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mRNA vaccine against ticks for Lyme disease

Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2021 3:28 pm
by jimbob
https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.acx9658

neat idea
MRNA technology is now famous for delivering vaccines against COVID-19, and this week it achieved another distinction with an experimental Lyme preventive announced by the collaboration launched in Ireland. “It’s the first vaccine [intended for humans] against an infectious disease that does not target the pathogen,” Fikrig says. The mRNA vaccine, administered to guinea pigs, turned tick bites red and inflamed. The ticks fed poorly, fell off early, and often failed to transmit the Lyme-causing bacterium. Researchers hope the vaccine will one day work the same way in humans.
It’s “a beautiful study,” says Ruth Montgomery, a cellular immunologist at Yale who was not involved with the work. “Potentially a mechanism like this could be very important in a number of tick-borne diseases.”

Re: mRNA vaccine against ticks for Lyme disease

Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2021 3:35 pm
by tom p
ooh, that is a neat idea

Re: mRNA vaccine against ticks for Lyme disease

Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2021 3:51 pm
by discovolante
Oh that's awesome! (says she from an area full of tics and deer...).

Re: mRNA vaccine against ticks for Lyme disease

Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:50 pm
by sTeamTraen
As a former Lyme patient I can agree that it would be a very neat idea.

However, ticks transmit all kinds of horrible pathogens, and while it takes them 34-36 hours of being attached to cough up the lyme bacterium, they can also pass on viruses in a much shorter time frame (#1 son likely had tick-borne encephalitis as a teenager, and lost 60% of function in one ear).

Re: mRNA vaccine against ticks for Lyme disease

Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:44 am
by Bird on a Fire
Yes, very cool. I know quite a few people who've had very nasty Lyme cases, and I'm pretty nervous of it myself.

Re: mRNA vaccine against ticks for Lyme disease

Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 12:15 pm
by discovolante
Marginally off topic but is there any indication that some people are more attractive to tics than others? I (touch wood) mostly manage to avoid it through precautions, but a friend of ours always seems to end up covered in them when he comes to ours, no matter what. He has quite hairy legs though so it might be as simple as that. Señor von Laté gets caught a bit too but not quite as much, but he's maybe also a smidge less overboard with tucking socks in etc compared to me.

Re: mRNA vaccine against ticks for Lyme disease

Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 4:15 pm
by jimbob
discovolante wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 12:15 pm
Marginally off topic but is there any indication that some people are more attractive to tics than others? I (touch wood) mostly manage to avoid it through precautions, but a friend of ours always seems to end up covered in them when he comes to ours, no matter what. He has quite hairy legs though so it might be as simple as that. Señor von Laté gets caught a bit too but not quite as much, but he's maybe also a smidge less overboard with tucking socks in etc compared to me.
I wouldn't be surprised. We had a canoe camp near Simmonds Yat and one of the teenagers there was paranoid about ticks. He was one of the few people to actually get any.

Re: mRNA vaccine against ticks for Lyme disease

Posted: Sat Nov 27, 2021 5:56 pm
by Cardinal Fang
Don't know about ticks, but I know I'm a magnet for biting flying insects. Sibling never gets bitten. Me all the time, even with tropical strength DEET

I assume the same is probably true of ticks - they think some people are tastier than others.

CF

Re: mRNA vaccine against ticks for Lyme disease

Posted: Sat Nov 27, 2021 8:24 pm
by sTeamTraen
discovolante wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 12:15 pm
Marginally off topic but is there any indication that some people are more attractive to tics than others? I (touch wood) mostly manage to avoid it through precautions, but a friend of ours always seems to end up covered in them when he comes to ours, no matter what. He has quite hairy legs though so it might be as simple as that. Señor von Laté gets caught a bit too but not quite as much, but he's maybe also a smidge less overboard with tucking socks in etc compared to me.
Anecdotally, I attract >10x more tick bites than Mrs sTeamTraen, and she attracts >10x more mosquito bites than me.

Re: mRNA vaccine against ticks for Lyme disease

Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2021 1:41 am
by dyqik
I squash about two ticks a week, thanks to walking a dog in the woods where deer and mice are endemic. Except in summer, when it's to hot for them, so we have to worry about mosquitos carrying EEE and West Nile virus instead.

I've only been bitten once though, and caught it early enough that Lyme's wasn't an issue. My boss has had Lyme's twice in the last five years though

This is f.cking amazing news.

Re: mRNA vaccine against ticks for Lyme disease

Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2021 1:01 pm
by nezumi
I've never been bitten by a tick that I'm aware of. My Dad was hyper-careful about this stuff so skirts/shorts were simply not allowed on countryside walks.

Having said that, I'd rather be cautious and vigilant than take something that would make the experience of a tick bite feel worse. I hate, hate, hate being itchy. I just can't see it taking off. People are going to see the "makes you itchy" bit and give it a flat no without even considering that the risk of lyme disease in the UK is not high and that the treatment is perfectly adequate.

I suppose it might do better in the US because of the higher risk but then USians are famously rather vaccine averse.

Basically, I think it's a cute innovation and shows the potential of mRNA vaccines but it's not really useful so would be a waste of money to develop.

Re: mRNA vaccine against ticks for Lyme disease

Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2021 1:29 pm
by discovolante
sTeamTraen wrote:
Sat Nov 27, 2021 8:24 pm
discovolante wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 12:15 pm
Marginally off topic but is there any indication that some people are more attractive to tics than others? I (touch wood) mostly manage to avoid it through precautions, but a friend of ours always seems to end up covered in them when he comes to ours, no matter what. He has quite hairy legs though so it might be as simple as that. Señor von Laté gets caught a bit too but not quite as much, but he's maybe also a smidge less overboard with tucking socks in etc compared to me.
Anecdotally, I attract >10x more tick bites than Mrs sTeamTraen, and she attracts >10x more mosquito bites than me.
I dunno how hairy you are but I also tend to get more mozzie bitten than Señor von Laté so I do wonder whether mosquitos, being delicate flying creatures, are averse to body hair whereas ticks find it a handy thing to latch onto. Again pure speculation of course.

Re: mRNA vaccine against ticks for Lyme disease

Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2021 1:48 pm
by Bird on a Fire
nezumi wrote:
Sun Nov 28, 2021 1:01 pm
Having said that, I'd rather be cautious and vigilant than take something that would make the experience of a tick bite feel worse. I hate, hate, hate being itchy. I just can't see it taking off. People are going to see the "makes you itchy" bit and give it a flat no without even considering that the risk of lyme disease in the UK is not high and that the treatment is perfectly adequate.
Not sure what you mean by "perfectly adequate", but a huge proportion of outdoorsy young people I know have had it and it's often seriously nasty. One guy has been struggling with arthritis and fatigue for nearly a decade afterwards, and the treatment ruined his fertility right when they were about to try for kids.

I'd much, much rather be itchy than get Lyme, in the same way I'd rather have a bit of a sore arm than covid.

Re: mRNA vaccine against ticks for Lyme disease

Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2021 12:39 pm
by Gentleman Jim
The was a reasonably effective vaccine in LYMErix which fell foul of the antivaxxers despite FDA finding no suggestion of harm to recipients
Maybe worth noting that GSK settled for "commercial reasons", including over 1 million dollars in legal fees.


Epidemiol Infect. 2007 Jan; 135(1):1-8
The Lyme Vaccine: A Cautionary Tale

Re: mRNA vaccine against ticks for Lyme disease

Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2021 6:10 pm
by discovolante
Gentleman Jim wrote:
Mon Nov 29, 2021 12:39 pm
The was a reasonably effective vaccine in LYMErix which fell foul of the antivaxxers despite FDA finding no suggestion of harm to recipients
Maybe worth noting that GSK settled for "commercial reasons", including over 1 million dollars in legal fees.


Epidemiol Infect. 2007 Jan; 135(1):1-8
The Lyme Vaccine: A Cautionary Tale
I'm not suggesting that those claims had merit, but (in my experience at least) the vast majority of cases settle for 'commerical reasons' I.e. you would be very unlikely to get an admission of liability. So I wouldn't read too much into that particular aspect, as a general rule. Of course I'm only referring to my Britain-based experience but I guess it's the same elsewhere.

Re: mRNA vaccine against ticks for Lyme disease

Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 3:37 pm
by IvanV
nezumi wrote:
Sun Nov 28, 2021 1:01 pm
Basically, I think it's a cute innovation and shows the potential of mRNA vaccines but it's not really useful so would be a waste of money to develop.
In what sense "not useful"? I can understand it would not be a vaccine universally applied to the entire population. The question is whether the market for it is big enough to justify the investment. I'd be delighted to take it.

It's not like we are discussing a vaccine to protect humans against the ticks which can pass on louping ill to them - a disease of sheep which is occasionally passed on humans via a tick - which would only be of interest to shepherds.

Re: mRNA vaccine against ticks for Lyme disease

Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 5:16 pm
by jimbob
IvanV wrote:
Tue Nov 30, 2021 3:37 pm
nezumi wrote:
Sun Nov 28, 2021 1:01 pm
Basically, I think it's a cute innovation and shows the potential of mRNA vaccines but it's not really useful so would be a waste of money to develop.
In what sense "not useful"? I can understand it would not be a vaccine universally applied to the entire population. The question is whether the market for it is big enough to justify the investment. I'd be delighted to take it.

It's not like we are discussing a vaccine to protect humans against the ticks which can pass on louping ill to them - a disease of sheep which is occasionally passed on humans via a tick - which would only be of interest to shepherds.
Although if the vaccine targets sheep ticks as well as deer ticks, it possibly would provide some protection against that.

And maybe some similar approach for other diseases spread by biting insects/arachnids.

Re: mRNA vaccine against ticks for Lyme disease

Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 5:24 pm
by nezumi
IvanV wrote:
Tue Nov 30, 2021 3:37 pm
nezumi wrote:
Sun Nov 28, 2021 1:01 pm
Basically, I think it's a cute innovation and shows the potential of mRNA vaccines but it's not really useful so would be a waste of money to develop.
In what sense "not useful"? I can understand it would not be a vaccine universally applied to the entire population. The question is whether the market for it is big enough to justify the investment. I'd be delighted to take it.

It's not like we are discussing a vaccine to protect humans against the ticks which can pass on louping ill to them - a disease of sheep which is occasionally passed on humans via a tick - which would only be of interest to shepherds.
I just don't think Lyme disease is enough of a problem for people to choose to take a vaccine for it, so in my eyes at least the market isn't big enough - unless the investment is not a lot of money and I doubt that to be the case.

Re: mRNA vaccine against ticks for Lyme disease

Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 5:36 pm
by Bird on a Fire
It's enough of a problem if you end up with long-term disability because of it. If you get away with "just" a few weeks of flu symptoms, well personally I'd still be up for a jab but can see why others might not I guess.

But then I, like most people I know working in outdoorsy fields, get multiple ticks a year despite taking precautions*, and know several people who've been crippled by it for years. If I lived in a town and worked in an office I'd be less interested I guess.

Like the rabies jab (which I've also had) it'd probably be one for specialist populations.

*also pretty hairy, if we're keeping count.

Re: mRNA vaccine against ticks for Lyme disease

Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 5:47 pm
by WFJ
Most regularly outdoors people here in Germany, which is probably a much higher percentage of the population that in the UK, are vaccinated against TBE. I would imagine most would also take a Lyme vaccine if it was available.

Re: mRNA vaccine against ticks for Lyme disease

Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 7:24 pm
by IvanV
nezumi wrote:
Tue Nov 30, 2021 5:24 pm
I just don't think Lyme disease is enough of a problem for people to choose to take a vaccine for it, so in my eyes at least the market isn't big enough - unless the investment is not a lot of money and I doubt that to be the case.
[Lyme disease] is estimated to affect 300,000 people a year in the United States and 65,000 people a year in Europe. Usual unreliable source
The main problem area in Europe it's a problem is central European areas that have moist but reasonably warm summers, from Germany to Slovenia and Romania. As already mentioned, it is not uncommon to get vaccinated against tick-borne encephalitis in those areas.

Since in many areas of central Europe, outdoor enjoyment is not the niche activity it is in Britain and Ireland, I think there is a large demand base for it in Europe, and it seems even more in the US.

Re: mRNA vaccine against ticks for Lyme disease

Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 8:48 pm
by dyqik
IvanV wrote:
Tue Nov 30, 2021 7:24 pm
nezumi wrote:
Tue Nov 30, 2021 5:24 pm
I just don't think Lyme disease is enough of a problem for people to choose to take a vaccine for it, so in my eyes at least the market isn't big enough - unless the investment is not a lot of money and I doubt that to be the case.
[Lyme disease] is estimated to affect 300,000 people a year in the United States and 65,000 people a year in Europe. Usual unreliable source
The main problem area in Europe it's a problem is central European areas that have moist but reasonably warm summers, from Germany to Slovenia and Romania. As already mentioned, it is not uncommon to get vaccinated against tick-borne encephalitis in those areas.

Since in many areas of central Europe, outdoor enjoyment is not the niche activity it is in Britain and Ireland, I think there is a large demand base for it in Europe, and it seems even more in the US.
We get mice, white-tailed deer and the ticks they carry in our backyard, as do many people across the north east. Those ticks do carry Lyme. It's quite normal for kids to pick up ticks playing in their backyard. Many people pay for spraying or put out Tick-Tubes to try and cut down the risk.

Re: mRNA vaccine against ticks for Lyme disease

Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 9:12 pm
by dyqik
dyqik wrote:
Tue Nov 30, 2021 8:48 pm
IvanV wrote:
Tue Nov 30, 2021 7:24 pm
nezumi wrote:
Tue Nov 30, 2021 5:24 pm
I just don't think Lyme disease is enough of a problem for people to choose to take a vaccine for it, so in my eyes at least the market isn't big enough - unless the investment is not a lot of money and I doubt that to be the case.
[Lyme disease] is estimated to affect 300,000 people a year in the United States and 65,000 people a year in Europe. Usual unreliable source
The main problem area in Europe it's a problem is central European areas that have moist but reasonably warm summers, from Germany to Slovenia and Romania. As already mentioned, it is not uncommon to get vaccinated against tick-borne encephalitis in those areas.

Since in many areas of central Europe, outdoor enjoyment is not the niche activity it is in Britain and Ireland, I think there is a large demand base for it in Europe, and it seems even more in the US.
We get mice, white-tailed deer and the ticks they carry in our backyard, as do many people across the north east. Those ticks do carry Lyme. It's quite normal for kids to pick up ticks playing in their backyard. Many people pay for spraying or put out Tick-Tubes to try and cut down the risk.
Oh, and Priska has managed to pick up ticks on the small bits of grass in mall parking lots before. But she has both a Lyme vaccine and anti-tick and flea chews.