Positive is negative

[Sciolus]

By god I hate it when people use "positive" to mean "good", especially in quantitative contexts, and especially especially when low numbers are better. The most common example is "positive feedback", which any engineer will tell you is a bad thing unless you're trying to catastrophically destroy something.

Exhibit 2:

An assessment of impacts of the proposed change is required if the anticipated impact is negative (i.e. an increase in dangerous emissions). If the anticipated impact is positive, a qualitative assessment is adequate.

If the second half of your sentence is having to explain that the first half of your sentence means the opposite of what it actually means, maybe you should fix the first half of your sentence so that it isn't bollocks.

Example 3:

Yes, its striking how the graphs show the positive effect on inequality of direct taxes and benefits as the coefficient is cut from 50.3 to 32.4, and the negative effect of indirect taxes which increase the coefficient back up to 36.2 (all from 2013/4).

I think this gibberish is using "positive" to mean "good", but since I'm not sure what the numbers mean it's impossible to be sure. Maybe higher numbers are good, or maybe the author thinks higher numbers are good and I think higher numbers are bad. Who knows?

Look. There are loads of words for "good" and "bad". Good, beneficial, favourable, improving; bad, adverse, unfavourable, worsening; loads more. Don't abuse words by giving them their opposite meanings. People who do that are literally worse than Hitler.

[Gfamily]

There are loads of words for "good" and "bad".

Including 'positive' and 'negative' , as it has been for over 140 years.

positive adj and n
d. Consisting in or characterized by constructive action or attitudes; inclined to hope for the best or to ‘look on the bright side’, optimistic; good, beneficial, advantageous

which is quite likely related to the even earlier usage (from about 370 years ago, and predating the >0 useage)

positive adj and n
5. Of liberty, freedom, etc.: facilitating personal development or self-realization; characterized by the empowerment of individuals to fulfil their potential, rather than simply by the absence of constraint.

[Stephanie]

By god I hate it when people use "positive" to mean "good", especially in quantitative contexts, and especially especially when low numbers are better. The most common example is "positive feedback", which any engineer will tell you is a bad thing unless you're trying to catastrophically destroy something.

Exhibit 2:

An assessment of impacts of the proposed change is required if the anticipated impact is negative (i.e. an increase in dangerous emissions). If the anticipated impact is positive, a qualitative assessment is adequate.

If the second half of your sentence is having to explain that the first half of your sentence means the opposite of what it actually means, maybe you should fix the first half of your sentence so that it isn't bollocks.

Example 3:

Yes, its striking how the graphs show the positive effect on inequality of direct taxes and benefits as the coefficient is cut from 50.3 to 32.4, and the negative effect of indirect taxes which increase the coefficient back up to 36.2 (all from 2013/4).

I think this gibberish is using "positive" to mean "good", but since I'm not sure what the numbers mean it's impossible to be sure. Maybe higher numbers are good, or maybe the author thinks higher numbers are good and I think higher numbers are bad. Who knows?

Look. There are loads of words for "good" and "bad". Good, beneficial, favourable, improving; bad, adverse, unfavourable, worsening; loads more. Don't abuse words by giving them their opposite meanings. People who do that are literally worse than Hitler.

Hmm. I actually think it's a bit off to use someone on the forum as an example. Unless you're actually trolling.

[Woodchopper]

Gfamily, well indeed. There are many different meanings for the word 'positive', ranging from law through philosophy to photography. It seems a bit pointless to assert that one meaning is correct. Especially if the meaning being objected to has been around long before all of us was born.

I'll just add that there are hundreds of hits in academic papers on economics for the exact phrase "positive effect on inequality" so it does seem to be common usage within the field being discussed.

[Woodchopper]

Hmm. I actually think it's a bit off to use someone on the forum as an example. Unless you're actually trolling.

I don't mind but other people might have.

[Stephanie]

Hmm. I actually think it's a bit off to use someone on the forum as an example. Unless you're actually trolling.

I don't mind but other people might have.

I suspected this to be the case, since you're fairly unflappable, but still, it's a bit mean

[discovolante]

Even if it's just a convenient example, describing it as 'gibberish' is unnecessary.

Even if it is an incorrect use of the word 'positive' (which it doesn't appear to be), describing it as gibberish is still unnecessary. Can we try and just discuss things and allow for mistakes without being insulting. Nobody gains from that.

[Bewildered]

While I agree with the responses so far, as I also didn’t really get the point beyond the fact that the dual meanings of positive and negative can cause confusion sometimes* , I think you are all missing the big picture. The OP violates all reasonable counting conventions by starting with exhibit 2. This is then followed by *example* 3. Maybe they meant to start with example 2 and thought feedback loop was an implicit example 1? That would be less of a crime, but still a very negative thing .

*and to be fair,though it’s a bit mean to use it, woodchoppers post is an example where it would be easier to parse if good and bad had been used instead.

[Stephanie]

This was why I questioned whether it was trolling.

[Gfamily]

While I agree with the responses so far, as I also didn’t really get the point beyond the fact that the dual meanings of positive and negative can cause confusion sometimes* , I think you are all missing the big picture. The OP violates all reasonable counting conventions by starting with exhibit 2. This is then followed by *example* 3. Maybe they meant to start with example 2 and thought feedback loop was an implicit example 1? That would be less of a crime, but still a very negative thing .

*and to be fair,though it’s a bit mean to use it, woodchoppers post is an example where it would be easier to parse if good and bad had been used instead.

Ah, but the OP did start with "the most common example", so clearly that's the "Primum Exemplum"

[Bewildered]

This was why I questioned whether it was trolling.

Yeah i agree, it does make it look a bit like that.

Edit: Therefore I remain positively disposed towards that possibility.

[dyqik]

Is positivism good or bad?

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Is positivism good or bad?

I'm positive that some people are just negative.

[Martin_B]

I'm positive that it's a negative

(Damn! Ninja'd!)

[Sciolus]

I apologise to Woodchopper if he feels picked on for something that many people do -- I meant no offence and was not trolling. It was simply that the two quoted examples came before me at about the same time and triggered the rant. I stand by "gibberish" though -- I genuinely didn't understand what he was trying to say.

[Stephanie]

I think maybe, if you don't understand what someone has said in a post, ask them on thread what they mean?

[Bird on a Fire]

By god I hate it when people use "positive" to mean "good", especially in quantitative contexts, and especially especially when low numbers are better. The most common example is "positive feedback", which any engineer will tell you is a bad thing unless you're trying to catastrophically destroy something.

Well, not necessarily. Compound interest is an example of positive feedback. In an engineering context, desirable processes like galvanisation involve positive feedbacks just as much as undesirable ones like rusting do.

I think it's ok for a phrase like "positive feedback" to have different meanings in different domains. One is unlikely to be unsure as to whether the conversation is about survey results or systems processes.

If it helps, just think of positive feedback (in the survey sense) as something that promotes the original behaviour, thus making it a positive feedback (in the systems sense).

[Martin Y]

I can see that logically there is a possible ambiguity in talking about a positive effect on an undesirable situation (i.e. might you be describing a positive increase in the harmful effect itself rather than a positive improvement in the situation?) but I hadn't imagined it might actually cause real uncertainty as to the intended meaning.

[dyqik]

I can see that logically there is a possible ambiguity in talking about a positive effect on an undesirable situation (i.e. might you be describing a positive increase in the harmful effect itself rather than a positive improvement in the situation?) but I hadn't imagined it might actually cause real uncertainty as to the intended meaning.

Certainly nothing they couldn't be cleared up with a simple good faith question.

[dyqik]

By god I hate it when people use "positive" to mean "good", especially in quantitative contexts, and especially especially when low numbers are better. The most common example is "positive feedback", which any engineer will tell you is a bad thing unless you're trying to catastrophically destroy something.

Well, not necessarily. Compound interest is an example of positive feedback. In an engineering context, desirable processes like galvanisation involve positive feedbacks just as much as undesirable ones like rusting do.

Positive feedback is absolutely essential to modern technology, and is a very useful thing. The idea that it's generally destructive is just plain false.

You can't have reliable radio communication without it, for example.

Positive feedback is something that designed into every oscillator, and is essential to modern precision measurement standards. It's also essential to all digital electronics.

Google tells me that positive feedback is essential to blood clotting and childbirth as well.

[Woodchopper]

I can see that logically there is a possible ambiguity in talking about a positive effect on an undesirable situation (i.e. might you be describing a positive increase in the harmful effect itself rather than a positive improvement in the situation?) but I hadn't imagined it might actually cause real uncertainty as to the intended meaning.

It appears that the people who suggested alternative words did actually understand the intended meaning.

[bmforre]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_positivism

Logical positivism, later called logical empiricism, and both of which together are also known as neopositivism, was a movement in Western philosophy whose central thesis was the verification principle (also known as the verifiability criterion of meaning). Also called verificationism, this would-be theory of knowledge asserted that only statements verifiable through direct observation or logical proof are meaningful. Starting in the late 1920s, groups of philosophers, scientists, and mathematicians formed the Berlin Circle and the Vienna Circle, which, in these two cities, would propound the ideas of logical positivism.

[Allo V Psycho]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_positivism

Logical positivism, later called logical empiricism, and both of which together are also known as neopositivism, was a movement in Western philosophy whose central thesis was the verification principle (also known as the verifiability criterion of meaning). Also called verificationism, this would-be theory of knowledge asserted that only statements verifiable through direct observation or logical proof are meaningful. Starting in the late 1920s, groups of philosophers, scientists, and mathematicians formed the Berlin Circle and the Vienna Circle, which, in these two cities, would propound the ideas of logical positivism.

Moving partly from quantitative to qualitative research, I was a little startled to discover that some of my new colleagues regard 'positivist' as an insult.