Havana syndrome

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Woodchopper
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Re: Havana syndrome

Post by Woodchopper » Sun Jul 18, 2021 12:41 pm

jimbob wrote:
Sun Jul 18, 2021 12:22 pm
dyqik wrote:
Tue Jul 06, 2021 1:12 pm
Woodchopper wrote:
Mon Jul 05, 2021 10:14 am


Yes, indeed. This experimental microwave weapon is designed to shoot down small drone aircraft, and its mounted on a shipping container.
That only works because drones have sensitive microwave electronics onboard that can be jammed and disrupted. It's not at all relevant to this thread.

The pacemaker works at 17cm distance because it has a resonant antenna to receive the power. Remove that antenna, and the range would be ~1mm at best.
Indeed, but I guess that the diplomats would also have sensitive personal electronics - even if they could be more shielded than standard civilian electronics. To expand on your point - it is really hard to imagine some RF attack that manages to subtly harm a human whilst not causing glitches at least, or possibly permanent damage, in electronics that's not specifically designed to withstand it.
The National Academies report states that:

The absence, however, of electromagnetic disruption of other electronics within the immediate home/office environment suggests an upper bound to the RF energy, with implications for a potential RF system design. The average power densities associated with some of these effects (e.g., Frey effect hearing) are so low that they would not disrupt nearby electronics in a fashion similar to high-power microwaves (HPM) (Hoad, 2007; Jinshi et al., 2008).
Appendix C

http://www.nap.edu/download/25889

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Re: Havana syndrome

Post by dyqik » Sun Jul 18, 2021 12:58 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Sun Jul 18, 2021 12:25 pm
As far as I can tell nobody has confirmed one way or the other if there were electronic glitches.
If it hasn't been mentioned, it didn't happen, because it wouldn't be at all subtle. That's for actually harmful EM power, rather than a subtler auditory effect though.

This whole affair stinks of someone discovering that microwaves can cause effects, and then looking for reasons why this is caused by that, and then passing that on to other people. It feels like group think in action. Which has never happened with the US and Cuba before...

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Re: Havana syndrome

Post by jimbob » Sun Jul 18, 2021 10:17 pm

dyqik wrote:
Sun Jul 18, 2021 12:58 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Sun Jul 18, 2021 12:25 pm
As far as I can tell nobody has confirmed one way or the other if there were electronic glitches.
If it hasn't been mentioned, it didn't happen, because it wouldn't be at all subtle. That's for actually harmful EM power, rather than a subtler auditory effect though.

This whole affair stinks of someone discovering that microwaves can cause effects, and then looking for reasons why this is caused by that, and then passing that on to other people. It feels like group think in action. Which has never happened with the US and Cuba before...
Yup, if the Cuban authorities wanted to harass diplomats by making them hear things, I think that targeted loudspeakers would be a better option.
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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Re: Havana syndrome

Post by IvanV » Mon Jul 19, 2021 7:01 pm

You can now get Havana Syndrome in Vienna too, if you are a US diplomat.
BBC News: 'Havana syndrome'-like mystery illness affects Vienna US diplomats

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Re: Havana syndrome

Post by Bird on a Fire » Mon Jul 19, 2021 7:43 pm

jimbob wrote:
Sun Jul 18, 2021 10:17 pm
dyqik wrote:
Sun Jul 18, 2021 12:58 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Sun Jul 18, 2021 12:25 pm
As far as I can tell nobody has confirmed one way or the other if there were electronic glitches.
If it hasn't been mentioned, it didn't happen, because it wouldn't be at all subtle. That's for actually harmful EM power, rather than a subtler auditory effect though.

This whole affair stinks of someone discovering that microwaves can cause effects, and then looking for reasons why this is caused by that, and then passing that on to other people. It feels like group think in action. Which has never happened with the US and Cuba before...
Yup, if the Cuban authorities wanted to harass diplomats by making them hear things, I think that targeted loudspeakers would be a better option.
Not very subtle. A lot of spy stuff is supposed to be secretive and sneaky, or at least have plausible deniability.

The beauty of this new weapon is that it doesn't even have plausibility ;)
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Re: Havana syndrome

Post by jimbob » Mon Jul 19, 2021 10:28 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Mon Jul 19, 2021 7:43 pm
jimbob wrote:
Sun Jul 18, 2021 10:17 pm
dyqik wrote:
Sun Jul 18, 2021 12:58 pm


If it hasn't been mentioned, it didn't happen, because it wouldn't be at all subtle. That's for actually harmful EM power, rather than a subtler auditory effect though.

This whole affair stinks of someone discovering that microwaves can cause effects, and then looking for reasons why this is caused by that, and then passing that on to other people. It feels like group think in action. Which has never happened with the US and Cuba before...
Yup, if the Cuban authorities wanted to harass diplomats by making them hear things, I think that targeted loudspeakers would be a better option.
Not very subtle. A lot of spy stuff is supposed to be secretive and sneaky, or at least have plausible deniability.

The beauty of this new weapon is that it doesn't even have plausibility ;)
Nicely put.

I guess you could do some quite funky things with beat effects from ultrasound. If you want someone to hear noises in weird places as opposed to the mythical brown note.
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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Woodchopper
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Re: Havana syndrome

Post by Woodchopper » Fri Jul 23, 2021 3:39 am

CIA director interviewed on Havana Syndrome:

We still don't know for sure, but I am absolutely determined — and I've spent a great deal of time and energy on this in the four months I've been CIA director — to get to the bottom of the question of what and who caused this. On my first day on the job here, literally, I started meeting with victims of these kind of incidents. And I've continued to do that both here at headquarters and when I've traveled overseas as well, and I take very seriously what they've experienced and the threat that these kind of incidents posed.

So you're persuaded this is real.

I'm certainly persuaded that what our officers and some family members — as well as other U.S. government employees — have experienced is real and it's serious. And we are determined to get to the bottom of this. So the first challenge is to make sure people are getting the care that they deserve. So in my first week on the job, I went to Walter Reed Hospital, where our colleagues in the military have provided enormous support for those of our colleagues who have been affected by this, some of whom have been diagnosed with traumatic brain injury as well. So I wanted to thank those officers and medical personnel there. We've tripled the number of full-time medical personnel at CIA who are focused on these issues. We have reduced the amount of time it used to take to wait to get into Walter Reed for our officers from more than eight weeks to less than two weeks. So we're very focused on that. But at the same time, we have a very strong team of people — the best across CIA — focused on those questions of "What?" and "Who?", led by a very experienced and accomplished senior officer who, a decade ago, led the successful hunt for bin Laden. So we're throwing the very best we have at this issue because it is not only a very serious issue for our colleagues, as it is for others across the U.S. government, but it's a profound obligation, I think, of any leader to take care of your people, and that's what I'm determined to do.

How many cases are we talking?

There are probably a couple of hundred since Havana in 2016. There are probably a couple of hundred incidents across the U.S. government and across the globe. Of those couple of hundred, there's probably about 100 in which my colleagues, my officers and family members have been affected.

CIA are involved.

The government describes these as "anomalous health incidents," which sounds a lot more benign than "attacks." Are they attacks?

You know, we use the term "incidents" across the U.S. government, but the truth is, Mary Louise, that what matters most to me is the reality that whatever you call these, they're harming our colleagues here, my colleagues at CIA. And that's what we're determined to get to the bottom of.

When you say you're trying to figure out what's causing them and who is causing them, that suggests that this is someone taking action.

That's certainly a very strong possibility. The National Academy of Sciences, a year ago, in a very extensive report that they did, suggested that the most plausible theory for what caused this was some form of directed energy, and that sort of narrows, then, the number of potential suspects who could have used this, have used it historically and have the reach to do this in more than one part of the world, too. So, yeah, we're very focused on getting to the bottom of this.

Is it Russia?

Could be, but I honestly cannot — I don't want to suggest until we can draw some more definitive conclusions who it might be. But there are a number of possibilities.
https://www.npr.org/2021/07/22/10179005 ... liam-burns

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