Why has the UK paid its debt to Iran?
Why has the UK paid its debt to Iran?
Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe and Anoosheh Ashoori are finally on their way back to the UK after being held hostage by Iran over the almost £400 million in debt we've owed them for tanks they paid for in 1979 that we never provided.
The government has long claimed it can't pay the money because of sanctions on Iran but claims to have somehow found a way to pay the money without getting into legal problems.
My question is, what's changed? Why has the government finally decided to pay up? It clearly didn't care about Nazanin or Anoosheh. Johnson hasn't suddenly got a conscious about his role in Nazanin's imprisonment. So why pay the money?
Anyone have any ideas?
The government has long claimed it can't pay the money because of sanctions on Iran but claims to have somehow found a way to pay the money without getting into legal problems.
My question is, what's changed? Why has the government finally decided to pay up? It clearly didn't care about Nazanin or Anoosheh. Johnson hasn't suddenly got a conscious about his role in Nazanin's imprisonment. So why pay the money?
Anyone have any ideas?
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Re: Why has the UK paid its debt to Iran?
Reuters version of the story hints that it's part of trying to get the US-Iran nuclear deal reinstated.
https://www.reuters.com/world/two-detai ... 022-03-16/
BBC version says the British repayment is "ring-fenced solely for humanitarian purposes" which might be a legal figleaf.
https://www.reuters.com/world/two-detai ... 022-03-16/
BBC version says the British repayment is "ring-fenced solely for humanitarian purposes" which might be a legal figleaf.
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Re: Why has the UK paid its debt to Iran?
Impressed that Boris Johnson released a statement earlier today that wasn’t so incompetently written that Nazinin was immediately rearrested and locked up for life. I suppose it’s the best we can hope for.
I’ve decided I should be on the pardon list if that’s still in the works
Re: Why has the UK paid its debt to Iran?
That's what I had assumed was going on.Martin Y wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 4:33 pmReuters version of the story hints that it's part of trying to get the US-Iran nuclear deal reinstated.
https://www.reuters.com/world/two-detai ... 022-03-16/
Re: Why has the UK paid its debt to Iran?
That was exactly my thought too.Stranger Mouse wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 5:14 pmImpressed that Boris Johnson released a statement earlier today that wasn’t so incompetently written that Nazinin was immediately rearrested and locked up for life. I suppose it’s the best we can hope for.
And remember that if you botch the exit, the carnival of reaction may be coming to a town near you.
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Re: Why has the UK paid its debt to Iran?
Global Britain needs new sources of fossil fuels.
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Re: Why has the UK paid its debt to Iran?
Getting them from Iran has the exact same issue as getting them from Saudi - they are responsible for horrors in Yemen. That's before we get to their nuclear ambitions, abysmal human rights record, sponsorship of very unpleasant proxies in other countries, etc.
FFS we should have learned our lesson about normalising relations with dictatorial regimes with imperial ambitions by now.
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Re: Why has the UK paid its debt to Iran?
Yeah, for sure, but the UK doesn't care about horrors happening to Muslims - they'll even sell you the weapons to do it (when they're not doing it themselves).EACLucifer wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 5:46 pmGetting them from Iran has the exact same issue as getting them from Saudi - they are responsible for horrors in Yemen. That's before we get to their nuclear ambitions, abysmal human rights record, sponsorship of very unpleasant proxies in other countries, etc.
FFS we should have learned our lesson about normalising relations with dictatorial regimes with imperial ambitions by now.
I'd love the UK (et al.) to grow a geopolitical conscience but it's not going to happen with the Johnson-Truss combo currently running the show. They will continue to make myopic decisions with horrible a..holes to maximise short-term profits and political expediency.
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Re: Why has the UK paid its debt to Iran?
I think that’s right. As far as I know the British position was that the money was owed to the Iranian ministry of defence. However it couldn’t be paid as the ministry was under sanctions. Transferring the money for humanitarian purposes would be a way to avoid paying the ministry.Martin Y wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 4:33 pmReuters version of the story hints that it's part of trying to get the US-Iran nuclear deal reinstated.
https://www.reuters.com/world/two-detai ... 022-03-16/
BBC version says the British repayment is "ring-fenced solely for humanitarian purposes" which might be a legal figleaf.
But as you write, that would just be a legal fig leaf. This is all about the politics. IMHO what’s changed is Russia. The UK, US and EU don’t want another crisis with Iran while they are trying to deal with Russia. They’ll hope that the 400 million will buy a quiet period in relations with Iran.
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Re: Why has the UK paid its debt to Iran?
TBH I've never quite got why Iran is such a bogeyman in the region. Is it really any more morally repugnant than Saudi Arabia, for instance? (Actually, their stance on Israel is extremely bad come to think of it.)
I know they were less keen on selling oil to the West on the West's terms (see also Venezuela, which does at least kind of stand out in Latin America), and of course there was some Cold War stuff because of the Marxism. But is it mostly historical contingency that means Saudis get BMWs and Iranians get drone strikes?
I know they were less keen on selling oil to the West on the West's terms (see also Venezuela, which does at least kind of stand out in Latin America), and of course there was some Cold War stuff because of the Marxism. But is it mostly historical contingency that means Saudis get BMWs and Iranians get drone strikes?
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Re: Why has the UK paid its debt to Iran?
I don't think the US has really got over the hostage crisis in the Carter administration, or the Second Oil Crisis, which is one factor.Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 10:31 pmTBH I've never quite got why Iran is such a bogeyman in the region. Is it really any more morally repugnant than Saudi Arabia, for instance? (Actually, their stance on Israel is extremely bad come to think of it.)
I know they were less keen on selling oil to the West on the West's terms (see also Venezuela, which does at least kind of stand out in Latin America), and of course there was some Cold War stuff because of the Marxism. But is it mostly historical contingency that means Saudis get BMWs and Iranians get drone strikes?
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Re: Why has the UK paid its debt to Iran?
Major sponsor of militias in Syria, major backer of the Houthis, effectively trying to make Lebanon and Iraq into its puppets, blew up a Jewish centre in Argentina, literally launched about a dozen ballistic missiles at Iraq in the last couple of days...as well as a bunch of horrible stuff they share with Saudi re misogyny, homophobia and fundamentalism.Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 10:31 pmTBH I've never quite got why Iran is such a bogeyman in the region. Is it really any more morally repugnant than Saudi Arabia, for instance? (Actually, their stance on Israel is extremely bad come to think of it.)
I know they were less keen on selling oil to the West on the West's terms (see also Venezuela, which does at least kind of stand out in Latin America), and of course there was some Cold War stuff because of the Marxism. But is it mostly historical contingency that means Saudis get BMWs and Iranians get drone strikes?
Oh and Iran isn't Marxist - the theocratic regime that hijacked the revolution killed off as many Marxists as it could in the 80s.
Re: Why has the UK paid its debt to Iran?
Saudi and Iran are cold war enemies. Both are foul regimes. Saudi has more oil. We need oil. We side with Saudi.
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Re: Why has the UK paid its debt to Iran?
Internally Iran is a far better state than Saudi, although still very bad by western standards. Mainly it's just geopolitics. We (the wider we) have chosen to side with Saudi in the cold war LPM mentions. Iran's stance towards Israel is indefensible, although it's more bark than bite.Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 10:31 pmTBH I've never quite got why Iran is such a bogeyman in the region. Is it really any more morally repugnant than Saudi Arabia, for instance? (Actually, their stance on Israel is extremely bad come to think of it.)
I know they were less keen on selling oil to the West on the West's terms (see also Venezuela, which does at least kind of stand out in Latin America), and of course there was some Cold War stuff because of the Marxism. But is it mostly historical contingency that means Saudis get BMWs and Iranians get drone strikes?
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Re: Why has the UK paid its debt to Iran?
I mean they share all the horrible stuff at the beginning with Saudi Arabia too - major sponsor of militias in Syria, major backer of the non-Houthis, effectively trying to make the UAE and Bahrain its puppets, blew up the World Trade Centre…EACLucifer wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 10:40 pmMajor sponsor of militias in Syria, major backer of the Houthis, effectively trying to make Lebanon and Iraq into its puppets, blew up a Jewish centre in Argentina, literally launched about a dozen ballistic missiles at Iraq in the last couple of days...as well as a bunch of horrible stuff they share with Saudi re misogyny, homophobia and fundamentalism.Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 10:31 pmTBH I've never quite got why Iran is such a bogeyman in the region. Is it really any more morally repugnant than Saudi Arabia, for instance? (Actually, their stance on Israel is extremely bad come to think of it.)
I know they were less keen on selling oil to the West on the West's terms (see also Venezuela, which does at least kind of stand out in Latin America), and of course there was some Cold War stuff because of the Marxism. But is it mostly historical contingency that means Saudis get BMWs and Iranians get drone strikes?
For sure, it's not now - but a leftist-Islamist Revolution put it pretty clearly on one side in the Cold War, and (much like Cuba) sometimes old habits die hard when it comes to sanctions etc.EACLucifer wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 10:40 pmOh and Iran isn't Marxist - the theocratic regime that hijacked the revolution killed off as many Marxists as it could in the 80s.
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Re: Why has the UK paid its debt to Iran?
I'm begging to understand. I will support whichever bloodthirsty theocracy produces most sunflower oil. The crisp supply must be defended at all costs.
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Re: Why has the UK paid its debt to Iran?
People, Britain isn't making deals with either Saudi or Iran or any other government to get their oil.
Oli is bought and sold on the world market. The Saudis and Iranians are selling to dealers who then sell it on to others.
The Saudis are important due to their wealth and leadership in the MENA region.
Oli is bought and sold on the world market. The Saudis and Iranians are selling to dealers who then sell it on to others.
The Saudis are important due to their wealth and leadership in the MENA region.
Re: Why has the UK paid its debt to Iran?
Thanks Chops, yes. Similar to the idea that if we build loads of wind turbines at home we'll be self-sufficient and less reliant on global energy markets. Good luck convincing the multinationals who build the turbines that they can't sell the power to the highest bidder. Look at the deals for guaranteed prices for Hinkley for example.Woodchopper wrote: ↑Thu Mar 17, 2022 12:49 pmPeople, Britain isn't making deals with either Saudi or Iran or any other government to get their oil.
Oli is bought and sold on the world market. The Saudis and Iranians are selling to dealers who then sell it on to others.
The Saudis are important due to their wealth and leadership in the MENA region.
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Re: Why has the UK paid its debt to Iran?
State-owned petrobusinesses control the rate of production, and thus prices. The Saudis are big hitters in OPEC.
Increasing oil production is touted as a major negotiating point for Iran in the nuclear negotiations:
Increasing oil production is touted as a major negotiating point for Iran in the nuclear negotiations:
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/3/1 ... -lawmakersShokouhi said a return of Iranian oil to global markets could happen within months and could certainly have a noticeable effect on global supply and prices, as the country has both reserves at the ready and infrastructure in place to pump out more.
Iran used to produce about four million barrels of crude per day following the nuclear deal’s implementation in 2016, about half of which it exported, but is now producing just more than 2.5 million barrels, indicating a potential for increasing capacity, the analyst said.
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Re: Why has the UK paid its debt to Iran?
Yes, for renewables to truly be "freedom energy" generation needs to be combined with some form of protectionism.plodder wrote: ↑Thu Mar 17, 2022 1:36 pmThanks Chops, yes. Similar to the idea that if we build loads of wind turbines at home we'll be self-sufficient and less reliant on global energy markets. Good luck convincing the multinationals who build the turbines that they can't sell the power to the highest bidder. Look at the deals for guaranteed prices for Hinkley for example.Woodchopper wrote: ↑Thu Mar 17, 2022 12:49 pmPeople, Britain isn't making deals with either Saudi or Iran or any other government to get their oil.
Oli is bought and sold on the world market. The Saudis and Iranians are selling to dealers who then sell it on to others.
The Saudis are important due to their wealth and leadership in the MENA region.
We have the right to a clean, healthy, sustainable environment.
Re: Why has the UK paid its debt to Iran?
That's factually incorrect.Woodchopper wrote: ↑Thu Mar 17, 2022 12:49 pmPeople, Britain isn't making deals with either Saudi or Iran or any other government to get their oil.
Oli is bought and sold on the world market. The Saudis and Iranians are selling to dealers who then sell it on to others.
The Saudis are important due to their wealth and leadership in the MENA region.
It's a rigged market with government deals controlling who buys and sells. Saudi is an American puppet state propped up with western arms.
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Re: Why has the UK paid its debt to Iran?
or I guess it needs to be dispersed so widely that there's a genuine global market that a couple of big players can't hijack. Might be more likely tbh, there's wind, sun and water everywhere.Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑Thu Mar 17, 2022 1:44 pmYes, for renewables to truly be "freedom energy" generation needs to be combined with some form of protectionism.plodder wrote: ↑Thu Mar 17, 2022 1:36 pmThanks Chops, yes. Similar to the idea that if we build loads of wind turbines at home we'll be self-sufficient and less reliant on global energy markets. Good luck convincing the multinationals who build the turbines that they can't sell the power to the highest bidder. Look at the deals for guaranteed prices for Hinkley for example.Woodchopper wrote: ↑Thu Mar 17, 2022 12:49 pmPeople, Britain isn't making deals with either Saudi or Iran or any other government to get their oil.
Oli is bought and sold on the world market. The Saudis and Iranians are selling to dealers who then sell it on to others.
The Saudis are important due to their wealth and leadership in the MENA region.
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Re: Why has the UK paid its debt to Iran?
Interconnectors would be the pinch point, I suspect, rather than production per se. Eg if the UK depends on a big solar pipe from Morocco for a lot of its energy it wouldn't be able to suddenly switch to getting boatloads of sunshine from Australia.plodder wrote: ↑Thu Mar 17, 2022 1:53 pmor I guess it needs to be dispersed so widely that there's a genuine global market that a couple of big players can't hijack. Might be more likely tbh, there's wind, sun and water everywhere.Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑Thu Mar 17, 2022 1:44 pmYes, for renewables to truly be "freedom energy" generation needs to be combined with some form of protectionism.plodder wrote: ↑Thu Mar 17, 2022 1:36 pm
Thanks Chops, yes. Similar to the idea that if we build loads of wind turbines at home we'll be self-sufficient and less reliant on global energy markets. Good luck convincing the multinationals who build the turbines that they can't sell the power to the highest bidder. Look at the deals for guaranteed prices for Hinkley for example.
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Re: Why has the UK paid its debt to Iran?
Yes, this is the point I would make. Electricity can’t be put in a huge ship and sailed round the world to the highest bidder. We can control where the interconnectors go and how big they are.Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑Thu Mar 17, 2022 2:02 pmInterconnectors would be the pinch point, I suspect, rather than production per se. Eg if the UK depends on a big solar pipe from Morocco for a lot of its energy it wouldn't be able to suddenly switch to getting boatloads of sunshine from Australia.plodder wrote: ↑Thu Mar 17, 2022 1:53 pmor I guess it needs to be dispersed so widely that there's a genuine global market that a couple of big players can't hijack. Might be more likely tbh, there's wind, sun and water everywhere.Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑Thu Mar 17, 2022 1:44 pm
Yes, for renewables to truly be "freedom energy" generation needs to be combined with some form of protectionism.
Shipping old rocks around is much better understand than modern network-based capitalism.
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Re: Why has the UK paid its debt to Iran?
It sort of could - hydrogen tankers, cryogenic compressed air tankers, or catalytic conversion of CO2 to methane/LNG. But not as efficiently as just shipping it over cables to where it's needed.