of wider interest:

My mum works with old folks, and is looking into getting a face visor from Vistaprint https://www.vistaprint.co.uk/clothing-bags/face-shields as they're more comfortable for long-term use than the homemade cloth masks she's currently got. Does anyone know if this kind of design is reliable?

I don't know about reliable but they're certainly of a style I've been seeing more now, including at the minor injuries unit which I had to visit at the weekend. Part of me wants to say that if medical staff are wearing them that's probably a sign they work, but then I remember that one of the first people I saw wearing a mask was a pharmacist and she had it down over her chin instead of her mouth so maybe they aren't the paragon of judgement aftet all.

I think there's something about the discipline of wearing a mask that also helps with other useful behaviours.

I work in construction and the guy who doesn't wear his PPE is often the guy who is sloppy about quality, timekeeping etc.

Having said that, I've not been wearing a mask. I also don't wear a cycle helmet.

discovolante wrote: ↑

Thu Jun 04, 2020 3:50 pm

I get looked at like a mad woman by some people when I wear a mask to the supermarket. If I see a fellow mask wearer (maybe 3 or 4 during the whole shop max) it feels like being part of an exclusive club.

It's the same in London. Signs everywhere saying please wear face coverings on public transport. On the last bus I took, nobody else had one. It's usually been about a third of the people I see on the tube. Similar proportion in shops.

Interestingly, just had emails from BA and Virgin about their plans to make flights safe(r). Both said you have to wear masks on their flights. Virgin will provide them along with hand sanitiser. BA said they last* about 4 hours so make sure you bring enough with you. :eyeroll:

*presumably "lasting" is a variable depending on the type of mask?

gosling wrote: ↑

Thu Jun 04, 2020 5:00 pm

discovolante wrote: ↑

Thu Jun 04, 2020 3:50 pm

I get looked at like a mad woman by some people when I wear a mask to the supermarket. If I see a fellow mask wearer (maybe 3 or 4 during the whole shop max) it feels like being part of an exclusive club.

It's the same in London. Signs everywhere saying please wear face coverings on public transport. On the last bus I took, nobody else had one. It's usually been about a third of the people I see on the tube. Similar proportion in shops.

Interestingly, just had emails from BA and Virgin about their plans to make flights safe(r). Both said you have to wear masks on their flights. Virgin will provide them along with hand sanitiser. BA said they last* about 4 hours so make sure you bring enough with you. :eyeroll:

*presumably "lasting" is a variable depending on the type of mask?

The common disposable surgical one is said to last about 4 hours because then it's too damp.

gosling wrote: ↑

Thu Jun 04, 2020 5:00 pm

It's the same in London. Signs everywhere saying please wear face coverings on public transport. On the last bus I took, nobody else had one. It's usually been about a third of the people I see on the tube.

Masks become compulsory on public transport across England from 15th June, so, you know, just hold your breath a little longer.

Fishnut wrote: ↑

Thu Jun 04, 2020 4:44 pm

I don't know about reliable but they're certainly of a style I've been seeing more now, including at the minor injuries unit which I had to visit at the weekend. Part of me wants to say that if medical staff are wearing them that's probably a sign they work, but then I remember that one of the first people I saw wearing a mask was a pharmacist and she had it down over her chin instead of her mouth so maybe they aren't the paragon of judgement aftet all.

They're allowed here as well, and the government advice has generally been sound.

One advantage is that deaf people who rely on lip reading can still understand you through a visor, but not a mask.

ETA also I think part of the issue with masks is that they're constantly 'in your face', itchy and awkward and make it a bit trickier to breathe. Wearing is visor is simpler, more comfortable, and I guess after a while you can just see through it and forget it's on.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/202 ... oronavirus

Tl;dr yes, a bit.