The Queen

Discussions about serious topics, for serious people
User avatar
Grumble
Light of Blast
Posts: 4747
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:03 pm

Re: The Queen

Post by Grumble » Thu Sep 15, 2022 5:25 am

Annoying people in their normal routine is one thing, doing it during a funeral (effectively) is stepping over a line.
where once I used to scintillate
now I sin till ten past three

User avatar
bob sterman
Dorkwood
Posts: 1123
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 10:25 pm
Location: Location Location

Re: The Queen

Post by bob sterman » Thu Sep 15, 2022 6:00 am

Grumble wrote:
Thu Sep 15, 2022 5:25 am
Annoying people in their normal routine is one thing, doing it during a funeral (effectively) is stepping over a line.
Cancelling people's hospital appointments for this funeral crosses a far more important line - and having crossed that line they should expect protests.

It's not just any funeral. The funeral itself is part of the problem. Just as in life the Queen enjoyed extraordinary wealth - at the expense of ordinary people. Now in addition to the lavish funeral and associated arrangements being funded by the state - people are having their lives disrupted.

And if someone rolls out the "generates a lot of money from tourism" line - maybe she could lie in state indefinitely like Lenin? Could generate income for decades to come!

(As a staunch republican - I've tried to remain quiet and respectful during the past week - but many lines have been crossed as far as I'm concerned. With the passing of Brenda - it's time to ditch this obscene institution ASAP - Brian is not getting my deference).

User avatar
discovolante
Stummy Beige
Posts: 4084
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:10 pm

Re: The Queen

Post by discovolante » Thu Sep 15, 2022 6:11 am

Grumble wrote:
Thu Sep 15, 2022 5:25 am
Annoying people in their normal routine is one thing, doing it during a funeral (effectively) is stepping over a line.
Should they get a criminal record for it though?

There seem to be three main points to argue over with these protests:

1) are they effective?
2) are they morally justified?
3) should they be criminalised?

They were all slightly different so the answer might be different for each of them. For 1) I'd say there's an argument that they aren't because they are just more likely to piss off people who might otherwise be sympathetic, but on the other hand they might get more attention than at the coronation (possibly).

For 2) yes it is clearly going to be pretty upsetting for a lot of people. On the other hand a lot of people are upset at the reverence shown to the queen, the enforced mourning and the presumption that everyone should think and behave in the same way in response to her death, and I think that is understandable and should be taken a lot more seriously. See the replies and quote tweets in response to this tweet for example https://twitter.com/GeraldJonesLAB/stat ... PJPco-VZhw

For 3), I personally think we have a longstanding problem with criminalising behaviour that is basically just a bit annoying. The Act that was passed this year has made it worse but I think the threshold is already too low tbh.
To defy the laws of tradition is a crusade only of the brave.

User avatar
Grumble
Light of Blast
Posts: 4747
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:03 pm

Re: The Queen

Post by Grumble » Thu Sep 15, 2022 6:21 am

discovolante wrote:
Thu Sep 15, 2022 6:11 am
Grumble wrote:
Thu Sep 15, 2022 5:25 am
Annoying people in their normal routine is one thing, doing it during a funeral (effectively) is stepping over a line.
Should they get a criminal record for it though?

There seem to be three main points to argue over with these protests:

1) are they effective?
2) are they morally justified?
3) should they be criminalised?

They were all slightly different so the answer might be different for each of them. For 1) I'd say there's an argument that they aren't because they are just more likely to piss off people who might otherwise be sympathetic, but on the other hand they might get more attention than at the coronation (possibly).

For 2) yes it is clearly going to be pretty upsetting for a lot of people. On the other hand a lot of people are upset at the reverence shown to the queen, the enforced mourning and the presumption that everyone should think and behave in the same way in response to her death, and I think that is understandable and should be taken a lot more seriously. See the replies and quote tweets in response to this tweet for example https://twitter.com/GeraldJonesLAB/stat ... PJPco-VZhw

For 3), I personally think we have a longstanding problem with criminalising behaviour that is basically just a bit annoying. The Act that was passed this year has made it worse but I think the threshold is already too low tbh.
Well split out. I’m certainly not arguing for 3), and although I was coming from a point of view of arguing mainly about 1) the heavy handed police response and point 3) may actually swing the needle on 1) towards “effective”.
where once I used to scintillate
now I sin till ten past three

User avatar
discovolante
Stummy Beige
Posts: 4084
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:10 pm

Re: The Queen

Post by discovolante » Thu Sep 15, 2022 6:53 am

I know it's a bit of a cliché but I think if we were to look back on this in a couple of hundred years or whatever, I think we'd be astonished and probably a bit suspicious if there were no signs of unrest following the death of a wealthy monarch during a period where more and more people are at risk of freezing/going hungry/becoming homeless.
To defy the laws of tradition is a crusade only of the brave.

User avatar
TopBadger
Catbabel
Posts: 782
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 6:33 pm
Location: Halfway up

Re: The Queen

Post by TopBadger » Thu Sep 15, 2022 9:49 am

discovolante wrote:
Thu Sep 15, 2022 6:53 am
I know it's a bit of a cliché but I think if we were to look back on this in a couple of hundred years or whatever, I think we'd be astonished and probably a bit suspicious if there were no signs of unrest following the death of a wealthy monarch during a period where more and more people are at risk of freezing/going hungry/becoming homeless.
What's the Queen got to do with that? There are plenty of wealthy folks who manage to successfully preserve and hand down that wealth.

Or are you suggesting raising funds by selling of the Crown estate to Saudi? The royal art collection to Elon Musk? I'm sure we'll look back on losing those with pride.

Alternatively we could look at putting the blame where it lies... which is government policy around taxation, energy security, housebuilding standards, minimum wages, etc... Years of Tory rule have placed us where we are.
You can't polish a turd...
unless its Lion or Osterich poo... http://dsc.discovery.com/videos/mythbus ... -turd.html

User avatar
discovolante
Stummy Beige
Posts: 4084
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:10 pm

Re: The Queen

Post by discovolante » Thu Sep 15, 2022 9:59 am

TopBadger wrote:
Thu Sep 15, 2022 9:49 am
discovolante wrote:
Thu Sep 15, 2022 6:53 am
I know it's a bit of a cliché but I think if we were to look back on this in a couple of hundred years or whatever, I think we'd be astonished and probably a bit suspicious if there were no signs of unrest following the death of a wealthy monarch during a period where more and more people are at risk of freezing/going hungry/becoming homeless.
What's the Queen got to do with that? There are plenty of wealthy folks who manage to successfully preserve and hand down that wealth.

Or are you suggesting raising funds by selling of the Crown estate to Saudi? The royal art collection to Elon Musk? I'm sure we'll look back on losing those with pride.

Alternatively we could look at putting the blame where it lies... which is government policy around taxation, energy security, housebuilding standards, minimum wages, etc... Years of Tory rule have placed us where we are.
Well, one reason I don't spend a lot of time worrying about the monarchy day to day is because I feel that they are a bit of an easy and obvious target with extremely ostentatious displays of wealth (yes I know, crown estate etc), whereas some possibly greater and more significant injustices are less easy to see. But I was speaking in a one-day historical sense rather than saying it should happen. But God I'm repeating myself a lot here, people have entirely legitimate reasons to be angry and upset even if you don't agree with them. The same argument can go the other way but at the moment I'm generally more concerned with the feelings of people who don't have almost the entire media and force of the state behind them.
To defy the laws of tradition is a crusade only of the brave.

plodder
Stummy Beige
Posts: 2981
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:50 pm

Re: The Queen

Post by plodder » Thu Sep 15, 2022 10:07 am

spot on disco. There's something in the air and people are going to be looking for an outlet. The more outlets that get plugged up the more pressure will build in the next one.

It's not a considered, deliberate, step by step logical process where people say "well I won't be angry at this particular thing because I think you'll find in Article 6 of the Convention of Succession there is actually a sub clause that clearly delineates between properties owned by the Crown and properties appropriated by the Crown and actually I think you'll find that that ought to reassure you that there are actually provisions in place" because they'll be too busy setting fire to sh.t.

which, of course, will be annoying.

User avatar
Bird on a Fire
Princess POW
Posts: 10137
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:05 pm
Location: Portugal

Re: The Queen

Post by Bird on a Fire » Thu Sep 15, 2022 10:42 am

I hope you're right. The people of the UK have been frustratingly supine for too long. Hopefully they're starting to see behind the wizard's sleeves.
We have the right to a clean, healthy, sustainable environment.

User avatar
tenchboy
After Pie
Posts: 1891
Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2019 5:18 pm
Location: Down amongst the potamogeton.

Re: The Queen

Post by tenchboy » Thu Sep 15, 2022 11:49 am

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Thu Sep 15, 2022 10:42 am
I hope you're right. The people of the UK have been frustratingly supine for too long. Hopefully they're starting to see behind the wizard's sleeves.
:shock:
If you want me Steve, just Snapchat me yeah? You know how to Snapchap me doncha Steve? You just...

User avatar
Grumble
Light of Blast
Posts: 4747
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:03 pm

Re: The Queen

Post by Grumble » Thu Sep 15, 2022 11:56 am

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Thu Sep 15, 2022 10:42 am
I hope you're right. The people of the UK have been frustratingly supine for too long. Hopefully they're starting to see behind the wizard's sleeves.
As long as they’re not trying to look up the wizard’s sleeves.
where once I used to scintillate
now I sin till ten past three

User avatar
TopBadger
Catbabel
Posts: 782
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 6:33 pm
Location: Halfway up

Re: The Queen

Post by TopBadger » Thu Sep 15, 2022 2:31 pm

I'll happily admit I'm stick to the back teeth of all the TV coverage... how many hours of reporting are necessary for people walking past a coffin?

I'm trying to catch up on other news events at lunchtime and every news channel is covering this with up to the minute assessments of the size of the queue.

I can easily see how this is enraging republicans when it's also severely pissing me of as a moderate royalist*

*which I define as someone who thinks the current set-up, whilst not being ideal, isn't broke enough to fix anytime soon
You can't polish a turd...
unless its Lion or Osterich poo... http://dsc.discovery.com/videos/mythbus ... -turd.html

User avatar
Little waster
After Pie
Posts: 2385
Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2019 12:35 am
Location: About 1 inch behind my eyes

Re: The Queen

Post by Little waster » Thu Sep 15, 2022 3:07 pm

TopBadger wrote:
Thu Sep 15, 2022 2:31 pm
I'll happily admit I'm stick to the back teeth of all the TV coverage... how many hours of reporting are necessary for people walking past a coffin?
If you haven't quite had enough of it:-

Live stream of a box being a box

Your* welcome.

I might have been watching too much of The Capture but they could be showing the same 30 seconds on loop and we'd be none the wiser. :shock:
This place is not a place of honor, no highly esteemed deed is commemorated here, nothing valued is here.
What is here was dangerous and repulsive to us.
This place is best shunned and left uninhabited.

User avatar
Woodchopper
Princess POW
Posts: 7057
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2019 9:05 am

Re: The Queen

Post by Woodchopper » Thu Sep 15, 2022 4:48 pm

John Lydon wishes to distance himself from any Sex Pistols activity which aims to cash in on Queen Elizabeth II's death. The musicians in the band and their management have approved a number of requests against John's wishes on the basis of the majority court-ruling agreement.

In John's view, the timing for endorsing any Sex Pistols requests for commercial gain in connection with 'God Save The Queen' in particular is tasteless and disrespectful to the Queen and her family at this moment in time.

John wrote the lyrics to this historical song, and while he has never supported the monarchy, he feels that the family deserves some respect in this difficult time, as would be expected for any other person or family when someone close to them has died.
https://twitter.com/lydonofficial/statu ... NXsmbln1CQ

User avatar
Opti
Dorkwood
Posts: 1473
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 11:21 pm
Location: On the beach

Re: The Queen

Post by Opti » Thu Sep 15, 2022 5:07 pm

From FB.


@curiousIguana
‘Right, everyone. I need to be serious for a moment. Because the greatest thing that ever happened is happening right now.
I don't particularly care either way about the Queen. But the queue? The Queue is a triumph of Britishness. It's incredible.
Just to be clear: I don't mean the purpose of the queue. I don't mean the outpouring of emotion or collective gried or the event at the end and around the queue or the people in the queue. I mean, literally, the queue. The queue itself. It's like something from Douglas Adams.
It is the motherlode of queues. It is art. It is poetry. It is the queue to end all queues. It opened earlier today and is already 2.2 miles long. They will close it if it gets to FIVE MILES. That's a queue that would take TWO HOURS TO WALK at a brisk pace.
It is a queue that goes right through the entirety of London. It has toilets and water points and websites just for The Queue.
You cannot leave The Queue. You cannot get into The Queue further down. You cannot hold places in The Queue. There are wristbands for The Queue.
Once you join The Queue you can expect to be there for days. But you cannot have a chair and a sleeping bag. There is no sleeping in The Queue, for The Queue moves constantly and steadily, day and night. You will be shuffling along at 0.1 miles per hour for days.
There is a YouTube channel, Twitter feed and Instagram page, each giving frequent updates about The Queue. Because the back of The Queue, naturally, keeps moving. To join The Queue requires up to the minute knowledge of where The Queue is now.
The BBC has live coverage of The Queue on BBC One, and a Red Button service showing the front bit of The Queue.
NO ONE IN THEIR RIGHT MIND WOULD JOIN THE QUEUE AND YET STILL THEY COME. "Oh, it'll only be until 6am on Thursday, we can take soup".
And the end of the queue is a box. You will walk past the box, slowly, but for no more than a minute. Then you will exit into the London drizzle and make your way home.
- Curious Ig
Time for a big fat one.

User avatar
shpalman
Princess POW
Posts: 8244
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:53 pm
Location: One step beyond
Contact:

Re: The Queen

Post by shpalman » Thu Sep 15, 2022 5:58 pm

having that swing is a necessary but not sufficient condition for it meaning a thing
@shpalman@mastodon.me.uk

Herainestold
After Pie
Posts: 2029
Joined: Mon Nov 25, 2019 1:23 pm

Re: The Queen

Post by Herainestold » Thu Sep 15, 2022 6:43 pm

It would be great to see Republicans disrupt the queues (not the actual funeral ceremony), the time is ripe for a change, but we need an instigator.
Masking forever
Putin is a monster.
Russian socialism will rise again

User avatar
El Pollo Diablo
Stummy Beige
Posts: 3323
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:41 pm
Location: FBPE

Re: The Queen

Post by El Pollo Diablo » Thu Sep 15, 2022 7:02 pm

Yeah the cause of republicanism will be really assisted by a "republicans are c.nts" narrative
If truth is many-sided, mendacity is many-tongued

User avatar
Bird on a Fire
Princess POW
Posts: 10137
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:05 pm
Location: Portugal

Re: The Queen

Post by Bird on a Fire » Thu Sep 15, 2022 7:12 pm

El Pollo Diablo wrote:
Thu Sep 15, 2022 7:02 pm
Yeah the cause of republicanism will be really assisted by a "republicans are c.nts" narrative
Hey, it's working really well for environmentalists ;)
We have the right to a clean, healthy, sustainable environment.

Herainestold
After Pie
Posts: 2029
Joined: Mon Nov 25, 2019 1:23 pm

Re: The Queen

Post by Herainestold » Thu Sep 15, 2022 8:33 pm

You have to be annoying. Really annoying. Not violent.
The question is, where do you draw the line?
Masking forever
Putin is a monster.
Russian socialism will rise again

User avatar
Bird on a Fire
Princess POW
Posts: 10137
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:05 pm
Location: Portugal

Re: The Queen

Post by Bird on a Fire » Thu Sep 15, 2022 9:08 pm

Herainestold wrote:
Thu Sep 15, 2022 8:33 pm
You have to be annoying. Really annoying. Not violent.
The question is, where do you draw the line?
Have you seen how annoying I am on here?

And this isn't even me protesting.
We have the right to a clean, healthy, sustainable environment.

User avatar
Stephanie
Stummy Beige
Posts: 2896
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:38 pm
Location: clinging tenaciously to your buttocks

Re: The Queen

Post by Stephanie » Thu Sep 15, 2022 9:53 pm

I could be a lot more annoying, so people shouldn't tempt me tbqh honest. I hold back on here lol
"I got a flu virus named after me 'cause I kissed a bat on a dare."

User avatar
Bird on a Fire
Princess POW
Posts: 10137
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:05 pm
Location: Portugal

Re: The Queen

Post by Bird on a Fire » Thu Sep 15, 2022 10:06 pm

Stephanie wrote:
Thu Sep 15, 2022 9:53 pm
tbqh honest
🤠
We have the right to a clean, healthy, sustainable environment.

User avatar
Grumble
Light of Blast
Posts: 4747
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:03 pm

Re: The Queen

Post by Grumble » Thu Sep 15, 2022 10:44 pm

shpalman wrote:
Thu Sep 15, 2022 5:58 pm
Or, alternatively, it's from https://twitter.com/curiousiguana/statu ... 6028464128
If it wasn’t for that post I don’t think I’d be aware there was a queue
where once I used to scintillate
now I sin till ten past three

User avatar
Bird on a Fire
Princess POW
Posts: 10137
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:05 pm
Location: Portugal

Re: The Queen

Post by Bird on a Fire » Thu Sep 15, 2022 10:48 pm

Grumble wrote:
Thu Sep 15, 2022 10:44 pm
shpalman wrote:
Thu Sep 15, 2022 5:58 pm
Or, alternatively, it's from https://twitter.com/curiousiguana/statu ... 6028464128
If it wasn’t for that post I don’t think I’d be aware there was a queue
Yeah yeah, I saw you pushing in at the front for a gander at a dead old woman in a fancy box. "Wasn't aware there was a queue" pull the other 1 m8
We have the right to a clean, healthy, sustainable environment.

Post Reply