IvanV wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 3:05 pm
Nord Stream 2 is not in operation. So gas is not flowing through it.
I suppose it has some level of gas pressure in it, in the sense that it isn't full of water. It isn't abandoned, there is still some hope of using it. They can probably keep it topped up as necessary. But you wouldn't normally expect much gas leaking from a leak in a non-operational pipeline.
But at the moment, the sanctions on Russia, and operational constraints, mean that it is having to flare off large amounts of excess gas. So it might entertain it to pump more gas than it really needs to down the Nord Stream 2 to escape from the leaks.
The leak is said to be near Bornholm, an island of Denmark. The pipeline does enter Danish water for some distance near Bornholm. It is the only section that leaves international water from leaving Russian water to entering German water. I can imagine the Danes might find themselves felling compelled to pump concrete in to stop the leaks.
Woodchopper wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 3:44 pm
Thread by someone who know their stuff suggests that if it was a Russian attack it could have been carried out by robotic submarines. If so they would have needed a ship nearby. https://twitter.com/covertshores/status ... s-xF5beEVQ
More or less what I reckon, not that I have any real knowledge
where once I used to scintillate
now I sin till ten past three
But Nord Stream 2 never even started pumping, I thought.
$11 billion wasted. Capitalism managed to spend a fortune on fossil fuel infrastructure that was nothing but a blackmail device. The Russians have achieved a significant decarbonisation of the European economy by locking Germany and Co. into a race to establish alternatives.
Time for Putin to learn how to spell pyrrhic victory.
So my guess would be that they were keeping it at sufficient pressure to ensure no seawater gets in through any tiny leaks, and no corrosion from contact with air. I read that the Langeled pipeline from Norway to England operates at pressures of up to 250 bars. The water pressure at 75m depth is roughly 7.5 bars. So the kind of pressure you'd need to keep it at to ensure no water ingress is perfectly feasible, and well below typical pipeline operating pressures.
So my guess would be that they were keeping it at sufficient pressure to ensure no seawater gets in through any tiny leaks, and no corrosion from contact with air. I read that the Langeled pipeline from Norway to England operates at pressures of up to 250 bars. The water pressure at 75m depth is roughly 7.5 bars. So the kind of pressure you'd need to keep it at to ensure no water ingress is perfectly feasible, and well below typical pipeline operating pressures.
The Guardian article from yesterday with the initial report of the pressure loss in Nordstream 2 mentions that it had dropped from 105 to 7 bar overnight.
Which corresponds to your guess https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... -overnight
My avatar was a scientific result that was later found to be 'mistaken' - I rarely claim to be 100% correct
ETA 5/8/20: I've been advised that the result was correct, it was the initial interpretation that needed to be withdrawn
Meta? I'd say so!
Danish media reporting Swedish seismologists stating that an explosion was equivalent to 100 kilos of dynamite and was in the water not underground (as would be expected from a geological event). https://www.bt.dk/udland/live-kaempe-ga ... eredskabet
So my guess would be that they were keeping it at sufficient pressure to ensure no seawater gets in through any tiny leaks, and no corrosion from contact with air. I read that the Langeled pipeline from Norway to England operates at pressures of up to 250 bars. The water pressure at 75m depth is roughly 7.5 bars. So the kind of pressure you'd need to keep it at to ensure no water ingress is perfectly feasible, and well below typical pipeline operating pressures.
The Guardian article from yesterday with the initial report of the pressure loss in Nordstream 2 mentions that it had dropped from 105 to 7 bar overnight.
Which corresponds to your guess https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... -overnight
That's an indication that the 105 bar maintenance pressure suddenly dropped to the pipeline ambient pressure as a result of the leaks.
That means that seawater will have gotten into the pipeline.
Nord Stream 2, which is not in operation, was nonetheless filled with 117 million cubic meters of natural gas — worth €213 million at current prices — to bring pipeline pressure up to 300 bar in anticipation of being allowed to flow.
(From an email newsletter, not a webpage, so I can't link. Sorry)
IvanV wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 5:20 pm
So my guess would be that they were keeping it at sufficient pressure to ensure no seawater gets in through any tiny leaks, and no corrosion from contact with air. I read that the Langeled pipeline from Norway to England operates at pressures of up to 250 bars. The water pressure at 75m depth is roughly 7.5 bars. So the kind of pressure you'd need to keep it at to ensure no water ingress is perfectly feasible, and well below typical pipeline operating pressures.
The Guardian article from yesterday with the initial report of the pressure loss in Nordstream 2 mentions that it had dropped from 105 to 7 bar overnight.
Which corresponds to your guess https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... -overnight
That's an indication that the 105 bar maintenance pressure suddenly dropped to the pipeline ambient pressure as a result of the leaks.
That means that seawater will have gotten into the pipeline.
Which presumably means that some part of the pipeline is totally knackered for the foreseeable future.
"All models are wrong but some are useful" - George Box
IvanV wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 3:05 pm
The leak is said to be near Bornholm, an island of Denmark. The pipeline does enter Danish water for some distance near Bornholm. It is the only section that leaves international water from leaving Russian water to entering German water.
The pipeline does pass through Danish territorial waters at some point, but according to a photo caption in a New York Times article, the NS2 leak is 13 nautical miles southeast of Bornholm, conveniently 1 mile outside the territorial limit.
According to a Danish news site, "All three leaks have occurred in the sea off Bornholm, but in international waters. One leak on the Nord Stream 1 pipeline occurred in what is called the Danish economic zone, while the other occurred in the Swedish economic zone."(English translation via Google Translate)
Woodchopper wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 3:44 pm
Thread by someone who know their stuff suggests that if it was a Russian attack it could have been carried out by robotic submarines. If so they would have needed a ship nearby. https://twitter.com/covertshores/status ... s-xF5beEVQ
Thread in Swedish. Apparently a Russian research ship passed by the area in early September and its transponder was off for a day when it was near the site of the explosions. https://twitter.com/leifnixon/status/15 ... Bx4D4dyQSw
If the pipeline ever gets fully surveyed, I won't be entitely surprised if there are multiple demolition charges placed ready and waiting by every country with the capability, just in case.
I'm tempted the think, assuming this was the Russians, that it would have been to increase panic in the west. It might have been timed around the opening of the Baltic Pipe.
Now would be a very good time to reiterate that Article 5 applies to our pipelines and other pieces of vital infrastructure that we are actually using.
E Rosalie
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Whatever happened, we *will* know. While we wait-- let's talk about the late Boris Nemtsov. Minutes after he was murdered, accounts online began to deny or push incoherent stories about his death. With no reporting, these accounts had a lot of theories. https://openfacto.fr/2022/01/27/the-gru ... -websites/
6:31 AM · Sep 28, 2022
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E Rosalie
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It was high volume, incoherent, and without a doubt coordinated. While I am not prepared to make any concrete assertions about activity we've seen yesterday and today what I can tell you is that the Hoaxlines trending headline tracker surfaced some interesting content.
The 700-meter wide pool of bubbling water in the Baltic Sea caused by the rupture of the Nord Stream gas pipelines points to a climate disaster.
It’s the most visible of three major gas leaks emanating from the pipelines connecting Russia to Europe. Germany estimated that about 300,000 metric tons of methane, one of the most powerful greenhouse gases, entered the atmosphere as a result of the releases. That amount of the gas would have roughly the same climate impact over a 20-year period as the annual emissions from about 5.48 million US cars.
