15 minute cities

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Millennie Al
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Re: 15 minute cities

Post by Millennie Al » Sat Feb 11, 2023 2:06 am

There would seem to be an awful lot of garbled information on this topic. This is an official statement on the Oxford scheme: https://www.oxford.gov.uk/news/article/ ... ic_filters

Despite saying:
what we are aiming to do is to ensure that areas of the city such as Barton, Blackbird Leys and Rose Hill have all the essential services that areas such as East Oxford and Jericho already have.
there is nothing in it to advance that goal. It is purely a ban on some traffic. It seeks to reduce car usage by making people travel further in their cars. Maybe it is part of a grand plan that includes lots of other stuff, but that''s not linked to or mentioned.

And the cited page complains of misinformation, yet indulges in it itself:
The independent survey company summarised some responses as generally positive or negative. This showed that 8% of the answers could be broadly categorised as “Disagree with schemes/Can’t see benefits”, while 7% could be broadly categorised as “Support/agree with scheme/Can see the benefits”. The 93% figure is not found anywhere in the 73-page report.
However, claiming that only 8% are negative seems very far from the truth. I would regard many of the classifications as negative (e.g. "Plan will increase pollution"), and some are ambiguous (e.g. "Public transport needs generally improving") because some people might intend that to mean that public transport needs improving rather than this scheme or that it is a necessary prerequisite (so without it the view would be negative). They certainly should not be regarded as positive, which does in fact leave those clearly expressing a view in favour being the 7%. And if you read the whole report (https://mycouncil.oxfordshire.gov.uk/do ... hecked.pdf) you will find that that was about Table 29, while there is a question in Table 32:
Do you have any other views on the proposals?
and 17% were classified as "Disagree with proposal(s)", which is a lot more than 8%

However, I would very much agree with their final sentiment:
deliberate misrepresentation of data is harmful to the public debate
But wait, there's more. The figures seem wrong. Table 29 says "All responding n=4814", and the 8% and 7% classes are 764 and 656 responses respectively. That should surely be 16% and 14%?? And Table 32 says "All responding n=4606" but says that the disagree class is 17% with 1605 responses. That should surely be 35%???!!! What's going on here??

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Re: 15 minute cities

Post by TimW » Sat Feb 11, 2023 1:04 pm

Millennie Al wrote:
Sat Feb 11, 2023 2:06 am
There would seem to be an awful lot of garbled information on this topic. This is an official statement on the Oxford scheme: https://www.oxford.gov.uk/news/article/ ... ic_filters

Despite saying:
what we are aiming to do is to ensure that areas of the city such as Barton, Blackbird Leys and Rose Hill have all the essential services that areas such as East Oxford and Jericho already have.
there is nothing in it to advance that goal. It is purely a ban on some traffic. It seeks to reduce car usage by making people travel further in their cars. Maybe it is part of a grand plan that includes lots of other stuff, but that''s not linked to or mentioned.
It's mentioned.
The misinformation online has linked the traffic filters to the 15-minute neighbourhoods proposal in the City Council’s Local Plan 2040, suggesting that the traffic filters will be used to confine people to their local area. This is not true.

The 15-minute neighbourhoods proposal aims to ensure that every resident has all the essentials (shops, healthcare, parks) within a 15-minute walk of their home. They aim to support and add services, not restrict them.

For the benefit of Oxford residents, what we are aiming to do is to ensure that areas of the city such as Barton, Blackbird Leys and Rose Hill have all the essential services that areas such as East Oxford and Jericho already have.
You quoted that last bit but, like it says, that's a separate proposal.

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Re: 15 minute cities

Post by dyqik » Sat Feb 11, 2023 2:05 pm

There's a surprise, Millennie Al contributing to garbled information online.

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Re: 15 minute cities

Post by Millennie Al » Sun Feb 12, 2023 3:29 am

TimW wrote:
Sat Feb 11, 2023 1:04 pm
Millennie Al wrote:
Sat Feb 11, 2023 2:06 am
This is an official statement on the Oxford scheme: https://www.oxford.gov.uk/news/article/ ... ic_filters

Despite saying:
what we are aiming to do is to ensure that areas of the city such as Barton, Blackbird Leys and Rose Hill have all the essential services that areas such as East Oxford and Jericho already have.
there is nothing in it to advance that goal. It is purely a ban on some traffic. It seeks to reduce car usage by making people travel further in their cars. Maybe it is part of a grand plan that includes lots of other stuff, but that''s not linked to or mentioned.
It's mentioned.
The misinformation online has linked the traffic filters to the 15-minute neighbourhoods proposal in the City Council’s Local Plan 2040,
Firstly, since that says that misinformation is linking the filters to that plan, I understod it to mean that the filters were not part of the plan. Maybe in fact that was not misinformation, they are linked, and the true misinformation is the statement that it is misinformation.

Secondly, looking at that plan (https://www.oxford.gov.uk/info/20067/pl ... _plan_2040 ) it does not seem to have anything that does in fact ensure the services are suitably distributed. The plan does not seem to be finalised, but to the extent that there are provisions with regard to facilities, the most any of the options seem to provide is ensuring planning permission is available for suitable developments. That is permitting but not ensuring things. The only way that results in the proper distribution of facilities is by the new restrictions causing a demand for more local facilities which in turn causes development to meet that demand.

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Re: 15 minute cities

Post by Millennie Al » Sun Feb 12, 2023 3:32 am

dyqik wrote:
Sat Feb 11, 2023 2:05 pm
There's a surprise, Millennie Al contributing to garbled information online.
There's a surprise, a whinger making a valueless post.

If you disagree with something, how about pointing out some incorrect facts or incorrect logic? Or do you prefer to revel in a sense of smug superiority at the thought of others being supid otr ignorant?

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Re: 15 minute cities

Post by Grumble » Sun Feb 12, 2023 9:37 am

Millennie Al wrote:
Sun Feb 12, 2023 3:29 am
TimW wrote:
Sat Feb 11, 2023 1:04 pm
Millennie Al wrote:
Sat Feb 11, 2023 2:06 am
This is an official statement on the Oxford scheme: https://www.oxford.gov.uk/news/article/ ... ic_filters

Despite saying:



there is nothing in it to advance that goal. It is purely a ban on some traffic. It seeks to reduce car usage by making people travel further in their cars. Maybe it is part of a grand plan that includes lots of other stuff, but that''s not linked to or mentioned.
It's mentioned.
The misinformation online has linked the traffic filters to the 15-minute neighbourhoods proposal in the City Council’s Local Plan 2040,
Firstly, since that says that misinformation is linking the filters to that plan, I understod it to mean that the filters were not part of the plan. Maybe in fact that was not misinformation, they are linked, and the true misinformation is the statement that it is misinformation.

Secondly, looking at that plan (https://www.oxford.gov.uk/info/20067/pl ... _plan_2040 ) it does not seem to have anything that does in fact ensure the services are suitably distributed. The plan does not seem to be finalised, but to the extent that there are provisions with regard to facilities, the most any of the options seem to provide is ensuring planning permission is available for suitable developments. That is permitting but not ensuring things. The only way that results in the proper distribution of facilities is by the new restrictions causing a demand for more local facilities which in turn causes development to meet that demand.
There are two completely different things, a traffic filter proposal, which is reasonably well advanced, and a 15 minute neighbourhood proposal which is an aspiration that they want to turn into a plan.

There is nothing in the traffic filter proposal about 15 minute neighbourhoods.
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Re: 15 minute cities

Post by Herainestold » Sun Feb 12, 2023 3:56 pm

The traffic filter proposal is pretty mild. It really needs to be more robust if it is going to make any difference.
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Re: 15 minute cities

Post by Sciolus » Sun Feb 12, 2023 4:26 pm

Millennie Al wrote:
Sun Feb 12, 2023 3:29 am
Secondly, looking at that plan (https://www.oxford.gov.uk/info/20067/pl ... _plan_2040 ) it does not seem to have anything that does in fact ensure the services are suitably distributed. The plan does not seem to be finalised, but to the extent that there are provisions with regard to facilities, the most any of the options seem to provide is ensuring planning permission is available for suitable developments. That is permitting but not ensuring things. The only way that results in the proper distribution of facilities is by the new restrictions causing a demand for more local facilities which in turn causes development to meet that demand.
Have you really only just learned that local authorities don't run shops, post offices, pubs, GP surgeries or even schools themselves?

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Re: 15 minute cities

Post by Millennie Al » Tue Feb 14, 2023 12:01 am

Sciolus wrote:
Sun Feb 12, 2023 4:26 pm
Millennie Al wrote:
Sun Feb 12, 2023 3:29 am
Secondly, looking at that plan (https://www.oxford.gov.uk/info/20067/pl ... _plan_2040 ) it does not seem to have anything that does in fact ensure the services are suitably distributed. The plan does not seem to be finalised, but to the extent that there are provisions with regard to facilities, the most any of the options seem to provide is ensuring planning permission is available for suitable developments. That is permitting but not ensuring things. The only way that results in the proper distribution of facilities is by the new restrictions causing a demand for more local facilities which in turn causes development to meet that demand.
Have you really only just learned that local authorities don't run shops, post offices, pubs, GP surgeries or even schools themselves?
No. That has been what I thought was the case for a long time. But how then does the City Council intend to "ensure that areas of the city such as ... have all the essential services"?

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Re: 15 minute cities

Post by Millennie Al » Tue Feb 14, 2023 12:01 am

Herainestold wrote:
Sun Feb 12, 2023 3:56 pm
The traffic filter proposal is pretty mild. It really needs to be more robust if it is going to make any difference.
What would you suggest?

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Re: 15 minute cities

Post by JQH » Tue Feb 14, 2023 9:02 am

FlammableFlower wrote:
Fri Feb 10, 2023 2:18 pm

**and a brilliantly bonkers hardware store - it seems to have everything, but as it's so full you can barely walk around inside it and no apparent system or signage as to where things are, you just ask and they go and find it for you.
Does it stock fork 'andles?
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Re: 15 minute cities

Post by FlammableFlower » Tue Feb 14, 2023 10:45 am

JQH wrote:
Tue Feb 14, 2023 9:02 am
FlammableFlower wrote:
Fri Feb 10, 2023 2:18 pm

**and a brilliantly bonkers hardware store - it seems to have everything, but as it's so full you can barely walk around inside it and no apparent system or signage as to where things are, you just ask and they go and find it for you.
Does it stock fork 'andles?
Arf! They do (both kinds...)!

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Re: 15 minute cities

Post by Martin_B » Wed Feb 15, 2023 4:57 am

FlammableFlower wrote:
Tue Feb 14, 2023 10:45 am
JQH wrote:
Tue Feb 14, 2023 9:02 am
FlammableFlower wrote:
Fri Feb 10, 2023 2:18 pm

**and a brilliantly bonkers hardware store - it seems to have everything, but as it's so full you can barely walk around inside it and no apparent system or signage as to where things are, you just ask and they go and find it for you.
Does it stock fork 'andles?
Arf! They do (both kinds...)!
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Re: 15 minute cities

Post by JQH » Mon Feb 20, 2023 4:46 pm

To get back on topic I see there was a protest against LTNs in Oxford over the W/E. Some sensible criticism (eg people who genuinely need to drive between zones have to go out to the ring road and back) but there was also Piers Corbyn pushing his bonkers conspiracy theories.
And remember that if you botch the exit, the carnival of reaction may be coming to a town near you.

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Re: 15 minute cities

Post by EACLucifer » Mon Feb 20, 2023 5:44 pm

JQH wrote:
Mon Feb 20, 2023 4:46 pm
To get back on topic I see there was a protest against LTNs in Oxford over the W/E. Some sensible criticism (eg people who genuinely need to drive between zones have to go out to the ring road and back) but there was also Piers Corbyn pushing his bonkers conspiracy theories.
There's also a neat example of why blue badge exemptions are far from sufficient to mitigate harm for disabled people - who do you think a mobile hairdresser's clients are generally going to be?

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Re: 15 minute cities

Post by Grumble » Mon Feb 20, 2023 6:42 pm

EACLucifer wrote:
Mon Feb 20, 2023 5:44 pm
JQH wrote:
Mon Feb 20, 2023 4:46 pm
To get back on topic I see there was a protest against LTNs in Oxford over the W/E. Some sensible criticism (eg people who genuinely need to drive between zones have to go out to the ring road and back) but there was also Piers Corbyn pushing his bonkers conspiracy theories.
There's also a neat example of why blue badge exemptions are far from sufficient to mitigate harm for disabled people - who do you think a mobile hairdresser's clients are generally going to be?
There are lots of cases where harm could be caused by charging people. My mum volunteers to provide transport in her car for sick people who struggle to get to hospital. If she had to pay (more than fuel money) to do this she would probably stop.
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Re: 15 minute cities

Post by Beaker » Mon Feb 20, 2023 9:49 pm

Most of the post war housing round us (The North) is on a LTN layout, as is, I guess, a proportion of those of the conspiracy nuts protesting. We tend not to build housing developments alongside through routes any more. So I don’t buy this ‘change will be prohibitively expensive for the disabled’ argument - people of all mobilities have been choosing to live on culs-de-sac* instead of busy roads for 70 years.

Similarly, I’m sure the protesters against 15 minute cities lamented the loss of their local butcher/pub/greengrocer when the out of town Asda wiped them out.

The grievances seem to largely align along the axis of “why should I suffer the most minor inconvenience immediately, for the greater good of everyone (myself included)?” See also mask wearing, choosing vaccines, insulating your roof…

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Re: 15 minute cities

Post by EACLucifer » Mon Feb 20, 2023 9:55 pm

Beaker wrote:
Mon Feb 20, 2023 9:49 pm
Most of the post war housing round us (The North) is on a LTN layout, as is, I guess, a proportion of those of the conspiracy nuts protesting. We tend not to build housing developments alongside through routes any more. So I don’t buy this ‘change will be prohibitively expensive for the disabled’ argument - people of all mobilities have been choosing to live on culs-de-sac* instead of busy roads for 70 years.

Similarly, I’m sure the protesters against 15 minute cities lamented the loss of their local butcher/pub/greengrocer when the out of town Asda wiped them out.

The grievances seem to largely align along the axis of “why should I suffer the most minor inconvenience immediately, for the greater good of everyone (myself included)?” See also mask wearing, choosing vaccines, insulating your roof…
Have you tried navigating an urban environment in a wheelchair? Any idea how far you'd be able to push one? What a typical electric's range is?

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Re: 15 minute cities

Post by Beaker » Mon Feb 20, 2023 9:56 pm

EACLucifer wrote:
Mon Feb 20, 2023 5:44 pm

There's also a neat example of why blue badge exemptions are far from sufficient to mitigate harm for disabled people - who do you think a mobile hairdresser's clients are generally going to be?
If only there was some way a mobile hairdresser in Oxford could get through a modal filter.

https://nextdoor.co.uk/pages/elaine-mo ... n-england/

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Re: 15 minute cities

Post by EACLucifer » Mon Feb 20, 2023 10:03 pm

Beaker wrote:
Mon Feb 20, 2023 9:56 pm
EACLucifer wrote:
Mon Feb 20, 2023 5:44 pm

There's also a neat example of why blue badge exemptions are far from sufficient to mitigate harm for disabled people - who do you think a mobile hairdresser's clients are generally going to be?
If only there was some way a mobile hairdresser in Oxford could get through a modal filter. [/url]
Ah, so we're restricting travelling employment to able-bodied people now, then? The ignorance and callous able-normativity or downright ableism of "butyoucouldjustgetabikeand..." It's a great example actually of the point I was making, though - that things arrogant, thoughtless youcouldjusts think of as neutral disproportionately hit disabled people.

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Re: 15 minute cities

Post by Beaker » Mon Feb 20, 2023 10:12 pm

Are you restricting active transport only to entirely able bodied? Plenty of e-bike/trike solutions that paracyclists I know ride. And yes I am aware of some of the crap barriers to disabled access, and we should address those. Doesn’t means we have to give over our street space entirely to cars.

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Re: 15 minute cities

Post by EACLucifer » Mon Feb 20, 2023 10:26 pm

Beaker wrote:
Mon Feb 20, 2023 10:12 pm
Are you restricting active transport only to entirely able bodied?
Of course I'm not, that is something you appear to have just made up. Of course restricting non-bike transport doesn't obstruct all disabled people, just a lot of them. Very few things actually stop all disabled people doing things, and they don't have to to be ablenormative/institutionally ableist. Your response is exactly the kind of thoughtless bollocks that makes campaigning for and discussing disabled access mentally exhausting.

Plenty of e-bike/trike solutions that paracyclists I know ride.[/quote]

Firstly, planewithholesin.jpg

Secondly, a lot of the methods used for trying to block cars and motorbikes from using roads also hit adapted bikes and especially trikes (trikes like pedal trikes and electric conversions thereof, I mean, not stuff like my Intruder).
And yes I am aware of some of the crap barriers to disabled access, and we should address those.
Perhaps you should try pushing for that first, rather than blocking off streets to the sorts of transport we can use and expecting us to take it on trust that you might get round to it one day?
Doesn’t means we have to give over our street space entirely to cars.
Nor have I ever claimed it does - that comes with its own problems - but I might think about beginning to trust the kind of people campaigning on this if they ever, ever showed the faintest sign of thinking about our existence. Cutting out the "butyoucouldjust" reflex and listening would be a good start.

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Re: 15 minute cities

Post by lpm » Mon Feb 20, 2023 10:36 pm

So you're saying rights can on occasion conflict, and so we should listen, think about others existence and come up with reasoned compromises?
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Re: 15 minute cities

Post by EACLucifer » Mon Feb 20, 2023 10:43 pm

lpm wrote:
Mon Feb 20, 2023 10:36 pm
So you're saying rights can on occasion conflict, and so we should listen, think about others existence and come up with reasoned compromises?
Always - a good example would be wheelchairs sometimes struggling with the surface textures blind people need to know where pedestrian crossings are - my initial post was to highlight how a blue badge exemption wouldn't cover all the ways it would affect disabled people, and it wouldn't. However, while rights can conflict, what we're used to as disabled people is our rights conflicting with other peoples convenience and coming second, and I'm not the only one who's f.cking sick of it, and "you/they could just get a bike" is never an appropriate response to someone highlighting disability issues. It's great for people who can - I miss cycling a hell of a lot - but if your solution to the problem you plan to cause is bicycling, then you're going to harm a lot of people.

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Re: 15 minute cities

Post by EACLucifer » Thu Feb 23, 2023 5:31 pm

Spoke to a (also disabled) friend about this the other day. We agreed a lot of the protestors were cranks, but also deeply concerned. Friend mentioned someone on their own street who'd had to move out of her home earlier than otherwise because the f.cking parking rules there made it almost impossible to get carers - nothing wrong with parking rules as such but need to be implemented in ways that don't make it overwhelmingly difficult for disabled/elderly people to get carers. Same applies to road closures, traffic restrictions - could mean people who moved into their houses on the understanding that they could have such workers drive to their houses will no longer be able to do so.

And before the insufferable bike c.nts chime in with idiotic claims the carers could use bicycles, it is not within the power of an elderly or disabled person to choose how their carers arrive, and they may find that many care firms just stop covering their areas. In addition, many people depend on care from friends and relatives, including things like delivering shopping, and people doing that sort of peer care for disabled people are more likely to be disabled than you think (not that the "butyoucouldjusts" ever stop to think).

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