Dragon's Woo

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bob sterman
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Dragon's Woo

Post by bob sterman » Mon Jan 22, 2024 8:55 am

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-s ... e-68028447
The tiny beads are a needle-free form of auriculotherapy, designed to stimulate specific points of the ear to address physical and emotional health concerns.
https://acuseeds.co.uk/pages/about
They also create continual, gentle pressure on nerve impulses in the ear which send messages to the brain that certain organs or systems need support. The brain will then send signals and chemicals to the rest of the body to support whatever ailments you’re experiencing, releasing endorphins into the bloodstream, relaxing the nervous system, and naturally soothing pain and discomfort.
:shock: :shock: :shock:

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Re: Dragon's Woo

Post by IvanV » Tue Jan 23, 2024 9:54 am

There's lots of money in woo. Cleverly marketed, appealing woo.

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lpm
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Re: Dragon's Woo

Post by lpm » Tue Jan 23, 2024 10:40 am

The whole episode was crap.

They had a mentally ill drug addict who rang gongs at chocolate to give it special energy - they invested.

An amateur builder of sheds making great profits from the sex work and adultery market, but who they said should give that up and become a modular homes tycoon instead - they invested.

They had a peddler of sporting memorabilia who was killing it and making great profit margins - but didn't invest.
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Re: Dragon's Woo

Post by bjn » Tue Jan 23, 2024 11:05 am

lpm wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2024 10:40 am
An amateur builder of sheds making great profits from the sex work and adultery market, but who they said should give that up and become a modular homes tycoon instead - they invested.
I'm intrugued as to the how the business model of sheds -> sex work/adultery -> profit thing works, but not intrigued enough to watch the episode.

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Re: Dragon's Woo

Post by JQH » Tue Jan 23, 2024 11:06 am

I presume he puts beds in them and rents them out by the hour.
And remember that if you botch the exit, the carnival of reaction may be coming to a town near you.

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lpm
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Re: Dragon's Woo

Post by lpm » Tue Jan 23, 2024 11:36 am

Yes, sheds with beds, in a caravan park in Wales I think.

3 hours for £55. Beats a motel.

Or all night for something else, can't remember.

The genius move was they were masquerading as "cinema pods". They had a TV screen in and were supposedly for couples to hang out and watch a movie from Amazon Prime or Netflix.

In a hilarious touch they gave a little box of popcorn to these "movie watchers".
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bob sterman
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Re: Dragon's Woo

Post by bob sterman » Tue Jan 23, 2024 4:03 pm

The ME Association are not happy...

https://meassociation.org.uk/2024/01/di ... -damaging/
Editorially, the BBC has made a grave decision in allowing a product to seem that, coupled with various wellness practises, it could somehow cure an illness, without scientific backing.
And (sorry for the source) but someone has made a complaint to the ASA....

Dragons' Den entrepreneur who was the first to get 6 offers for device that 'cured' her ME is reported to advertising standards for 'selling snake oil' as doctors slam BBC show for 'misleading desperate patients'

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/arti ... ients.html

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Re: Dragon's Woo

Post by IvanV » Wed Jan 24, 2024 12:03 pm

bob sterman wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2024 4:03 pm
The ME Association are not happy...

https://meassociation.org.uk/2024/01/di ... -damaging/
Editorially, the BBC has made a grave decision in allowing a product to seem that, coupled with various wellness practises, it could somehow cure an illness, without scientific backing.
And (sorry for the source) but someone has made a complaint to the ASA....

Dragons' Den entrepreneur who was the first to get 6 offers for device that 'cured' her ME is reported to advertising standards for 'selling snake oil' as doctors slam BBC show for 'misleading desperate patients'

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/arti ... ients.html
The illegality of making unevidenced claims of cure was the first thought that occurred to me. So I re-read the BBC news article carefully, to look for anything that might be such a claim. And I went and looked at her website, with the same aim. I came away with the impression that there were no claims of cure, in the legal sense. So she and the BBC had stayed the right side of the legal line.

I think the BBC know very well about this. I have carefully read a number of BBC news articles where there was such a risk, and decided they know just how to write such an article, to report on it, without ever indicating credence for claims that another person might have made, or indeed suggesting that such a claim might have been made, when legally it hasn't been.

There is a big market in woo and wellness bollocks. And there has been a big push in the past by ASA and local trading standards to prevent illegal claims of cure. So I think it is pretty well known that you mustn't make illegal claims of cure, and when I look at woo-sellers marketing materials from time to time they are generally careful to stay the right side of the line. So woo-sellers remain in business. Because even without claiming cure, they create feelings that they tap into.

And I think that is wrong too, because it works and does mislead some people. My own wife is attracted by "natural cures" and there's no point debating the point with her. I saw my late mother-in-law's husband spending a lot of money he didn't have on fake herbal cures, to try and cure his wife, which was very sad, because she, for all her problems, knew that was bollocks.

But it isn't illegal to do that, and it's how the woo-sellers stay in business. And I think that is what the ME society is saying. In the linked article on their website, they don't make an accusation of illegal unevidenced claim of cure. Apparently they have also made a complaint to the ASA, according to the Daily Mail, and may be that's true. I'm not sure that will be sustained, on the basis of the materials I have seen - though I'm not going to go to the lengths of actually watching an extract of Dragon's Den, as for me that is far too intolerably unwatchable.

But I can see that the ME society have a very fair and important point to make, and making an ASA complaint would be part of how they publicise that, even if in practice there isn't anything sufficiently concrete for such a complaint to be sustained.

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Re: Dragon's Woo

Post by bob sterman » Wed Jan 24, 2024 5:36 pm

Website (https://acuseeds.co.uk/) is offering online courses teaching you...

"Treatment protocols for where to place ear seeds for anxiety, weight loss, tinnitus, addiction, pain & more"

I would think the term "treatment" implies it's going to improve a condition (even if it doesn't cure it).

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Re: Dragon's Woo

Post by cvb » Thu Jan 25, 2024 4:13 pm

I watched it.

She certainly at least heavily implied these seeds cured her ME.

None of the dragons asked for any evidence that these bollocksy seed thing actually work.

Took it all at face value.

According to the Mail article, linked above, the BBC approached her not the other was around.

They really should do better.

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Re: Dragon's Woo

Post by Trinucleus » Thu Jan 25, 2024 8:42 pm

bob sterman wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2024 5:36 pm
Website (https://acuseeds.co.uk/) is offering online courses teaching you...

"Treatment protocols for where to place ear seeds for anxiety, weight loss, tinnitus, addiction, pain & more"

I would think the term "treatment" implies it's going to improve a condition (even if it doesn't cure it).
They do link to a number of studies in the FAQ that report improvements in pain (but not for ME).

Then they say

Disclaimer: This product is not used to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease. Always seek the advice of a physician or other qualified healthcare provider with any questions regarding a medical condition.

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Re: Dragon's Woo

Post by JQH » Fri Jan 26, 2024 3:59 pm

Most, if not all, woosters have that buried in the small print on their websites.
And remember that if you botch the exit, the carnival of reaction may be coming to a town near you.

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Re: Dragon's Woo

Post by dyqik » Fri Jan 26, 2024 5:39 pm

JQH wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2024 3:59 pm
Most, if not all, woosters have that buried in the small print on their websites.
And disclaimers don't change the common meaning of clear phrases:
X will cure you

disclaimer: X will not cure you
Does in fact mean that you were claiming "X will cure you".

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Re: Dragon's Woo

Post by bob sterman » Sat Jan 27, 2024 9:27 pm

BBC have added the disclaimer to the programme...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-68119301
"Acu Seeds are not intended as a cure for any medical condition and advice should always be sought from a qualified healthcare provider about any health concerns."
Given that she offers online courses to teach people to "Become a certified Ear Seed Practitioner" I wonder if that counts as a provider? ;)

https://acuseeds.co.uk/pages/learn-1

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Re: Dragon's Woo

Post by IvanV » Mon Jan 29, 2024 12:10 pm

dyqik wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2024 5:39 pm
JQH wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2024 3:59 pm
Most, if not all, woosters have that buried in the small print on their websites.
And disclaimers don't change the common meaning of clear phrases:
X will cure you
disclaimer: X will not cure you
Does in fact mean that you were claiming "X will cure you".
Which is why they don't use clear phrases like "X will cure you". Instead they use unclear phrases like "may help you feel better", "may support you with", that don't amount to a claim of cure. This is what accuseeds actually say about them:
Ear seeds may support a broad spectrum of health concerns including anxiety, stress, headaches, digestion, immunity, focus, sleep and fatigue. Our ear seed kits include the protocol ear maps for these eight health concerns and each protocol uses between 3 to 5 ear seeds. Ear seeds have also been found to support with women's health issues like menstrual issues, libido, fertility, postpartum issues, inflammation, menopause and weight loss. The ear maps for these issues are given in our women's health ear seed kit bundles. The specific combination of seed placements will support your chosen health concern.
And furthermore, there are studies showing their "effectiveness" in "relieving" various conditions, at least according to subjects who were asked to self-report if they felt better, just like any other placebo therapy:
Auriculotherapy has undergone decades of research, with a number of peer-reviewed studies showing its effectiveness in relieving everything from stress, anxiety and pain to weight issues, migraines, hormonal/fertility issues and insomnia.
...
An April 2015 study in Complementary Therapies in Medicine enlisted 150 hypertensive patients and divided them into groups. The experimental group of participants received auricular acupressure for 10 weeks while the control group received regular care. Researchers found that those who received auricular acupressure reported a significant improvement in their mental health, body pain, and quality of life.
...
A June 2015 study in Pain Management Nursing suggests that auricular point acupressure may help reduce pain in cancer patients. In the study, 50 cancer patients received auricular acupressure treatment with vaccaria seeds for seven days for their pain. After the seven days of treatment, patients reported reduced pain intensity by more than half. As a result, patients took less pain medication.
...
[Lots more like that]
As we know ,the more expensive and elaborate the placebo therapy, the larger the effects self-reporting subjects identify.

My favoured placebo is a glass of red wine.

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