Democratic Candidate 2020
Democratic Candidate 2020
And now Cory Booker is out. That's all my favourites gone.
Five realistic candidates left.
Joe Biden is far, far to old.
Bernie Sanders has multiple skeleton closets and might not win
Elizabeth Warren is amazing
Pete Buttigieg will fizzle once it moves to non-white states
Amy Klobuchar is OK but I can't stand people who bully their employees
The two billionaires are dominating the TV commercials, but f.ck 'em.
I'm sad about Kamala Harris, Julian Castro, Cory Booker, Kirsten Gillibrand and Beto O'Rourke.
Iowa on 3 Feb, just three weeks away.
Five realistic candidates left.
Joe Biden is far, far to old.
Bernie Sanders has multiple skeleton closets and might not win
Elizabeth Warren is amazing
Pete Buttigieg will fizzle once it moves to non-white states
Amy Klobuchar is OK but I can't stand people who bully their employees
The two billionaires are dominating the TV commercials, but f.ck 'em.
I'm sad about Kamala Harris, Julian Castro, Cory Booker, Kirsten Gillibrand and Beto O'Rourke.
Iowa on 3 Feb, just three weeks away.
Re: Democratic Candidate 2020
That's a shame but not surprising as he never seemed to have a chance. I've listened to some interviews with him and he came across really well.
Bernie Sanders reminds me too much of Corbyn - fanatically loyal fanbase, but doesn't have much appeal outside that. Also the decades of being the "outsider" without much to show for it. The fact Joe Biden is in such strong contention really baffles me. He's like your slightly doddery, slightly offensive granddad. How he polls best with African Americans is beyond me. Pete Buttigieg could be a great candidate but he just seems too polished and rehearsed, and lacks any real experience. I know that Trump did too but that' s no reason to put another untested candidate up against him. I don't know that much about Amy Klobuchar apart from the bullying accusations. Elizabeth Warren is my favourite candidate - she's got the experience, she's got the gravitas and she is all about anti-corruption, a perfect contrast to Trump. I also think she's the best one to go up against him in the debates. The thought of Biden or Buttigieg going up against Trump makes me cringe. And I don't know what Sanders can say that will win over new supporters.
It is frustrating how the candidates to drop out are the ones from BAME backgrounds. I just hope that whoever gets the nomination actually wins. The thought of 4 more years of Trump on top of everything else is just too much to deal with.
Bernie Sanders reminds me too much of Corbyn - fanatically loyal fanbase, but doesn't have much appeal outside that. Also the decades of being the "outsider" without much to show for it. The fact Joe Biden is in such strong contention really baffles me. He's like your slightly doddery, slightly offensive granddad. How he polls best with African Americans is beyond me. Pete Buttigieg could be a great candidate but he just seems too polished and rehearsed, and lacks any real experience. I know that Trump did too but that' s no reason to put another untested candidate up against him. I don't know that much about Amy Klobuchar apart from the bullying accusations. Elizabeth Warren is my favourite candidate - she's got the experience, she's got the gravitas and she is all about anti-corruption, a perfect contrast to Trump. I also think she's the best one to go up against him in the debates. The thought of Biden or Buttigieg going up against Trump makes me cringe. And I don't know what Sanders can say that will win over new supporters.
It is frustrating how the candidates to drop out are the ones from BAME backgrounds. I just hope that whoever gets the nomination actually wins. The thought of 4 more years of Trump on top of everything else is just too much to deal with.
it's okay to say "I don't know"
Re: Democratic Candidate 2020
I personally won't be voting for a old white man in the primary, as a matter of policy, and also because all the old white man options are pretty awful.
And then I'll donate to whoever wins the nomination, not that it makes a lot of difference in Massachusetts.
That said, I'm mildly worried about what Massachusetts will do if Warren wins and her Senate seat opens up, particularly with a Republican governor who may be able to appoint a temporary replacement (although Baker is pretty RINO in modern terms). Although I think Joe Kennedy made a fairly good showing as a potential replacement in his quixotic attempt to primary Markey, and could will win the nomination and race for the Senate seat.
And then I'll donate to whoever wins the nomination, not that it makes a lot of difference in Massachusetts.
That said, I'm mildly worried about what Massachusetts will do if Warren wins and her Senate seat opens up, particularly with a Republican governor who may be able to appoint a temporary replacement (although Baker is pretty RINO in modern terms). Although I think Joe Kennedy made a fairly good showing as a potential replacement in his quixotic attempt to primary Markey, and could will win the nomination and race for the Senate seat.
Re: Democratic Candidate 2020
However, will the Democratic party put up a female candidate twice in a row, and will the American electorate vote for a female? There were a lot of misogynistic comments regarding Hilary last time round, and many people claiming that they wouldn't vote for a woman; although there may be a considerable cross-over with people who may never vote Democrat anyway.
Warren may be a good debater against Trump, but Trump has a) the fake-native American claim, which he'll milk all year, and b) he'll start flinging mud and, as we've seen with the child-sex ring in the basement of a basement-less pizza shop, fling enough and some will stick. Warren's problem with combating the second issue, is that as soon as she starts to answer back, Trump then labels her as 'strident', which hits a female candidate harder than a male one (it *shouldn't*, but it does).
On the other hand, Biden and Sanders are old*, and Sanders isn't even a Democrat (officially he's an independent senator).
[* Although Biden, at 77, is 4 years older than Trump, he seems in better health. Sanders is 78 and had a heart attack. Warren is 70, but doesn't come across as anything like that age.]
"My interest is in the future, because I'm going to spend the rest of my life there"
- Bird on a Fire
- Princess POW
- Posts: 10142
- Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:05 pm
- Location: Portugal
Re: Democratic Candidate 2020
What worries me about Warren is that she's a former republican and self-professed lover of capitalism. At a time when corporate power needs dramatic restriction and the economy needs dramatic restructuring, both within the USA and globally, I worry that Warren would take a kind of Obama-lite super-conciliatory approach, with a bunch of interesting-sounding but limited "reforms" that are nothing of the sort, as they leave the underlying system intact and will thus be easily circumvented, watered down or repealed over time.
Sanders has consistently been on the right side of just about every social issue in the states throughout his career, which is reassuring. Americans would undoubtedly benefit from European-style healthcare and a write-off of unsustainable debt-serfdom and the world would benefit from a less aggressive, possibly even genuinely constructive, foreign policy.
Sanders has consistently been on the right side of just about every social issue in the states throughout his career, which is reassuring. Americans would undoubtedly benefit from European-style healthcare and a write-off of unsustainable debt-serfdom and the world would benefit from a less aggressive, possibly even genuinely constructive, foreign policy.
We have the right to a clean, healthy, sustainable environment.
Re: Democratic Candidate 2020
I don't think Warren is a lover of capitalism in the way you think. She's been behind some of the biggest recent pushes to rein in laissez-faire capitalism, and has spent most of an academic legal career working to defend against the excesses of capitalism.Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑Tue Jan 14, 2020 12:09 pmWhat worries me about Warren is that she's a former republican and self-professed lover of capitalism. At a time when corporate power needs dramatic restriction and the economy needs dramatic restructuring, both within the USA and globally, I worry that Warren would take a kind of Obama-lite super-conciliatory approach, with a bunch of interesting-sounding but limited "reforms" that are nothing of the sort, as they leave the underlying system intact and will thus be easily circumvented, watered down or repealed over time.
Sanders has consistently been on the right side of just about every social issue in the states throughout his career, which is reassuring. Americans would undoubtedly benefit from European-style healthcare and a write-off of unsustainable debt-serfdom and the world would benefit from a less aggressive, possibly even genuinely constructive, foreign policy.
Her declaration was a defence against accusations that she's a communist. And she's very much not an Obama-lite, as she's well left of Obama. And you can just look at her website for details.
I suspect she'd have to compromise less than Sanders to get legislation done, because she can convince former colleagues in the Senate, rather than having to bully then as an outsider who has spent a career attacking them.
Re: Democratic Candidate 2020
I think you've led astray, somehow, BoaF. That's not the Warren I see.
Sanders is Corbyn: left wing, but exactly the wrong sort of left wing. Awful man, and his supporters are worse.
Sanders is Corbyn: left wing, but exactly the wrong sort of left wing. Awful man, and his supporters are worse.
- Bird on a Fire
- Princess POW
- Posts: 10142
- Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:05 pm
- Location: Portugal
Re: Democratic Candidate 2020
Fair enough. My evening's work will be to reassess both candidates.
Is it worth reassessing Biden too?![Wink ;)](./images/smilies/icon_e_wink.gif)
Is it worth reassessing Biden too?
![Wink ;)](./images/smilies/icon_e_wink.gif)
We have the right to a clean, healthy, sustainable environment.
-
- Snowbonk
- Posts: 551
- Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2019 12:42 pm
Re: Democratic Candidate 2020
Counterpoint: Bernie Sanders is literally the only decent candidate in the field, as evidenced by the fact that the only decent Democratic congresspeople have backed him.
Re: Democratic Candidate 2020
None of that is true.secret squirrel wrote: ↑Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:18 pmCounterpoint: Bernie Sanders is literally the only decent candidate in the field, as evidenced by the fact that the only decent Democratic congresspeople have backed him.
-
- Snowbonk
- Posts: 551
- Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2019 12:42 pm
Re: Democratic Candidate 2020
Sorry, from reading I assumed this thread was for making dogmatic unevidenced assertions.dyqik wrote: ↑Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:20 pmNone of that is true.secret squirrel wrote: ↑Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:18 pmCounterpoint: Bernie Sanders is literally the only decent candidate in the field, as evidenced by the fact that the only decent Democratic congresspeople have backed him.
Re: Democratic Candidate 2020
Well, yes, but I replied to your dogmatic absolutist assertion with the same.secret squirrel wrote: ↑Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:33 pmSorry, from reading I assumed this thread was for making dogmatic unevidenced assertions.dyqik wrote: ↑Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:20 pmNone of that is true.secret squirrel wrote: ↑Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:18 pmCounterpoint: Bernie Sanders is literally the only decent candidate in the field, as evidenced by the fact that the only decent Democratic congresspeople have backed him.
You should maybe at least try to base your opinions on what the candidates and Congressional representatives actually do and say if you want a nuanced engagement. Even if they are subjective opinions.
I don't believe that you are familiar with positions and records of all the individual Congressional representatives that have not endorsed Sanders.
-
- Snowbonk
- Posts: 551
- Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2019 12:42 pm
Re: Democratic Candidate 2020
For people who like more words:
Pro Bernie
Contra Warren
ETA: As far as I'm concerned these are the only candidates that matter.
Pro Bernie
Contra Warren
ETA: As far as I'm concerned these are the only candidates that matter.
Re: Democratic Candidate 2020
The second fails as soon as it talks about a revolution and overthrowing the DNC leadership. Because that's a recipe for a Corbyn style failure and a completely neutered campaign.secret squirrel wrote: ↑Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:43 pmFor people who like more words:
Pro Bernie
Contra Warren
ETA: As far as I'm concerned these are the only candidates that matter.
DNC leadership is who will implement the president's program. Overthrowing them means a Corbyn style disaster, losing the presidential election in 48 states, and losing the House and Senate for a decade. If you do that, you will likely lose in Massachusetts, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, New Hampshire, and Virgina. Remember that the President is not leader of the legislature, or the party, as they are in the UK.
It also means that you will have zero institutions on your side. That means complete resistance to your program throughout all arms of government.
Re: Democratic Candidate 2020
Women are younger than men of the same age, if you know what I mean, by about 2 years of life remaining.Martin_B wrote: ↑Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:06 amOn the other hand, Biden and Sanders are old*, and Sanders isn't even a Democrat (officially he's an independent senator).
[* Although Biden, at 77, is 4 years older than Trump, he seems in better health. Sanders is 78 and had a heart attack. Warren is 70, but doesn't come across as anything like that age.]
Age on inauguration day / Expected years life remaining per US actuarial tables
Sanders 79 / 8.9 years
Biden 78 / 9.4 years
Warren 71 / 15.8 years
Bernie Sanders has put out a laughable doctors letter on his health - well into the Trump doctor's letter territory. The chances of him dying in office are ridiculously high.
Joe Biden seems pretty fit, definitely good for his age. Not smoking or drinking makes a difference. But running for reelection for a second term aged 82-86? Can't be done.
Warren also seems healthy. She just has a routine thyroid thing, hypothyroidism or hyperthyroidism or hydrothyroidism, never can remember which is which, and takes the standard medication to balance up. A second term at 75-79 is not too absurd - a couple of years older than Reagan was.
-
- Fuzzable
- Posts: 286
- Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2019 12:27 pm
Re: Democratic Candidate 2020
So. Hilary Clinton can't stand?
Re: Democratic Candidate 2020
Why do you say that? She could if she wanted to.
ETA: It is rare for a losing presidential candidate to be renominated in a subsequent year. I believe the last time was Nixon, who lost to JFK in 1960, didn't run in 1964, but then ran, got the nomination, and won in 1968.
ETA: It is rare for a losing presidential candidate to be renominated in a subsequent year. I believe the last time was Nixon, who lost to JFK in 1960, didn't run in 1964, but then ran, got the nomination, and won in 1968.
Re: Democratic Candidate 2020
Although we are past the filing deadlines in some states. Something that's pretty important for the Trump Impeachment thread as well. In particular, it's too late for anyone to file to primary Mitch McConnell in Kentucky, John Cornyn in Texas, Cindy Hyde-Smith, Tom Cotton, or Thom Tillis.bolo wrote: ↑Tue Jan 14, 2020 6:21 pmWhy do you say that? She could if she wanted to.
ETA: It is rare for a losing presidential candidate to be renominated in a subsequent year. I believe the last time was Nixon, who lost to JFK in 1960, didn't run in 1964, but then ran, got the nomination, and won in 1968.
Re: Democratic Candidate 2020
I was in California at a university spinoff recently and over lunch was chatting with some of the engineers, who were all pretty anti Trump, and believed in both evolution and global warming.Fishnut wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:48 pmThat's a shame but not surprising as he never seemed to have a chance. I've listened to some interviews with him and he came across really well.
Bernie Sanders reminds me too much of Corbyn - fanatically loyal fanbase, but doesn't have much appeal outside that. Also the decades of being the "outsider" without much to show for it. The fact Joe Biden is in such strong contention really baffles me. He's like your slightly doddery, slightly offensive granddad. How he polls best with African Americans is beyond me. Pete Buttigieg could be a great candidate but he just seems too polished and rehearsed, and lacks any real experience. I know that Trump did too but that' s no reason to put another untested candidate up against him. I don't know that much about Amy Klobuchar apart from the bullying accusations. Elizabeth Warren is my favourite candidate - she's got the experience, she's got the gravitas and she is all about anti-corruption, a perfect contrast to Trump. I also think she's the best one to go up against him in the debates. The thought of Biden or Buttigieg going up against Trump makes me cringe. And I don't know what Sanders can say that will win over new supporters.
It is frustrating how the candidates to drop out are the ones from BAME backgrounds. I just hope that whoever gets the nomination actually wins. The thought of 4 more years of Trump on top of everything else is just too much to deal with.
I said pretty similar to you about Saunders, Biden, and Warren, and one of the guys who'd come from a conservative part of Maryland said that he thought Elizabeth Warren had been offensive about people's faith.
She was asked what she'd say to a person who said that their faith meant they believed that marriage was between one man and one woman.
Her reply was, "I'm going to assume it's a man, then I'd say, 'just marry one woman'"
One of the native (and quite stereotypical) Californians thought it was a good response - which I tend to agree with.
I doubt it would lose her any votes, but I guess it might rile some people enough to vote against her, but I'd imagine they'd be voting anyway. I'd could easily think it might work to her favour.
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation
Re: Democratic Candidate 2020
Good point. Details here:dyqik wrote: ↑Tue Jan 14, 2020 6:42 pmAlthough we are past the filing deadlines in some states. Something that's pretty important for the Trump Impeachment thread as well. In particular, it's too late for anyone to file to primary Mitch McConnell in Kentucky, John Cornyn in Texas, Cindy Hyde-Smith, Tom Cotton, or Thom Tillis.bolo wrote: ↑Tue Jan 14, 2020 6:21 pmWhy do you say that? She could if she wanted to.
ETA: It is rare for a losing presidential candidate to be renominated in a subsequent year. I believe the last time was Nixon, who lost to JFK in 1960, didn't run in 1964, but then ran, got the nomination, and won in 1968.
https://ballotpedia.org/Important_dates ... ntial_race
https://ballotpedia.org/State_and_feder ... s_for_2020
She could still get on general election ballots as an independent, though. Plenty of time for that. For what it's worth (which isn't much).
Re: Democratic Candidate 2020
Support for gay marriage is actually only slightly higher among women than among men. And there are still 25% of Democrats who don't support it. Data here:
https://www.pewforum.org/fact-sheet/cha ... -marriage/
Re: Democratic Candidate 2020
Although if that's "Registered Democrats", a fair chunk of them may well be people who have voted Republican (if at all) for the past decade or more and who exclusively watch Fox News.bolo wrote: ↑Tue Jan 14, 2020 7:25 pmSupport for gay marriage is actually only slightly higher among women than among men. And there are still 25% of Democrats who don't support it. Data here:
https://www.pewforum.org/fact-sheet/cha ... -marriage/
However, it seems to be self-ID'd Democrats instead, which is a different matter (you need to watch out for that in US polls).
Re: Democratic Candidate 2020
I'm not sure where secret squirrel is posting from, but from here in Australia we don't get to see that much of the nuance of American politics; we get (from a mainly right-wing press, albeit one who isn't particularly pro-Trump) the headlines if one of the Democratic crowd has done something particularly good or awful, an occasional soundbite from McConnell, but mainly the rant of the day from his Orangeness.dyqik wrote: ↑Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:38 pmWell, yes, but I replied to your dogmatic absolutist assertion with the same.secret squirrel wrote: ↑Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:33 pmSorry, from reading I assumed this thread was for making dogmatic unevidenced assertions.
You should maybe at least try to base your opinions on what the candidates and Congressional representatives actually do and say if you want a nuanced engagement. Even if they are subjective opinions.
I don't believe that you are familiar with positions and records of all the individual Congressional representatives that have not endorsed Sanders.
[A bit off-topic, but I'm reading a Tim Moore book where he drove across America in a Ford Model T, to try and experience life in the middle-America which voted so overwhelmingly for Trump. That has some interesting thoughts on why small-town America has such disdain for anything remotely Washington-DC-esque that a billionaire New Yorker will gain their vote even if they don't like him and he only pretends to listen to them.]
"My interest is in the future, because I'm going to spend the rest of my life there"
Re: Democratic Candidate 2020
Which is why you wouldn't be stupid enough to make an absolute declaration about every single Democratic representative...Martin_B wrote: ↑Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:05 amI'm not sure where secret squirrel is posting from, but from here in Australia we don't get to see that much of the nuance of American politics; we get (from a mainly right-wing press, albeit one who isn't particularly pro-Trump) the headlines if one of the Democratic crowd has done something particularly good or awful, an occasional soundbite from McConnell, but mainly the rant of the day from his Orangeness.dyqik wrote: ↑Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:38 pmWell, yes, but I replied to your dogmatic absolutist assertion with the same.secret squirrel wrote: ↑Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:33 pm
Sorry, from reading I assumed this thread was for making dogmatic unevidenced assertions.
You should maybe at least try to base your opinions on what the candidates and Congressional representatives actually do and say if you want a nuanced engagement. Even if they are subjective opinions.
I don't believe that you are familiar with positions and records of all the individual Congressional representatives that have not endorsed Sanders.
I don't even know what my representative has been doing. But she was newly elected in 2018, so I doubt she's done much that fits secret squirrels narrative one way or another.
-
- Snowbonk
- Posts: 551
- Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2019 12:42 pm
Re: Democratic Candidate 2020
Name one good person of congress who doesn't back Bernie Sanders.