Havana syndrome

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Re: Havana syndrome

Post by Woodchopper » Sun Jul 18, 2021 12:41 pm

jimbob wrote:
Sun Jul 18, 2021 12:22 pm
dyqik wrote:
Tue Jul 06, 2021 1:12 pm
Woodchopper wrote:
Mon Jul 05, 2021 10:14 am


Yes, indeed. This experimental microwave weapon is designed to shoot down small drone aircraft, and its mounted on a shipping container.
That only works because drones have sensitive microwave electronics onboard that can be jammed and disrupted. It's not at all relevant to this thread.

The pacemaker works at 17cm distance because it has a resonant antenna to receive the power. Remove that antenna, and the range would be ~1mm at best.
Indeed, but I guess that the diplomats would also have sensitive personal electronics - even if they could be more shielded than standard civilian electronics. To expand on your point - it is really hard to imagine some RF attack that manages to subtly harm a human whilst not causing glitches at least, or possibly permanent damage, in electronics that's not specifically designed to withstand it.
The National Academies report states that:

The absence, however, of electromagnetic disruption of other electronics within the immediate home/office environment suggests an upper bound to the RF energy, with implications for a potential RF system design. The average power densities associated with some of these effects (e.g., Frey effect hearing) are so low that they would not disrupt nearby electronics in a fashion similar to high-power microwaves (HPM) (Hoad, 2007; Jinshi et al., 2008).
Appendix C

http://www.nap.edu/download/25889

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Re: Havana syndrome

Post by dyqik » Sun Jul 18, 2021 12:58 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Sun Jul 18, 2021 12:25 pm
As far as I can tell nobody has confirmed one way or the other if there were electronic glitches.
If it hasn't been mentioned, it didn't happen, because it wouldn't be at all subtle. That's for actually harmful EM power, rather than a subtler auditory effect though.

This whole affair stinks of someone discovering that microwaves can cause effects, and then looking for reasons why this is caused by that, and then passing that on to other people. It feels like group think in action. Which has never happened with the US and Cuba before...

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Re: Havana syndrome

Post by jimbob » Sun Jul 18, 2021 10:17 pm

dyqik wrote:
Sun Jul 18, 2021 12:58 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Sun Jul 18, 2021 12:25 pm
As far as I can tell nobody has confirmed one way or the other if there were electronic glitches.
If it hasn't been mentioned, it didn't happen, because it wouldn't be at all subtle. That's for actually harmful EM power, rather than a subtler auditory effect though.

This whole affair stinks of someone discovering that microwaves can cause effects, and then looking for reasons why this is caused by that, and then passing that on to other people. It feels like group think in action. Which has never happened with the US and Cuba before...
Yup, if the Cuban authorities wanted to harass diplomats by making them hear things, I think that targeted loudspeakers would be a better option.
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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Re: Havana syndrome

Post by IvanV » Mon Jul 19, 2021 7:01 pm

You can now get Havana Syndrome in Vienna too, if you are a US diplomat.
BBC News: 'Havana syndrome'-like mystery illness affects Vienna US diplomats

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Re: Havana syndrome

Post by Bird on a Fire » Mon Jul 19, 2021 7:43 pm

jimbob wrote:
Sun Jul 18, 2021 10:17 pm
dyqik wrote:
Sun Jul 18, 2021 12:58 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Sun Jul 18, 2021 12:25 pm
As far as I can tell nobody has confirmed one way or the other if there were electronic glitches.
If it hasn't been mentioned, it didn't happen, because it wouldn't be at all subtle. That's for actually harmful EM power, rather than a subtler auditory effect though.

This whole affair stinks of someone discovering that microwaves can cause effects, and then looking for reasons why this is caused by that, and then passing that on to other people. It feels like group think in action. Which has never happened with the US and Cuba before...
Yup, if the Cuban authorities wanted to harass diplomats by making them hear things, I think that targeted loudspeakers would be a better option.
Not very subtle. A lot of spy stuff is supposed to be secretive and sneaky, or at least have plausible deniability.

The beauty of this new weapon is that it doesn't even have plausibility ;)
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Re: Havana syndrome

Post by jimbob » Mon Jul 19, 2021 10:28 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Mon Jul 19, 2021 7:43 pm
jimbob wrote:
Sun Jul 18, 2021 10:17 pm
dyqik wrote:
Sun Jul 18, 2021 12:58 pm


If it hasn't been mentioned, it didn't happen, because it wouldn't be at all subtle. That's for actually harmful EM power, rather than a subtler auditory effect though.

This whole affair stinks of someone discovering that microwaves can cause effects, and then looking for reasons why this is caused by that, and then passing that on to other people. It feels like group think in action. Which has never happened with the US and Cuba before...
Yup, if the Cuban authorities wanted to harass diplomats by making them hear things, I think that targeted loudspeakers would be a better option.
Not very subtle. A lot of spy stuff is supposed to be secretive and sneaky, or at least have plausible deniability.

The beauty of this new weapon is that it doesn't even have plausibility ;)
Nicely put.

I guess you could do some quite funky things with beat effects from ultrasound. If you want someone to hear noises in weird places as opposed to the mythical brown note.
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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Re: Havana syndrome

Post by Woodchopper » Fri Jul 23, 2021 3:39 am

CIA director interviewed on Havana Syndrome:

We still don't know for sure, but I am absolutely determined — and I've spent a great deal of time and energy on this in the four months I've been CIA director — to get to the bottom of the question of what and who caused this. On my first day on the job here, literally, I started meeting with victims of these kind of incidents. And I've continued to do that both here at headquarters and when I've traveled overseas as well, and I take very seriously what they've experienced and the threat that these kind of incidents posed.

So you're persuaded this is real.

I'm certainly persuaded that what our officers and some family members — as well as other U.S. government employees — have experienced is real and it's serious. And we are determined to get to the bottom of this. So the first challenge is to make sure people are getting the care that they deserve. So in my first week on the job, I went to Walter Reed Hospital, where our colleagues in the military have provided enormous support for those of our colleagues who have been affected by this, some of whom have been diagnosed with traumatic brain injury as well. So I wanted to thank those officers and medical personnel there. We've tripled the number of full-time medical personnel at CIA who are focused on these issues. We have reduced the amount of time it used to take to wait to get into Walter Reed for our officers from more than eight weeks to less than two weeks. So we're very focused on that. But at the same time, we have a very strong team of people — the best across CIA — focused on those questions of "What?" and "Who?", led by a very experienced and accomplished senior officer who, a decade ago, led the successful hunt for bin Laden. So we're throwing the very best we have at this issue because it is not only a very serious issue for our colleagues, as it is for others across the U.S. government, but it's a profound obligation, I think, of any leader to take care of your people, and that's what I'm determined to do.

How many cases are we talking?

There are probably a couple of hundred since Havana in 2016. There are probably a couple of hundred incidents across the U.S. government and across the globe. Of those couple of hundred, there's probably about 100 in which my colleagues, my officers and family members have been affected.

CIA are involved.

The government describes these as "anomalous health incidents," which sounds a lot more benign than "attacks." Are they attacks?

You know, we use the term "incidents" across the U.S. government, but the truth is, Mary Louise, that what matters most to me is the reality that whatever you call these, they're harming our colleagues here, my colleagues at CIA. And that's what we're determined to get to the bottom of.

When you say you're trying to figure out what's causing them and who is causing them, that suggests that this is someone taking action.

That's certainly a very strong possibility. The National Academy of Sciences, a year ago, in a very extensive report that they did, suggested that the most plausible theory for what caused this was some form of directed energy, and that sort of narrows, then, the number of potential suspects who could have used this, have used it historically and have the reach to do this in more than one part of the world, too. So, yeah, we're very focused on getting to the bottom of this.

Is it Russia?

Could be, but I honestly cannot — I don't want to suggest until we can draw some more definitive conclusions who it might be. But there are a number of possibilities.
https://www.npr.org/2021/07/22/10179005 ... liam-burns

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Re: Havana syndrome

Post by bmforre » Mon Aug 09, 2021 8:43 am

NYTimes report that plenty investigations reveal no trace of anything except diplomats and agents feeling spooked:
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/08/us/p ... stery.html

This is interpreted as evil enemy being particularly evil and clever.

Seeing that many us-ians believe vaccines contain navigation and reporting chips sucking power from host bodies and transmitting spydata back to chipmasters, there is certainly strong desire to believe ready to tap ...

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Re: Havana syndrome

Post by bmforre » Sat Aug 14, 2021 9:51 am

CIA officer will look for cause of Havana syndrome

I recommend they better try to hire The Witchsmeller Pursuivant.
Perhaps also bring in a Bloodhound for extra power of smelling.

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Re: Havana syndrome

Post by Bird on a Fire » Sat Aug 14, 2021 2:52 pm

They should also probably look into pulsed microwaves, for the sake of balance. Not sure how smelly they are.

The concern is some kind of Novichok program equivalent, but with pulsed energy weapons. While it's unlikely that genuine scientific advances about the human body and how to affect it could have come from a secret military research program, it's probably a good thing that somebody is taking this seriously, if only to have an idea of how best to treat the victims.
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Re: Havana syndrome

Post by bmforre » Sat Aug 14, 2021 4:08 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Sat Aug 14, 2021 2:52 pm
They should also probably look into pulsed microwaves, for the sake of balance...

... it's probably a good thing that somebody is taking this seriously ...
Safety issues of pulsed microwaves have been extensively studied in connection with radar sets on ships and boats.
Here's from HSE executive. Documents good safety margins.

This is from Trawler Forum. Sensible arguments. Also has illustrations of protective headwear that might calm anxious diplomats?

The CIA may possibly not be as well informed as Trawler Forum. Seafarers have long traditions of taking safety seriously.

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Re: Havana syndrome

Post by Woodchopper » Wed Aug 25, 2021 8:21 am

Vice President Kamala Harris was delayed Tuesday for more than three hours as she was departing from Singapore for Vietnam because of a report of a recent possible “anomalous health incident” in Hanoi, where she will discuss public health strategies and seek to bolster partnerships in the South China Sea, a crucial piece of President Biden’s strategy to counter the rising economic influence of China.

“Anomalous health incident” is how the Biden administration typically refers to cases of the so-called “Havana Syndrome” attacks, the unexplained headaches, dizziness and memory loss reported by scores of State Department officials, C.I.A. officers and their families.

A spokeswoman for Ms. Harris, Symone Sanders, assured reporters traveling with the vice president on her second foreign trip since taking office that her health was not affected.

[...]

Jen Psaki, the White House press secretary, said that the incident was not a confirmed case, but that it was reported publicly and “was not a person traveling in her party or anything along those lines.” Ms. Psaki said the vice president had not been in contact with anyone experiencing symptoms.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/24/us/p ... drome.html

If it is an actual effect I wonder whether its an unintended consequence of something that the US intelligence or diplomatic personnel are doing.

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Re: Havana syndrome

Post by dyqik » Wed Aug 25, 2021 11:30 am

Anomalous health incident is probably how the government would refer to any health incident that isn't a diagnosed condition and isn't believed to be serious or ongoing.

Labeling it Havana syndrome is likely just a reporter trying to keep the b.llsh.t about Havana syndrome going so they can write stories.

That entire story is scaremongering weasel words - "a plane was delayed to deal with a health incident on board from someone outside the vice presidents party" are the only facts given, or needed.

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Re: Havana syndrome

Post by monkey » Tue Sep 14, 2021 7:29 pm

Yeah, but they would say that, wouldn't they? - clicky

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Re: Havana syndrome

Post by Bird on a Fire » Tue Sep 14, 2021 9:51 pm

Interesting write-up from the BBC - tbh the most interesting thing is that they've finally got their act together in terms of collecting data from reported cases.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-58396698

But I also hadn't appreciated that there genuinely is a long history of anomalous microwave radiation being used against US embassy targets for 50-odd years, with associated* health problems, and evidence that the US government was covering up how much they knew.

*albeit far from conclusively proven (as far as public information goes)
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Re: Havana syndrome

Post by Martin Y » Wed Sep 15, 2021 2:36 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 9:51 pm
... But I also hadn't appreciated that there genuinely is a long history of anomalous microwave radiation being used against US embassy targets for 50-odd years, with associated* health problems, and evidence that the US government was covering up how much they knew.
The only case I was aware of was "The Thing" which was a bug hidden inside a large ornamental Great Seal of the US which the Soviets gifted to the US embassy in Moscow. It was energised by beaming high frequency radio at it from outside the building.

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Re: Havana syndrome

Post by jimbob » Tue Sep 28, 2021 5:36 pm

Martin Y wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 2:36 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 9:51 pm
... But I also hadn't appreciated that there genuinely is a long history of anomalous microwave radiation being used against US embassy targets for 50-odd years, with associated* health problems, and evidence that the US government was covering up how much they knew.
The only case I was aware of was "The Thing" which was a bug hidden inside a large ornamental Great Seal of the US which the Soviets gifted to the US embassy in Moscow. It was energised by beaming high frequency radio at it from outside the building.
That was the one that sprang to my mind. I seem to recall seeing about it in a Royal Institution Lecture as a kid
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Re: Havana syndrome

Post by bmforre » Wed Sep 29, 2021 7:53 am

WaPo yesterday:
The source of the ‘Havana syndrome’ must be found. National security demands it.
By the Editorial Board no less.
They go on:
After nearly five years, someone and something is still causing serious injury to U.S. officials abroad. The source of “Havana syndrome,” first detected in Cuba in late 2016, has not been identified nor attributed. The attacks — and they do seem to be deliberate attacks — now total more than 200 cases.
In contrast here's one readers comment:
I'm an epidemiologist with over thirty years experience, including several psychogenic epidemics.

"Havana Syndrome" is a classic case of a hysterical epidemic. The reason nobody can find a cause is because there isn't one.

The Washington Post Editorial Board does no favors in demanding yet more research. The "Havana Syndrome" conspiracy theory damages US relations and impedes our ability to influence the states where people have reported it.

A summary article published in Lancet last December says it best:
...the report finds little evidence of brain damage in the people involved and the committee highlights the heterogeneity of the symptoms, acknowledging that the proposal of a novel homogeneous syndrome due to a common cause is untenable.

The full Lancet article is available at https://doi.org/10.1016/S0140-6736(20)32711-2.
This treasonous opinion is decisively dismissed.

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Re: Havana syndrome

Post by bmforre » Thu Sep 30, 2021 4:44 am

Another readers proposal from the WaPo article:
One possibility i do not see mentioned is focussed infra sound.
It would not be detectable with standard EM detectors.
It also would be outside of human hearing range.
Immediately supported as "a good idea".

At 10 Hz f.ex. you have 30m+ wavelenght. This you're going to focus in a person size area??

Another thought: I expect there is considerable infrasound in the close vicinity of Niagara falls. Have the investigating authorities compared symptoms thereabouts and in the various locations where innocent diplomats report that they suffer?

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Re: Havana syndrome

Post by bmforre » Sat Oct 09, 2021 3:01 pm

Biden signs legislation
to aid U.S. personnel suffering from ‘Havana Syndrome’
So now the syndrome has been made properly real, embedded in Law no less.

EMF is not short for Electro-Motive Field.
It is for Evil Maximum Force. And the orld is full of this as the Holy Inquisition knew already long ago.

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Re: Havana syndrome

Post by Bird on a Fire » Wed Oct 13, 2021 9:43 pm

Now reported from Colombia as well https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-58893344
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Re: Havana syndrome

Post by sheldrake » Wed Oct 13, 2021 11:42 pm

Is it possible for low energy radio waves to mess with our biochemistry by hitting just the right resonant frequency?

A crude example is Kanzius' electrolysis of water molecules at 13.56 MHz (he originally got very excited because he thought he'd come up with a free energy source, which of course he hadn't, but he did split water into oxygen and hydrogen with radio), but something simillar but much less dramatic occurring in our nervous system over a prolonged period could make us feel groggy, presumably?

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Re: Havana syndrome

Post by Bird on a Fire » Thu Oct 14, 2021 10:04 am

sheldrake wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 11:42 pm
Is it possible for low energy radio waves to mess with our biochemistry by hitting just the right resonant frequency?

A crude example is Kanzius' electrolysis of water molecules at 13.56 MHz (he originally got very excited because he thought he'd come up with a free energy source, which of course he hadn't, but he did split water into oxygen and hydrogen with radio), but something simillar but much less dramatic occurring in our nervous system over a prolonged period could make us feel groggy, presumably?

The National Academy of Sciences report (I summarised it on page 1) suggested pulsed low-intensity RF as a mechanism, which can cause the sensation of sound via the Frey effect, and which the USSR was known to be experimenting with decades ago to develop weapons, apparently with some success. Using pulses rather than beams seems important.

As with Novichok, somebody could have continued to develop those capabilities to develop something a bit surprisingly effective. I wouldn't bet on much of the relevant information being public knowledge, at least at this stage, but the fact that two administrations are taking it seriously is interesting.

Mass psychogenic illness is also possible, of course, and the early cases don't have good epedemiological information.

Posters who know more than I do about physics seem convinced it's impossible to develop such a weapon, based on how non-military non-weapon technology works. It seems like it'd have to be an unknown biological phenomenon responsible, so that the pulsed energy could be used in a surprising way.
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Re: Havana syndrome

Post by Martin Y » Thu Oct 14, 2021 11:01 am

One not very surprising aspect of mass psychogenic illness appears to be that people get really upset by that diagnosis because they strongly resent the implication that they're "just imagining it". So the syndrome now seems to have gained new life from people being terribly cautious not to offend sufferers by dismissing external causes, which in turn is taken as support for their actually being external causes. Which there very probably aren't, IMHO.

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Re: Havana syndrome

Post by Woodchopper » Thu Oct 14, 2021 12:57 pm

It seems likely that the many cases have many different causes.

Mass mass psychogenic illness is possible, for example morgellons.

However, some of the people who claim to have been affected by Havana Syndrome have been examined by competent doctors who didn't diagnose a psychogenic illness, and did suggest that the people affected "have sustained injury to widespread brain networks without an associated history of head trauma."

I'd rather that internet randoms like me didn't assume that they know more than doctors who have actually examined those who claim to be affected by Havanna Syndrome.

Something unusual has happened, but I really don't know what. The mystery makes the case interesting.

[Edited to add link and delete repetition]

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