The Invasion of Ukraine

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bjn
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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by bjn » Sat Mar 26, 2022 7:44 am

lpm wrote:
Fri Mar 25, 2022 10:20 pm
NATO does not have infinite armaments.

We will run out of anti tank, Stingers etc, same as Russia will. No idea when.
The Unites State’s defence budget is approximately 3/4 of the entire pre war Russian GDP. They have huge stockpiles of well maintained ordinance and weapons systems. Add in Europe, where NLAWs and AT-4s are rolling off production lines. Meanwhile the Russians have had to stop tank production because of sanctions. When the Russians run low on the latest and greatest kit (which they are losing at a higher ratio than they posses in their inventory), they’ll have to drag out more old, rusting, poorly maintained equipment, which will have a much harder time than the new shiny stuff that also got destroyed. The Russians are going to run out first.

Before that they will probably run out of soldiers vaguely capable of carrying out the fight.

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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by Woodchopper » Sat Mar 26, 2022 8:35 am

Ukraine has complained recently about a lack of supplies and there are problems giving it what it needs:

Now, pressure is growing to ramp up the pace further, as Ukraine says it is running out of weapons and ammunition as it fights to blunt Russian advances and counterattack. Antitank and antiaircraft missiles are in especially short supply, Ukrainian defense officials say. During this week’s NATO summit and meeting of the European Union, President Biden is expected to press allies to give Ukraine more, particularly air defense systems, U.S. officials said.

Ukraine’s ambassador to Britain, Vadym Prystaiko, on Wednesday said stocks of some key weapons could soon run out and that Ukrainian forces urgently needed long-range weaponry. “We didn’t have enough in the first place. Running out of weaponry will be seen in the week to come,” Mr. Prystaiko said in a television interview. “Tomorrow, President Zelensky will talk to NATO to see how we can replenish our stocks,” he said.

Western security officials say their strategy initially envisaged equipping a nascent Ukrainian insurgency—recalling the transfer of weapons to mujahedeen fighters who defeated the Soviet Union in Afghanistan—that would employ guerrilla tactics against Russian occupiers.

Instead, because Ukraine’s military has managed to keep Moscow’s forces at bay in much of the country, the task has become equipping a regular army engaged in a large-scale conventional war.

“The Ukrainians are expending a lot of ordnance, and this is more than we anticipated,” said a Western security official. “We are trying to step up the flow of weapons to meet that new requirement and there are constant shortages.”

Ukraine says keeping the flow moving is central to its war effort. NATO allies have debated which systems would provoke an escalation from Russia, ruling out fighter jets, for example.

While U.S. and European officials said they are moving as quickly as possible, some also fear that some of the weapons systems could end up in Russian hands or circulate for years on the black market. Some European nations are reluctant to provide more arms they fear could fuel a war on the continent. And U.S. officials, in the run-up to the Feb. 24 invasion, said they didn’t plan to support Ukraine with arms for a protracted period.

[…]

Before the invasion, weapons manufacturers weren’t geared up to make antitank and antiaircraft arms at a wartime pace. While the U.S. had 13,000 Stingers in its stockpile before the invasion, there were no plans to produce more en masse, U.S. officials said. Militaries in Europe that have given their Stingers and antitank missiles to Ukraine now want to refill depleted stocks, creating competition for new units rolling off the assembly line.

“Ready-made stocks are not inexhaustible,” said a defense contractor in Poland. “It isn’t the arsenal of democracy where refrigerator plants are also making airplanes. No. There is a very limited number of production facilities. You can maybe speed up some stuff, but it’s not like you can suddenly open up two or three new production lines.”

Now, as the warfare appears to emulate World War II, defense contractors are racing to ramp up the supplies of antiaircraft and antitank weaponry and ammunition. Central European defense ministers say they have set up a hotline into Ukraine, so that President Volodymyr Zelensky’s military chiefs can order former Soviet equipment from their stocks.

The Czech Republic has given Kyiv’s Defense Ministry a list of $500 million of gear in Czech warehouses, and says the U.S. has signaled its willingness to buy much of it, for onward donation to Ukraine. The items on the list range from ordinary machine gun ammunition to antiaircraft missiles capable of intercepting war planes at high altitudes, all of it ready to be delivered within four days of an order.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/weapons-fo ... 1648066417

It’s been relatively easy to donate arms from existing stocks. But new production takes time and is a much more expensive gift.

Defence ministries in donor countries need to plan on their arms being used by their own forces in a war against Russia or another enemy. They aren’t going to give away arms that they anticipate needing in the future. The US is only going to donate a fraction of its stocks.

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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by EACLucifer » Sat Mar 26, 2022 9:01 am

One thing that can be donated, though, is surplus and mothballed equipment. The US had so many more MRAPs than it needed it was flogging them off to police forces who had no legit use for them - Ukraine has far more need of them than US cops, who should be encouraged to donate their vehicles, but more significantly there are remaining examples that just need repainting into something less conspicuous than desert tan. America also made oodles of humvees, which it is replacing with newer vehicles. Even civilian 4x4s would be helpful - I gather Ukraine does not have enough 4x4s.

I've mentioned before that the UK is to mothball more than a regiment's worth of Challenger 2s, and the US has mothballed Abrams tanks. The US recently retired it's Predator drones, and tends to mothball rather than scrap retired aircraft.

There's also civilian production. Ukraine doesn't just need arms but boots, camouflage clothing, etc. These can be sourced from civilian suppliers, but in addition, America has a large civilian arms industry - and due to protectionist laws, arms are actually made in America. Civilian AR15s and optics could also help equip Ukraine's growing TDF, and commercial producers of ammo can be contracted to provide that, too - Remington's already donated a million rounds or so, but much more is needed.

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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by Woodchopper » Sat Mar 26, 2022 10:41 am

EACLucifer wrote:
Sat Mar 26, 2022 9:01 am
One thing that can be donated, though, is surplus and mothballed equipment. The US had so many more MRAPs than it needed it was flogging them off to police forces who had no legit use for them - Ukraine has far more need of them than US cops, who should be encouraged to donate their vehicles, but more significantly there are remaining examples that just need repainting into something less conspicuous than desert tan. America also made oodles of humvees, which it is replacing with newer vehicles. Even civilian 4x4s would be helpful - I gather Ukraine does not have enough 4x4s.
They may well be useful, though I've heard bad reports about the state of US surplus equipment.
EACLucifer wrote:
Sat Mar 26, 2022 9:01 am
I've mentioned before that the UK is to mothball more than a regiment's worth of Challenger 2s, and the US has mothballed Abrams tanks. The US recently retired it's Predator drones, and tends to mothball rather than scrap retired aircraft.
The Russian army has already supplied hundreds of tanks to Ukraine ....

I expect that the Ukrainians would be glad of more, though ex-Soviet models from Central Europe would make training and maintenance easier. I wouldn't be surprised if the UK decides that it needs its tanks after all.
EACLucifer wrote:
Sat Mar 26, 2022 9:01 am
There's also civilian production. Ukraine doesn't just need arms but boots, camouflage clothing, etc. These can be sourced from civilian suppliers, but in addition, America has a large civilian arms industry - and due to protectionist laws, arms are actually made in America. Civilian AR15s and optics could also help equip Ukraine's growing TDF, and commercial producers of ammo can be contracted to provide that, too - Remington's already donated a million rounds or so, but much more is needed.
As far as I know, a lot is being donated already. Optics and especially night vision equipment are important and people are buying large quantities from US civilian dealers and shipping them over.

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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by bjn » Sat Mar 26, 2022 11:14 am

Every tank, MRLS, APC etc… destroyed by the Ukrainians now is one that can’t be used against NATO in the future. The existing Russian production lines are already experiencing supply problems only a few weeks into sanctions. There are no blockers to currently running western production and no blockers to starting new production. The Russians are not in any state to stage another major invasion, let alone of a NATO country. Given all that, if I was King of NATO I’d scouring my warehouses for all the appropriate things that go boom and handing it over to the Ukrainians to attrit the hell out of Russian forces now. Go all in on fighting the proxy war to degrade their ability to do anything to anyone for decades.

Meanwhile I’d be looking really hard at the lessons of this war and choosing very carefully what to throw money at (drones, drones, drones and drone counter measures), while building many more of the obvious things like ATGWs. The only things I’d want to keep in reserve are stuff the Ukrainians can’t use immediately plus enough supplies to keep the Chinese in check.

ETA: obviously it’s up to the Ukrainians as to when they want to call it quits, but while they aren’t doing that, back them to the hilt.

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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by stańczyk » Sat Mar 26, 2022 12:55 pm

bjn wrote:
Sat Mar 26, 2022 11:14 am
<snip>
Given all that, if I was King of NATO I’d scouring my warehouses for all the appropriate things that go boom and handing it over to the Ukrainians to attrit the hell out of Russian forces now. Go all in on fighting the proxy war to degrade their ability to do anything to anyone for decades.
The problem is if Putin goes nuclear. It would be better for NATO to respond with conventional forces, if it can, so it needs to retain enough for that response.

I fear that this is no longer an unlikely event.

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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by Martin Y » Sat Mar 26, 2022 1:32 pm

When it comes to ramping up production lines for high tech weapons don't forget that electronic component supply chains haven't recovered from Covid yet. I've had stuff on back order for months.

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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by EACLucifer » Sat Mar 26, 2022 2:00 pm

Woodchopper wrote:
Sat Mar 26, 2022 10:41 am
EACLucifer wrote:
Sat Mar 26, 2022 9:01 am
One thing that can be donated, though, is surplus and mothballed equipment. The US had so many more MRAPs than it needed it was flogging them off to police forces who had no legit use for them - Ukraine has far more need of them than US cops, who should be encouraged to donate their vehicles, but more significantly there are remaining examples that just need repainting into something less conspicuous than desert tan. America also made oodles of humvees, which it is replacing with newer vehicles. Even civilian 4x4s would be helpful - I gather Ukraine does not have enough 4x4s.
They may well be useful, though I've heard bad reports about the state of US surplus equipment.
Now is the time to be pulling it out of the depots, inspecting it and reconditioning it. It can always be put back again.
EACLucifer wrote:
Sat Mar 26, 2022 9:01 am
I've mentioned before that the UK is to mothball more than a regiment's worth of Challenger 2s, and the US has mothballed Abrams tanks. The US recently retired it's Predator drones, and tends to mothball rather than scrap retired aircraft.
The Russian army has already supplied hundreds of tanks to Ukraine ....

I expect that the Ukrainians would be glad of more, though ex-Soviet models from Central Europe would make training and maintenance easier. I wouldn't be surprised if the UK decides that it needs its tanks after all.
Training is simpler, but then you are left with an ex-Soviet tank, which means visibility is poorer, armour is reliant on explosive-reactive armour tiles that don't work that well rather than the extremely effective Chobham/Dorchester composite armour, and the crew are left sitting on a casette/carousel of shells and propellant charges because the auto-loader needs them laid out that way, meaning any hull penetration becomes a catastrophic kill with all the crew lost, whereas western tanks typically keep the ammunition in the turret bustle, in a compartment separated from the crew by armoured doors, with a blowout panel designed to vent pressure outwards.

That said, ex-Soviet models may well be more practical in this context.

I'm generally of the view that the UK should upgrade all the Challenger 2s into Challenger 3s rather than mothballing some of them, yes. They really ought to look into adding an active protection system, too.

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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by bjn » Sat Mar 26, 2022 2:31 pm

stańczyk wrote:
Sat Mar 26, 2022 12:55 pm
bjn wrote:
Sat Mar 26, 2022 11:14 am
<snip>
Given all that, if I was King of NATO I’d scouring my warehouses for all the appropriate things that go boom and handing it over to the Ukrainians to attrit the hell out of Russian forces now. Go all in on fighting the proxy war to degrade their ability to do anything to anyone for decades.
The problem is if Putin goes nuclear. It would be better for NATO to respond with conventional forces, if it can, so it needs to retain enough for that response.

I fear that this is no longer an unlikely event.
Going nuclear changes one helluva lot and I have have doubts that will happen. We are but internet randoms so what do we know. Even if it did and we responded with conventional forces, we’d still have a large number of F-35s, Typhoons, F-22s, Reapers, Tomahawks, Switchbades, etc… supporting NATO armoured columns that would make short work of whatever Russian ground forces they engage. The Russians have thrown most of what they have available into the Ukraine, there is little left to attack or counter NATO. Their remaining ground forces are mostly internal repression thugs.

FWIW I’ve just seen a report on (admittedly Ukrainian sourced) that a Russian commander shot himself rather than face court martial. He was in charge of tanks kept in reserve and…
went to pull tanks out of storage to put on the battlefield but the electronics have been stolen to sell the precious metals and the rest have engines removed etc. 10% appears to only be functioning and they have no idea how long it will take to be functional

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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by EACLucifer » Sat Mar 26, 2022 3:08 pm

bjn wrote:
Sat Mar 26, 2022 2:31 pm
Going nuclear changes one helluva lot and I have have doubts that will happen. We are but internet randoms so what do we know. Even if it did and we responded with conventional forces, we’d still have a large number of F-35s, Typhoons, F-22s, Reapers, Tomahawks, Switchbades, etc… supporting NATO armoured columns that would make short work of whatever Russian ground forces they engage. The Russians have thrown most of what they have available into the Ukraine, there is little left to attack or counter NATO. Their remaining ground forces are mostly internal repression thugs.

FWIW I’ve just seen a report on (admittedly Ukrainian sourced) that a Russian commander shot himself rather than face court martial. He was in charge of tanks kept in reserve and…
went to pull tanks out of storage to put on the battlefield but the electronics have been stolen to sell the precious metals and the rest have engines removed etc. 10% appears to only be functioning and they have no idea how long it will take to be functional
One of the problems with the Russian military is the refusal of Russian political leaders to accept they can't be a massive superpower any more, which means they try to retain far more equipment than they can crew or maintain. Setting aside the desire to have thousands of tanks would allow them to maintain a smaller, more effective fleet. This is particularly important as though Russian tanks to have composite armour, it isn't terribly advanced and they rely on explosive reactive armour for protection, which needs renewal, maintenance etc. The same is true across the board, eg still clinging to nominal aircraft carrier capability by holding onto the omnidisaster Admiral Kutzenov.

And when new kit has been developed, it's suffered from the usual fascist obsession with Wunderwaffe - fancy stealth jets that cost so much they've only got four of them, super-tanks with uncrewed turrets that still haven't gone into serial production, and so on. They are left without a remotely balanced army. Having loads of T72 and even T62 hulls in storage doesn't make for an effective fighting force.

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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by bjn » Sat Mar 26, 2022 4:08 pm

Yep. As the saying goes, they are Upper Volga, with nukes.

A sane leadership would first have to decide what the country wants to be and also realise that it cant be the Russian Empire, let alone the USSR. They then should have forces suitable for the self defence of such a country. They’d save a tonne of resources and have a far more capable force.

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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by bjn » Sat Mar 26, 2022 6:37 pm

Well Biden’s just ramped it up saying Putin has to go.

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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by jimbob » Sat Mar 26, 2022 6:46 pm

bjn wrote:
Sat Mar 26, 2022 4:08 pm
Yep. As the saying goes, they are Upper Volga, with nukes.

A sane leadership would first have to decide what the country wants to be and also realise that it cant be the Russian Empire, let alone the USSR. They then should have forces suitable for the self defence of such a country. They’d save a tonne of resources and have a far more capable force.
Was that deliberate? It is appropriate.
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by bjn » Sat Mar 26, 2022 6:50 pm

jimbob wrote:
Sat Mar 26, 2022 6:46 pm
bjn wrote:
Sat Mar 26, 2022 4:08 pm
Yep. As the saying goes, they are Upper Volga, with nukes.

A sane leadership would first have to decide what the country wants to be and also realise that it cant be the Russian Empire, let alone the USSR. They then should have forces suitable for the self defence of such a country. They’d save a tonne of resources and have a far more capable force.
Was that deliberate? It is appropriate.
Even if it wasn’t, I’m now claiming it was.

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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by Herainestold » Sat Mar 26, 2022 7:16 pm

Russia bombs Lviv, Biden says Putin has to go. Nuclear armageddon is one step closer.
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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by Herainestold » Sat Mar 26, 2022 7:17 pm

jimbob wrote:
Sat Mar 26, 2022 6:46 pm
bjn wrote:
Sat Mar 26, 2022 4:08 pm
Yep. As the saying goes, they are Upper Volga, with nukes.

A sane leadership would first have to decide what the country wants to be and also realise that it cant be the Russian Empire, let alone the USSR. They then should have forces suitable for the self defence of such a country. They’d save a tonne of resources and have a far more capable force.
Was that deliberate? It is appropriate.
You can't say Upper Volta as it is racist.
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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by TopBadger » Sat Mar 26, 2022 10:25 pm

Herainestold wrote:
Sat Mar 26, 2022 7:16 pm
Russia bombs Lviv, Biden says Putin has to go. Nuclear armageddon is one step closer.
Doesn't seem the smartest thing for Biden to say... I assume all western leaders are thinking it, but this seems to be something best left non-verbalized.

News suggests the Russians are hemorrhaging generals... has any army lost so many senior ranking officers so quickly?
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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by bob sterman » Sat Mar 26, 2022 11:21 pm

TopBadger wrote:
Sat Mar 26, 2022 10:25 pm
Herainestold wrote:
Sat Mar 26, 2022 7:16 pm
Russia bombs Lviv, Biden says Putin has to go. Nuclear armageddon is one step closer.
Doesn't seem the smartest thing for Biden to say... I assume all western leaders are thinking it, but this seems to be something best left non-verbalized.
Perspective from a Cold War historian...

https://twitter.com/DrRadchenko/status/ ... 6329085955
Biden's comments on Putin - that he "cannot stay in power" - are unhelpful but they are not a big deal. Why unhelpful? Well, because they are a form of slapping Putin in the face. Such rhetoric doesn't actually remove Putin from power but it represents a form of one-upmanship.

Putin will have to respond or lose face (not that he has much face as far as the West but in his world he does), and this means escalation. We are moreover in a sensitive phase, where our goal should be to encourage Putin to do something sensible like get the hell out of Ukraine.

Why not a big deal? Well, because it's not like Putin doubts that the West actually seeks a regime change in Russia. He'd think that even if Biden didn't say anything. There will be dancing in the streets of Eastern & Central Europe if Putin drops dead, and that's not a secret.

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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by Millennie Al » Sun Mar 27, 2022 4:53 am

Biden's comments might not be as unhelpful as they appear. One of Putin's fears is likely to be appearing weak, but if he can be seen to defy Biden and America, that may help him feel that he looks strong to Russians (and the world in general, which is probably less important).

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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by Allo V Psycho » Sun Mar 27, 2022 7:58 am

While I think his remarks were probably a mistake, i wondered if it ws possibly an attempt to play the 'Hitler' strategy this time. As I remember it, the Allies considered an offer of peace negotiations if Hitler himself was overthrown, but decided instead to go for a strategy of unconditional German surrender. I guess the logic depends on 'how bad are the successors likely to be?' The idea of negotiating with Himmler, with the Nazis remaining in power, seems pretty unsatisfactory.

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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by Sciolus » Sun Mar 27, 2022 9:11 am

You can't just think about Putin, you have to think about his enablers and power base. What are they thinking now, what are their options? Their relationship with their money has changed forever; can they maintain their power, or do they concentrate on staying away from the Hague? Stick with Putin and go down fighting? A putsch to convey the impression that this is a clean break and a new start? A putsch simply to take advantage of Putin's current weakness to seize more power for themselves?

As we found in Iraq, it's much easier to get rid of a regime than to install a decent one. Putin has got rid of all credible alternatives that aren't complicit. (Navalny is not obviously much better AFAICS, and is probably too ill by now anyway.)

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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by bjn » Sun Mar 27, 2022 10:51 am

Allo V Psycho wrote:
Sun Mar 27, 2022 7:58 am
While I think his remarks were probably a mistake, i wondered if it ws possibly an attempt to play the 'Hitler' strategy this time. As I remember it, the Allies considered an offer of peace negotiations if Hitler himself was overthrown, but decided instead to go for a strategy of unconditional German surrender. I guess the logic depends on 'how bad are the successors likely to be?' The idea of negotiating with Himmler, with the Nazis remaining in power, seems pretty unsatisfactory.
Churchill maintains that Roosevelt's unconditional surrender terms were a surprise to him. From his memoirs...
I heard the words ‘Unconditional Surrender” for the first time from the President’s lips at the [Casablanca] Conference. It must be remembered that at that moment no one had a right to proclaim that victory was assured. Therefore, defiance was the note. I would not myself have used these words, but I immediately stood by the President and have frequently defended the decision. It is also to suggest that it prolonged the war. Negotiation with Hitler was impossible. He was a maniac with supreme power to play his hand out to the end, which he did, and did we
Grown up historians contest this and say he knew an approved it. No idea myself.

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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by Allo V Psycho » Sun Mar 27, 2022 11:47 am

I thought it might be informative to choose a UK city a bit like Kiev, and have a look at what it might look like under the same attack from the North. Birmingham seemed the best match. Current map (25th May) from https://www.understandingwar.org/backgr ... t-march-25 Ukrainian counter offensives around Market Harborough, I think, and Church Stretton and Bridgnorth, according to the original map.
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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by WFJ » Sun Mar 27, 2022 12:00 pm

Allo V Psycho wrote:
Sun Mar 27, 2022 11:47 am
I thought it might be informative to choose a UK city a bit like Kiev, and have a look at what it might look like under the same attack from the North. Birmingham seemed the best match. Current map (25th May) from https://www.understandingwar.org/backgr ... t-march-25 Ukrainian counter offensives around Market Harborough, I think, and Church Stretton and Bridgnorth, according to the original map.
Stoke and Telford aren't much of a loss. Putin can keep those.

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Re: The Invasion of Ukraine

Post by lpm » Sun Mar 27, 2022 3:01 pm

Thanks Allo V Psycho, that's a great way to get to grips with the distances.
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