Mild hybrid cars

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sTeamTraen
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Mild hybrid cars

Post by sTeamTraen » Tue Jan 05, 2021 11:39 pm

We're coming up for a new car (currently driving a 12 year old Hyundai Getz with broken A/C). I would have liked a fully electric car or plug-in hybrid, but our electricity here in Majawkah is 97% fossil-generated (the rest of Spain is c. 50% nucular/renewables) and so I think it's probably actually greener in terms of CO2 to run on petrol. But it would be nice to be fuel-efficient and also to drive in town on battery occasionally.

I'm looking at the Suzuki Ignis, which is available here with CVT transmission. The engine is described as a "Mild Hybrid". Wiki suggests that this means that the hybrid battery can't drive the car on its own, but it complements the petrol engine. The battery is 0.37kWh, which seems tiny --- it's the equivalent of about 8 decent USB power banks. I'm not sure how it assists the engine --- is there a small electric motor that tries to give the drive shaft a bit of an extra tweak?

To be honest this sounds like quite lot of effort and "stuff to go wrong" for the environmental benefit, especially given our limited annual mileage (Majawkah is about the size of Essex), but I'm not sure what other small hybrid cars are available with the SUV-style high driving position and an automatic gearbox --- our car parking space is on a 12% slope with a sharp turn at the top and it's a bit stressful on the clutch and our nerves getting it out every time.
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nekomatic
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Re: Mild hybrid cars

Post by nekomatic » Wed Jan 06, 2021 1:00 am

I was going to say that all hybrids are automatic, but apparently not - almost all are though.

If you don’t drive that many km in a year then the environmental benefit of mild hybridisation is probably not a great deal.

Re ‘more to go wrong’, hybrids on average are said to be more reliable, although I think the jury may be out on whether this is because they incur less wear and tear on the engine and brakes or simply because on average they are made by Toyota.

philip
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Re: Mild hybrid cars

Post by philip » Wed Jan 06, 2021 12:03 pm

The 2021 model (on sale late 2020) has a 10Ah battery compared to earlier 3Ah. It is a 12v system so that is 0.12kWh in the new model compared to 0.036kWh in the old, which is indeed tiny. It might aid acceleration but will not drive the car for any distance, not really surprising when Suzuki claim the system adds only 6.2kg. Most electric bicycles have a bigger battery than this car, typically around 0.5kWh.
https://media.suzuki.co.uk/en-gb/models/ignis-hybrid
https://media.suzuki.co.uk/assets/docum ... ooklet.pdf

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Martin Y
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Re: Mild hybrid cars

Post by Martin Y » Wed Jan 06, 2021 1:18 pm

philip wrote:
Wed Jan 06, 2021 12:03 pm
The 2021 model (on sale late 2020) has a 10Ah battery compared to earlier 3Ah. It is a 12v system so that is 0.12kWh in the new model compared to 0.036kWh in the old, which is indeed tiny. It might aid acceleration but will not drive the car for any distance, not really surprising when Suzuki claim the system adds only 6.2kg. Most electric bicycles have a bigger battery than this car, typically around 0.5kWh.
https://media.suzuki.co.uk/en-gb/models/ignis-hybrid
https://media.suzuki.co.uk/assets/docum ... ooklet.pdf
The car's conventional battery is probably at least 3 times the capacity of that, and I see it still has a conventional starter motor as well as a fancy combined starter/generator (which does regenerative braking, start/stop and acceleration assistance). I'm sure they did their sums but it seems inelegant to duplicate parts.

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sTeamTraen
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Re: Mild hybrid cars

Post by sTeamTraen » Wed Jan 06, 2021 1:31 pm

I just want to say that the standard of English in that document, from someone who was presumably paid to write it, is absolutely execrable.
It follows strong Suzuki DNA from every pore, while at the same time introduced an entirely new design with unique character.
Suzuki first introduced its 1.2-litre Dualjet technlogy (K12C) in 2014, initially in the Swift, and then utilised in the Baleno model in June 2016 and Ignis in early 2017.
Available as standard equipment for all Ignis models, the upgraded 12V Hybrid system is a compact and lightweight unit that incorporates an Integrated Starter Generator (known as ISG) which acts as both a generator and starter motor, the ISG is belt driven and assists the engine during vehicle take off and acceleration and also generates electricity through regenerative braking.
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TAFKAsoveda
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Re: Mild hybrid cars

Post by TAFKAsoveda » Wed Jan 06, 2021 3:02 pm

Hyundai kona hybrid?
It’s on the smaller size and is a “self charging” hybrid rather than a plug in.

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lpm
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Re: Mild hybrid cars

Post by lpm » Wed Jan 06, 2021 3:08 pm

Self charging.

SELF CHARGING.
What ever happened to that Trump guy, you know, the one who was president for a bit?

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Re: Mild hybrid cars

Post by shpalman » Wed Jan 06, 2021 3:21 pm

My mum was confused by that, I did try to convince her that she'd still have to put petrol in.
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TAFKAsoveda
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Re: Mild hybrid cars

Post by TAFKAsoveda » Wed Jan 06, 2021 4:03 pm

I know, it’s a stupid marketing term to make it sound more electric!

I think I first saw it on a Lexus advert.

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Re: Mild hybrid cars

Post by shpalman » Wed Jan 06, 2021 4:16 pm

This was in the context of the Yaris which isn't available in pure-ICE anymore.

My mum also does very few miles these days so the cost of that extra efficiency wouldn't be worth it (and wouldn't offset the damage done by my sister and brother in law in their Jaggy Mc P-Face, the only thing electric about that is the blue colour of it).
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Re: Mild hybrid cars

Post by Grumble » Wed Jan 06, 2021 6:31 pm

Even when your grid is dirty an electric car may still be greener

https://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/ele ... -the-world
I know this is vitriol, no solution, spleen venting, but I feel better having screamed, don’t you?

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Re: Mild hybrid cars

Post by sTeamTraen » Wed Jan 06, 2021 7:21 pm

TAFKAsoveda wrote:
Wed Jan 06, 2021 3:02 pm
Hyundai kona hybrid?
It’s on the smaller size and is a “self charging” hybrid rather than a plug in.
It's a little big for our parking spot (think 1950s UK garage* where you can't get out of anything bigger than a Mini because the doors hit the wall) but it is on the radar.
Grumble wrote:
Wed Jan 06, 2021 6:31 pm
Even when your grid is dirty an electric car may still be greener
It's annoying that we don't have more local or island-wide solar here. We can't realistically charge a car from the 6m² of solar panels that we could fit on the roof of our parking space even if we could get permission to install them.




* The outbuilding, not the musical genre
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Grumble
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Re: Mild hybrid cars

Post by Grumble » Wed Jan 06, 2021 7:50 pm

sTeamTraen wrote:
Wed Jan 06, 2021 7:21 pm
Grumble wrote:
Wed Jan 06, 2021 6:31 pm
Even when your grid is dirty an electric car may still be greener
It's annoying that we don't have more local or island-wide solar here. We can't realistically charge a car from the 6m² of solar panels that we could fit on the roof of our parking space even if we could get permission to install them.
Yes, but this
sTeamTraen wrote:
Tue Jan 05, 2021 11:39 pm
I think it's probably actually greener in terms of CO2 to run on petrol
probably isn’t true, so if you want an electric car get one because if the CO2 is important to you it’s still better to charge electric off a dirty grid (that will hopefully get greener in years to come) than it is to run a petrol car. Unless your place is one of the 5% of course.
I know this is vitriol, no solution, spleen venting, but I feel better having screamed, don’t you?

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Re: Mild hybrid cars

Post by dyqik » Wed Jan 06, 2021 8:20 pm

Grumble wrote:
Wed Jan 06, 2021 7:50 pm
sTeamTraen wrote:
Tue Jan 05, 2021 11:39 pm
I think it's probably actually greener in terms of CO2 to run on petrol
probably isn’t true, so if you want an electric car get one because if the CO2 is important to you it’s still better to charge electric off a dirty grid (that will hopefully get greener in years to come) than it is to run a petrol car. Unless your place is one of the 5% of course.
Upthread steamy mentioned that the electricity where he is is 97% fossil fuel, so quite probably it is one of the 5%. A true hybrid like a Prius will be lower carbon on petrol than an electric, with the conversion costs.

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Re: Mild hybrid cars

Post by Bird on a Fire » Wed Jan 06, 2021 8:36 pm

dyqik wrote:
Wed Jan 06, 2021 8:20 pm
Grumble wrote:
Wed Jan 06, 2021 7:50 pm
sTeamTraen wrote:
Tue Jan 05, 2021 11:39 pm
I think it's probably actually greener in terms of CO2 to run on petrol
probably isn’t true, so if you want an electric car get one because if the CO2 is important to you it’s still better to charge electric off a dirty grid (that will hopefully get greener in years to come) than it is to run a petrol car. Unless your place is one of the 5% of course.
Upthread steamy mentioned that the electricity where he is is 97% fossil fuel, so quite probably it is one of the 5%. A true hybrid like a Prius will be lower carbon on petrol than an electric, with the conversion costs.
Based on a bit of googling, it looks like the Balearics get most of their leccy from a single coal plant. I'd be reasonably surprised if it hasn't been shut within the decade, given current trends with coal vs. renewables, so I guess it also depends on how long the Steamsters are planning to be using the car.
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TimW
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Re: Mild hybrid cars

Post by TimW » Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:59 am

There's a cable to the mainland grid, apparently:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cometa_(HVDC)

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Re: Mild hybrid cars

Post by jimbob » Thu Jan 07, 2021 12:04 pm

philip wrote:
Wed Jan 06, 2021 12:03 pm
The 2021 model (on sale late 2020) has a 10Ah battery compared to earlier 3Ah. It is a 12v system so that is 0.12kWh in the new model compared to 0.036kWh in the old, which is indeed tiny. It might aid acceleration but will not drive the car for any distance, not really surprising when Suzuki claim the system adds only 6.2kg. Most electric bicycles have a bigger battery than this car, typically around 0.5kWh.
https://media.suzuki.co.uk/en-gb/models/ignis-hybrid
https://media.suzuki.co.uk/assets/docum ... ooklet.pdf
From what I remember from my application engineer colleagues (some of the power MOSFETs we design and make go into mild hybrids) it's like a beefed up start-stop system, so if you're in queuing traffic, the first few yards acceleration could be entirely under battery.
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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