Consumer pressure to end plastic packaging in shops could actually be harming the environment, a report says... Firms are swapping to other packaging materials which are potentially even worse for the environment, the cross-party Parliamentary group warns...Glass bottles, for instance, are much heavier than plastic so are far more polluting to transport...Paper bags tend to have higher carbon emissions than plastic bags – and are more difficult to re-use.
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Andrew Opie, from the British Retail Consortium: “Plastic remains the most effective material in many circumstances - for example cucumbers wrapped in plastic last 14 days longer, reducing food waste .
Plastic packaging is not the enemy
- Tessa K
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Plastic packaging is not the enemy
This is something that botanist James Wong has been saying for a while especially regarding food waste (which is shamefully massive) and it's good to see a report going into more detail.
- discovolante
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Re: Plastic packaging is not the enemy
I have nothing sensible or evidenced based to add atm but overall i feel (broadly speaking) we are almost hard wired to see the solution to problems such as plastic, food waste etc as being to replace one type of consumption with another, rather than just trying to look at how we can reduce consumption. E.g. buying reusable coffee cups rather than just not having a cup of coffee on the go.
I do mean broadly speaking but I'm kind of interested to see if my hunch is right or not. I mean the reality is that we need to eat and practically nobody has the space or time to even consider being remotely self-sustaining so there are limits to what we can do. But e.g. buying lots of snacks in disposable packaging, buying new clothes etc.
We have had discussions about buying new economic appliances vs running old ones into the ground quite a few times but I'm talking more broadly here.
I do mean broadly speaking but I'm kind of interested to see if my hunch is right or not. I mean the reality is that we need to eat and practically nobody has the space or time to even consider being remotely self-sustaining so there are limits to what we can do. But e.g. buying lots of snacks in disposable packaging, buying new clothes etc.
We have had discussions about buying new economic appliances vs running old ones into the ground quite a few times but I'm talking more broadly here.
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Re: Plastic packaging is not the enemy
That's something I feel too, particularly with "zero waste" being particularly trendy. I feel there's also too much focus on packaging as the sole cause of all ills and people aren't looking critically at other aspects of their lifestyle such as transport choices, food choices, an egg consumption etc.etc.discovolante wrote: ↑Thu Jan 09, 2020 11:19 amI have nothing sensible or evidenced based to add atm but overall i feel (broadly speaking) we are almost hard wired to see the solution to problems such as plastic, food waste etc as being to replace one type of consumption with another, rather than just trying to look at how we can reduce consumption. E.g. buying reusable coffee cups rather than just not having a cup of coffee on the go.
I do mean broadly speaking but I'm kind of interested to see if my hunch is right or not. I mean the reality is that we need to eat and practically nobody has the space or time to even consider being remotely self-sustaining so there are limits to what we can do. But e.g. buying lots of snacks in disposable packaging, buying new clothes etc.
We have had discussions about buying new economic appliances vs running old ones into the ground quite a few times but I'm talking more broadly here.
Re: Plastic packaging is not the enemy
Optimising for two different constraints is always a problem. Is the extra carbon emitted from using glass over plastic worth it for the reduction of plastic crap flowing into the environment? What’s the cost of mitigating the pollution caused by plastic waste?
Also. Don’t drink bottled water.
Also. Don’t drink bottled water.
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Re: Plastic packaging is not the enemy
This^bjn wrote: ↑Thu Jan 09, 2020 11:29 amOptimising for two different constraints is always a problem. Is the extra carbon emitted from using glass over plastic worth it for the reduction of plastic crap flowing into the environment? What’s the cost of mitigating the pollution caused by plastic waste?
Also. Don’t drink bottled water.
Plastic packaging is a easy consumer win - it's obvious you can see it, and think surely it must be better without it. (esp with Blue Planet turtles in mind) Consumers don't see all the backroom costs and tradeoffs involved. One of the big issues with CO2 has been that it's not immediately obvious.
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Re: Plastic packaging is not the enemy
I think reusable stuff is not problematic as long as it isn’t preventing another benefit - so coffee cups would be fine, but dispensing cereal in the store might lead to more food waste. I also think the drive to reduce disposable bag usage is good, I know I’m more likely to take a backpack these days.discovolante wrote: ↑Thu Jan 09, 2020 11:19 amwe are almost hard wired to see the solution to problems such as plastic, food waste etc as being to replace one type of consumption with another, rather than just trying to look at how we can reduce consumption. E.g. buying reusable coffee cups rather than just not having a cup of coffee on the go.
I’m wondering currently if I should replace my diesel car with an electric. It’s nowhere near the end of its life.
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now I sin till ten past three
Re: Plastic packaging is not the enemy
Presumeably you'd sell it rather than scrap it, so then it's a question of whether it displaces a more polluting banger, or the purchase of a less polluting car, or is used by someone who was formerly using public transport without too much issue.
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Re: Plastic packaging is not the enemy
The Coop here have been giving out the compostable bags you use in your food recycler as their paid-for carrier bags, which seems a small but good idea.
Just tell 'em I'm broke and don't come round here no more.
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Re: Plastic packaging is not the enemy
There is a shop near me that sells food (cereal, beans etc) and shower gel etc from dispensers. I dunno exactly what they get the food delivered in. The shampoo and stuff is in fairly big tub which I assume is 'better' than individual packages because the overall amount of plastic is probably less. I keep meaning to ask them more about it but haven't got round to it yet.Grumble wrote: ↑Thu Jan 09, 2020 11:41 amI think reusable stuff is not problematic as long as it isn’t preventing another benefit - so coffee cups would be fine, but dispensing cereal in the store might lead to more food waste. I also think the drive to reduce disposable bag usage is good, I know I’m more likely to take a backpack these days.discovolante wrote: ↑Thu Jan 09, 2020 11:19 amwe are almost hard wired to see the solution to problems such as plastic, food waste etc as being to replace one type of consumption with another, rather than just trying to look at how we can reduce consumption. E.g. buying reusable coffee cups rather than just not having a cup of coffee on the go.
I’m wondering currently if I should replace my diesel car with an electric. It’s nowhere near the end of its life.
Re cars...urgh...me and Señor von Laté are looking for a car now (we will need one soon) and really want something that is nice and fuel efficient but goddamn they're expensive, I can't really afford a relatively one at the moment, even second hand. We can get a relatively old banger for a few thousand but they will probably be fairly fuel-guzzly in comparison. Electric is out of the question.
To defy the laws of tradition is a crusade only of the brave.
Re: Plastic packaging is not the enemy
We noticed last year that Lidl in France were using these for their 'loose fruit and veg' bags.GeenDienst wrote: ↑Thu Jan 09, 2020 12:05 pmThe Coop here have been giving out the compostable bags you use in your food recycler as their paid-for carrier bags, which seems a small but good idea.
And for the first time ever (I think) I got a replacement 'bag for life' as the original had deteriorated (it was one that had been sitting on a windowsill for many months and split when I went to use it). The replacement isn't as good though - slightly smaller and worse handles.
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Re: Plastic packaging is not the enemy
Just seen someone in their huge 4x4 on route to the dump to get their Christmas tree recycled. Not sure what to think about that.
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Re: Plastic packaging is not the enemy
They make a very good basis for a garden bonfire. As do Christmas trees.Boustrophedon wrote: ↑Thu Jan 09, 2020 1:04 pmJust seen someone in their huge 4x4 on route to the dump to get their Christmas tree recycled. Not sure what to think about that.
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ETA 5/8/20: I've been advised that the result was correct, it was the initial interpretation that needed to be withdrawn
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Re: Plastic packaging is not the enemy
Quite. I am also not sure about driving any distance to recycle glass bottles either. Glass can be recycled but it can also not be recycled and it poses virtually no harm to the environment if it isn't. Grind it up and use it as aggregate.Gfamily wrote: ↑Thu Jan 09, 2020 1:07 pmThey make a very good basis for a garden bonfire. As do Christmas trees.Boustrophedon wrote: ↑Thu Jan 09, 2020 1:04 pmJust seen someone in their huge 4x4 on route to the dump to get their Christmas tree recycled. Not sure what to think about that.
The debate should not be about packaging or recycling but about "the last mile." If all supermarkets were online and delivery was by electric van using paper bags, think of all the car-miles that would be avoided. You don't even need a supermarket, just a warehouse. Hell the same van could collect the recycling. But this ideal is not something that the market economy can deliver. The free market has given us plastic bottles (Yes Marmite I am looking at you.) single use plastic packaging and vast out of town supermarkets, unusable without a car.
Hjulet snurrar men hamstern är död.
Re: Plastic packaging is not the enemy
Even petrol and diesel delivery vans give a substantial reduction in emissions over everyone driving to the supermarket. Probably even if they all drove in electric cars.Boustrophedon wrote: ↑Thu Jan 09, 2020 1:20 pmQuite. I am also not sure about driving any distance to recycle glass bottles either. Glass can be recycled but it can also not be recycled and it poses virtually no harm to the environment if it isn't. Grind it up and use it as aggregate.Gfamily wrote: ↑Thu Jan 09, 2020 1:07 pmThey make a very good basis for a garden bonfire. As do Christmas trees.Boustrophedon wrote: ↑Thu Jan 09, 2020 1:04 pmJust seen someone in their huge 4x4 on route to the dump to get their Christmas tree recycled. Not sure what to think about that.
The debate should not be about packaging or recycling but about "the last mile." If all supermarkets were online and delivery was by electric van using paper bags, think of all the car-miles that would be avoided. You don't even need a supermarket, just a warehouse. Hell the same van could collect the recycling. But this ideal is not something that the market economy can deliver. The free market has given us plastic bottles (Yes Marmite I am looking at you.) single use plastic packaging and vast out of town supermarkets, unusable without a car.
- sTeamTraen
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Re: Plastic packaging is not the enemy
When I was a lad in the 1960s, an electric vehicle delivered milk, eggs, bread, etc to our door every morning with no bags whatsoever, and picked up yesterday's milk bottles for recycling. I believe that the availability of this may not have been limited to the nicer parts of Birmingham.Boustrophedon wrote: ↑Thu Jan 09, 2020 1:20 pmIf all supermarkets were online and delivery was by electric van using paper bags, think of all the car-miles that would be avoided.
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Re: Plastic packaging is not the enemy
Indeed. People conflate the issues of plastic pollution and carbon dioxide increases quite a lot. Yes, in many cases using plastic saves carbon. In lots of cases it's still damaging to the environment.
If truth is many-sided, mendacity is many-tongued
Re: Plastic packaging is not the enemy
I remember listening to a BBC podcast a year or two ago (wish I could remember which one) which talked about this topic. It said that while people complain about things like plastic-wrapped cucumbers and the packaging on fruit, without it there's much greater spoilage and wastage from bruising. It also mentioned that the starch-based packaging that is seen as a suitable alternative isn't actually that great at composting and needs high temperatures to degrade, temperatures that are rarely achieved in home compost bins. I really wish I could remember the podcast but I listen to so much stuff from the BBC I can't even remember which series it was from, let alone when exactly it was broadcast.
Closer to my area of interest is marine plastics. While people get all excited over plastic bags and straws and things like that, the biggest plastic sources in the oceans are fishing gear. A study published in Scientific Reports in 2018 on the composition of the Great Pacific Garbage Patch found not only was it a lot bigger than previously estimated (least 79 thousand tonnes of ocean plastic) but that a substantial portion of that plastic was from fishing gear. According to the paper, "at least half of the collected GPGP plastics was composed of objects from marine based sources". A lot of the macroplastics (>50cm) were decades old (some datable to the 70s!) and the vast majority (92%) were fishing gear in the form of rope, line and nets. These items ghostfish until they decompose and given that the decomposition appears to be on the scale of decades that's a lot of marine animals being caught and killed unnecessarily. Plastic bags and straws aren't great, but the biggest thing we could do to reduce the introduction of plastics into the marine environment is to prevent the dumping or abandonment of broken fishing gear. The FAO produced recommendations in 2016 that recommended tagging nets and lines so that they could be located to allow collection and/or prosecution. I'm not aware of the recommendations having been implemented though.
If people actually care about the marine environment there needs to be a greater recognition of the impact of the fishing industry not just directly in terms of overfishing but in its contribution to marine plastics and habitat destruction. Personally I'd love to see the banning of bottom trawling. I've seen it first-hand and the amount of habitat destruction that can occur is shocking. Force companies to barcode or tag all their gear and whenever it gets found, prosecute them (this will require strengthening of international marine law and tackling flags of convenience which is a whole other problem). But we can persuade companies change without changes in law - look at how tuna is now largely (at least in the UK) pole and line caught rather than purse-seine due to public pressure. Look at the popularity of MSC-certified fish. I was at a conference a couple of years ago where a high-up in a fishing company was talking about all the ways they were trying to improve fuel efficiency and cut their CO2 emissions due to public concern. If we can turn straws into pariah objects in a year think what we could do if we turned on the fishing companies. And it would be a hell of a lot more productive and an awful lot less ableist than the straw ban.
Closer to my area of interest is marine plastics. While people get all excited over plastic bags and straws and things like that, the biggest plastic sources in the oceans are fishing gear. A study published in Scientific Reports in 2018 on the composition of the Great Pacific Garbage Patch found not only was it a lot bigger than previously estimated (least 79 thousand tonnes of ocean plastic) but that a substantial portion of that plastic was from fishing gear. According to the paper, "at least half of the collected GPGP plastics was composed of objects from marine based sources". A lot of the macroplastics (>50cm) were decades old (some datable to the 70s!) and the vast majority (92%) were fishing gear in the form of rope, line and nets. These items ghostfish until they decompose and given that the decomposition appears to be on the scale of decades that's a lot of marine animals being caught and killed unnecessarily. Plastic bags and straws aren't great, but the biggest thing we could do to reduce the introduction of plastics into the marine environment is to prevent the dumping or abandonment of broken fishing gear. The FAO produced recommendations in 2016 that recommended tagging nets and lines so that they could be located to allow collection and/or prosecution. I'm not aware of the recommendations having been implemented though.
If people actually care about the marine environment there needs to be a greater recognition of the impact of the fishing industry not just directly in terms of overfishing but in its contribution to marine plastics and habitat destruction. Personally I'd love to see the banning of bottom trawling. I've seen it first-hand and the amount of habitat destruction that can occur is shocking. Force companies to barcode or tag all their gear and whenever it gets found, prosecute them (this will require strengthening of international marine law and tackling flags of convenience which is a whole other problem). But we can persuade companies change without changes in law - look at how tuna is now largely (at least in the UK) pole and line caught rather than purse-seine due to public pressure. Look at the popularity of MSC-certified fish. I was at a conference a couple of years ago where a high-up in a fishing company was talking about all the ways they were trying to improve fuel efficiency and cut their CO2 emissions due to public concern. If we can turn straws into pariah objects in a year think what we could do if we turned on the fishing companies. And it would be a hell of a lot more productive and an awful lot less ableist than the straw ban.
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Re: Plastic packaging is not the enemy
Running an electric car still causes CO2 emissions at the power station obviously, at least some of the time, and the overall efficiency of generating and transmitting the electricity and then charging and discharging the battery is a lot less than that of a modern diesel engine. There was a German paper cited on Twitter recently that even claimed electric cars are no better than diesel ones for carbon, partly because of that but also because of the much greater embodied energy in manufacturing the battery.
If it was me (and we’re in a similar place as it happens) I would start by trying to find out what the actual NOx emissions of your diesel are, as I believe the ones that are bad for that are really bad while the ones that aren’t are a while lot better. Not sure where you find that info most easily but if I discover I’ll share it.
I can share the German paper too, but it is in German.
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Re: Plastic packaging is not the enemy
I'm not sure about that.nekomatic wrote: ↑Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:34 pm
Running an electric car still causes CO2 emissions at the power station obviously, at least some of the time, and the overall efficiency of generating and transmitting the electricity and then charging and discharging the battery is a lot less than that of a modern diesel engine.
CCGT can produce electricity at almost 65% efficiency - and charge/discharge is at least 80% efficient for Li-Ion, giving a net efficiency of 52%
Whereas diesel ICEs peak at about 45%
Given that typically 40-50% of UK electricity is renewable/nuclear, there's a definite argument for swapping to electric on CO2 grounds, possibly by a factor of two.
Unless I've got my figures wrong.
My avatar was a scientific result that was later found to be 'mistaken' - I rarely claim to be 100% correct
ETA 5/8/20: I've been advised that the result was correct, it was the initial interpretation that needed to be withdrawn
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ETA 5/8/20: I've been advised that the result was correct, it was the initial interpretation that needed to be withdrawn
Meta? I'd say so!
Re: Plastic packaging is not the enemy
I have me doubts about the veracity of that. The union of concerned scientists did a cradle to grave analysis of BEVs vs ICEs and, BEVs come out on top. There has quite a bit of deliberate FUD spread about the CO2 costs of BEVs, mostly stemming from a heroically poor Swedish study.nekomatic wrote: ↑Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:34 pmRunning an electric car still causes CO2 emissions at the power station obviously, at least some of the time, and the overall efficiency of generating and transmitting the electricity and then charging and discharging the battery is a lot less than that of a modern diesel engine. There was a German paper cited on Twitter recently that even claimed electric cars are no better than diesel ones for carbon, partly because of that but also because of the much greater embodied energy in manufacturing the battery.
If it was me (and we’re in a similar place as it happens) I would start by trying to find out what the actual NOx emissions of your diesel are, as I believe the ones that are bad for that are really bad while the ones that aren’t are a while lot better. Not sure where you find that info most easily but if I discover I’ll share it.
I can share the German paper too, but it is in German.
From my understanding (an arstechica article I can’t find again), well over 50% of the embedded CO2 from battery production is from drying out various chemical solutions. Note that this isn’t intrinsic to battery production, dry them out with renewable energy and you drop the CO2 emissions. Something you can’t ever do with an ICE.
Re: Plastic packaging is not the enemy
In the "unintended consequences" category for electric cars, a lot of the lithium for the batteries comes from the salt flats in South America and the mining is doing a lot of environmental and economic damage to the region. The BBC had a podcast on this a few months ago and the Washington Post has an article on it from a couple of years ago.
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Re: Plastic packaging is not the enemy
Yeah, it doesn't seem to have occurred to the campaigners that the supermarkets don't spend money on this for no reason.Fishnut wrote: ↑Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:49 pmI remember listening to a BBC podcast a year or two ago (wish I could remember which one) which talked about this topic. It said that while people complain about things like plastic-wrapped cucumbers and the packaging on fruit, without it there's much greater spoilage and wastage from bruising.
An additional irony is that very often the organic variety will be the (only) one that is plastic-wrapped. For example, my local supermarket might sell loose lemons at say €1.50 per kg but a 500g pre-sealed bag of organic lemons costs €1.00. The organic ones have to be wrapped because if they were also loose in a separate bin, people would bag them and weigh them (if weighing is self-service; if not, the weigher or cashier has no way to tell the difference) as non-organic. I pointed this out once to an acquaintance who is a big fan of organic and she said "Well, they should just train the cashiers to tell the difference, I'm sure I can tell, the organic ones are so much <whatever>er".
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Re: Plastic packaging is not the enemy
Yet here both organic and not-organic lemons are sold loose side by side, with no issue.sTeamTraen wrote: ↑Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:26 pmYeah, it doesn't seem to have occurred to the campaigners that the supermarkets don't spend money on this for no reason.Fishnut wrote: ↑Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:49 pmI remember listening to a BBC podcast a year or two ago (wish I could remember which one) which talked about this topic. It said that while people complain about things like plastic-wrapped cucumbers and the packaging on fruit, without it there's much greater spoilage and wastage from bruising.
An additional irony is that very often the organic variety will be the (only) one that is plastic-wrapped. For example, my local supermarket might sell loose lemons at say €1.50 per kg but a 500g pre-sealed bag of organic lemons costs €1.00. The organic ones have to be wrapped because if they were also loose in a separate bin, people would bag them and weigh them (if weighing is self-service; if not, the weigher or cashier has no way to tell the difference) as non-organic. I pointed this out once to an acquaintance who is a big fan of organic and she said "Well, they should just train the cashiers to tell the difference, I'm sure I can tell, the organic ones are so much <whatever>er".
There's little stickers on them with the product code.
Re: Plastic packaging is not the enemy
That sucks, and cobalt mining sucks as well, does it suck more than the oil industry?Fishnut wrote: ↑Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:25 pmIn the "unintended consequences" category for electric cars, a lot of the lithium for the batteries comes from the salt flats in South America and the mining is doing a lot of environmental and economic damage to the region. The BBC had a podcast on this a few months ago and the Washington Post has an article on it from a couple of years ago.
Re: Plastic packaging is not the enemy
This is purely anecdotal, but I've heard from a couple of people in my town that they have had neighbours reject offers of free apples straight from the tree because they weren't wrapped in plastic and were therefore somehow unhygienic. I'm not sure where they think the shop-bought apples come from but there you go.sTeamTraen wrote: ↑Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:26 pmYeah, it doesn't seem to have occurred to the campaigners that the supermarkets don't spend money on this for no reason.Fishnut wrote: ↑Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:49 pmI remember listening to a BBC podcast a year or two ago (wish I could remember which one) which talked about this topic. It said that while people complain about things like plastic-wrapped cucumbers and the packaging on fruit, without it there's much greater spoilage and wastage from bruising.
An additional irony is that very often the organic variety will be the (only) one that is plastic-wrapped. For example, my local supermarket might sell loose lemons at say €1.50 per kg but a 500g pre-sealed bag of organic lemons costs €1.00. The organic ones have to be wrapped because if they were also loose in a separate bin, people would bag them and weigh them (if weighing is self-service; if not, the weigher or cashier has no way to tell the difference) as non-organic. I pointed this out once to an acquaintance who is a big fan of organic and she said "Well, they should just train the cashiers to tell the difference, I'm sure I can tell, the organic ones are so much <whatever>er".
I remember hearing that cucumbers are wrapped because it increases their shelf-life. Turns out this is true. I found a report from WRAP (The Waste and Resources Action Programme) who studied the effect of packaging on all sorts of products and published their findings here. For cucumbers, the number of days the cucumbers maintained their shelf-life were significantly longer when they were wrapped (data summarised from p19), They also compared the carbon impact and due to the significantly higher wastage for unwrapped cucumbers (over 4 times more in one study) the carbon impact is significantly higher too. Oh, and the unwrapped cucumbers need a tray liner which the wrapped ones didn't and it has a much higher carbon impact than the wrapper (page 20)
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