Hamas attack on Israel

[Woodchopper]

The BBC is continuing to have trouble naming things....

Anti-Israel mob storms Dagestan airport in Russia
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-67258332

The mob held signs indicating that they were were looking for Jews. Still not clear enough for the BBC apparently.

The Guardian managed some accuracy...

Mob storms Dagestan airport in search of Jewish passengers from Israel
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/ ... rom-israel

Yeah, this was a damn pogrom, and the only thing that stopped there being murders was they don't appear to have found any actual Jews. They did severely beat an Uzbek though as they apparently thought he was Jewish.

Yes, I agree.

[Woodchopper]

Certainly Israel has demanded that everyone leave the north of Gaza. The Israeli army might be able to clear Hamas out of the evacuated areas in the north with similar levels of destruction. But if Hamas remains embedded within the population in the south of Gaza then Hamas can claim a victory.

It has left open the question, "What next?" and "What about the rest?" ever since they demanded everyone to leave the north so they could scour it. One does worry that the open-air prison camp just got smaller and won't re-enlarge. But it seems at the moment there is nothing preventing people going back, and some have, because the conditions in the south are so awful. But that might change, and northern Gaza might be emptied. Then, what next?

Is the scouring of northern Gaza a demonstration project, that may stop there, or else may continue, to be used as a negotiation point? That makes little sense, as Hamas won't agree to anything, and there isn't an alternative interlocutor.

I don’t have an answer. I agree, none of it seems to make sense. But wars are often senseless.

[EACLucifer]

One of the more shocking images from the 7th of October was Hamas terrorists parading the body of Shani Louk through the streets of Gaza as bystanders cheered what they were doing.

Subsequently denialists tried to pretend that she was still alive. Today it was announced that her body was found.

[bob sterman]

The BBC is continuing to have trouble naming things....

Anti-Israel mob storms Dagestan airport in Russia
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-67258332

The mob held signs indicating that they were were looking for Jews. Still not clear enough for the BBC apparently.

The Guardian managed some accuracy...

Mob storms Dagestan airport in search of Jewish passengers from Israel
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/ ... rom-israel

Yeah, this was a damn pogrom, and the only thing that stopped there being murders was they don't appear to have found any actual Jews. They did severely beat an Uzbek though as they apparently thought he was Jewish.

BBC have just amended their headline to reflect the truth...

Dagestan: Mob storms Russian airport in search of Jews
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-67258332

[EACLucifer]

The BBC is continuing to have trouble naming things....

Anti-Israel mob storms Dagestan airport in Russia
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-67258332

The mob held signs indicating that they were were looking for Jews. Still not clear enough for the BBC apparently.

The Guardian managed some accuracy...

Mob storms Dagestan airport in search of Jewish passengers from Israel
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/ ... rom-israel

Yeah, this was a damn pogrom, and the only thing that stopped there being murders was they don't appear to have found any actual Jews. They did severely beat an Uzbek though as they apparently thought he was Jewish.

BBC have just amended their headline to reflect the truth...

Dagestan: Mob storms Russian airport in search of Jews
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-67258332

Apparently there weren't any Jews on the flight, just children who'd flown to Israel for medical treatment and their families.

[EACLucifer]

One of the more shocking images from the 7th of October was Hamas terrorists parading the body of Shani Louk through the streets of Gaza as bystanders cheered what they were doing.

Subsequently denialists tried to pretend that she was still alive. Today it was announced that her body was found.

That was what was reported at the time, but subsequently it's been clarified. They found her skull. I think you can work out what happened there.

[EACLucifer]

Something that gets me specifically about the Dagestan Pogrom; Dagestan is one of the regions where the Russian Federation does not really consider the inhabitants to be people. To protect Muscovites and other white, Orthodox Christian Russians, regions like Buryatia, Tuva and Dagestan have suffered grossly disproportionate deaths in Ukraine.

They didn't riot against that, just the idea that there might be Jews on a flight. It speaks to their antisemitism, yes, but I think there's more to it than that - I think that they knew they'd get away with a pogrom against Jews on a plane and know they won't get away with challenging the war or challenging Putin.

[dyqik]

Something that gets me specifically about the Dagestan Pogrom; Dagestan is one of the regions where the Russian Federation does not really consider the inhabitants to be people. To protect Muscovites and other white, Orthodox Christian Russians, regions like Buryatia, Tuva and Dagestan have suffered grossly disproportionate deaths in Ukraine.

They didn't riot against that, just the idea that there might be Jews on a flight. It speaks to their antisemitism, yes, but I think there's more to it than that - I think that they knew they'd get away with a pogrom against Jews on a plane and know they won't get away with challenging the war or challenging Putin.

I wouldn't be surprised if Putin et al had been pushing antisemitism there in order to distract from Putin's government's actions, either.

[EACLucifer]

Something that gets me specifically about the Dagestan Pogrom; Dagestan is one of the regions where the Russian Federation does not really consider the inhabitants to be people. To protect Muscovites and other white, Orthodox Christian Russians, regions like Buryatia, Tuva and Dagestan have suffered grossly disproportionate deaths in Ukraine.

They didn't riot against that, just the idea that there might be Jews on a flight. It speaks to their antisemitism, yes, but I think there's more to it than that - I think that they knew they'd get away with a pogrom against Jews on a plane and know they won't get away with challenging the war or challenging Putin.

I wouldn't be surprised if Putin et al had been pushing antisemitism there in order to distract from Putin's government's actions, either.

There's been a lot of antisemitism in Russian media over the last year and a half, and that's on top of a tradition of antisemitism that survived rather more intact than equivalent traditions in western Europe. Pogroms traditionally were state tolerated or state incited, with the state using them to distract from domestic issues.

[EACLucifer]

I'm seeing reports from usually credible - albeit not yet from cast-iron certain - sources that Israeli forces have successfully rescued at least one hostage.

ETA: This is solid, and visually verified. She's back with her family by now.

[Woodchopper]

Due to the worsening water shortage in the Gaza Strip, an internal U.S. State Department document recommends the Biden administration pressure Israel to take immediate steps which the report’s writers believe will alleviate Palestinian residents’ suffering and potentially save tens of thousands of lives.
The authors assess that 52,000 pregnant women and more than 30,000 babies under six months of age are currently drinking brackish or contaminated water due to the absence of drinking water or the electricity needed to power the water infrastructure. This exposes them to health complications that could be life-threatening.

Sources tell Haaretz that as of Friday morning, the American government has not yet accepted or rejected the recommendations. The document suggests the United States pressure Israel to renew water supply at full capacity to two additional pipes, in addition to the single pipe already running for the last two weeks at the American administration’s demand.

It also recommends to pressure Israel to enable the transportation of the fuels needed to operate these two water lines and to include fuel supply for the entire water system, as part of the emergency convoys entering the Strip from Egypt.

[…]

The document, composed last week, relies on findings from independent entities unrelated to Hamas such as the World Health Organization and other United Nations organizations. According to the UN Office of Coordination for Humanitarian Action (OCHA), as of Friday morning the number of people displaced from their homes exceeded 1.4 million out of the 2.2 million residents of the Gaza Strip, which covers an area of 360 square kilometers.

Nearly half the displaced – about 640,000 – are staying at some 150 UNRWA shelters, another 122,000 in hospitals, churches and other public buildings, and nearly 80,000 are staying at non-UNRWA schools. The average number of displaced persons in each single shelter is nearly three times the capacity of each, according to OCHA’s daily report published Friday morning.

The State Department’s recommendation document states that displaced persons staying in shelters have access to about half a liter of clean water per person per day. According to the United Nations and Oxfam, all Gaza residents have daily access to an estimated average of three liters of clean water per capita for all domestic needs, compared with the World Health Organization’s emergency minimum recommended amount of 15 liters.

[…]

In the absence of clean water, most Gazans are forced to make use of brackish water often contaminated with nitrates as a result of waste and fertilizer seepage. As mentioned in the document, the diseases such water carry are especially harmful to pregnant women and babies.

Electricity and fuel are necessary for pumping water and distributing it through pipes into homes. They are also necessary for purifying water at Gaza’s dozens of groundwater treatment stations and for operating seawater desalination plants.

The State Department document recommends restarting a power line from Egypt that until 2018 had provided electricity to the southern part of the Strip. The document also states that it is also necessary to include fuels in emergency aid convoys arriving from Egypt, in order to make the water infrastructure in the Gaza Strip operational. This fuel will also be used by UNRWA vehicles, the recommendations said.

[…]

The document says that as of mid-week, there were still canned foods and certain agricultural produce to be had in the Gaza Strip. But according to the document’s authors’ contacts on the ground, food security may deteriorate at any point. Starvation may develop first in the Strip’s rural areas, the document’s authors estimate.

Oxfam had already warned of starvation in its October 25 announcement, which stated that one cannot consume such available food products like rice and lentils because there is no clean water or fuel to prepare them.

The bombings destroyed bakeries and supermarkets. Those bakeries not damaged or destroyed cannot meet the demand for bread due to a shortage of flour and fuel. The warehouses in Gaza City have a large supply of flour, oil and sugar – but are difficult to reach due to the ruined roads, fuel shortages and bombing.

It is likely that the heavy bombings on Friday and Saturday destroyed much of the food supply. Due to the halt in electricity supply, food in warehouse refrigerators as well as in domestic ones spoiled, and irrigation in fields and greenhouses was cut off. According to Oxfam, some 15,000 farmers lost their crops, and an equal number of farmers could not feed their animals, leading to the decimation of their livestock.

"We don’t comment on leaked internal communications," said a U.S. State Department official.

https://www.haaretz.com/us-news/2023-10 ... faf09e0000

[EACLucifer]

While we are talking about bad reporting...



Re: Fuel. There's extensive fuel in Gaza, in the hands of Hamas. Earlier, they took fuel from UNRWA facilities, though UNRWA deleted the announcement a few hours after making it. Hamas has shown time and time again they do not care if ordinary Gazans suffer. I agree with the importance of getting clean water to people, but delivering fuel will only achieve that if it can be ensured that fuel goes to desalinisation and not to Hamas's tunnel network, which relies on ICE power for ventilation and lighting. Delivering more water directly would be good if it can be achieved.

Additionally, one reason aid is moving slowly is because the trucks need to be checked for weapons. There aren't facilities to do this quickly at Rafah, which has been kept mostly closed since the Hamas takeover, there are facilities for this at Kerem Shalom, but it isn't safe to operate Kerem Shalom due to repeated rocket attacks on it in the last few weeks.

[EACLucifer]

Hamas has shown time and time again they do not care if ordinary Gazans suffer.

Further to this point...

The flipside of this, of course, is that it is not only immoral to try and indefinitely hold the civilian population there hostage, it's never going to be effective.

[bob sterman]

On Tonight with Andrew Marr (30th October) Corbyn admirably gives a full and unequivocal condemnation of the Hamas attacks. He doesn't finish it with caveats.

But then Len McCluskey cannot resist chipping in and blaming the Jews.

https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/ ... tch-again/

At 54 minutes...

Let me pose something to you. You have in Mossad the most sophisticated security organisation in the world....are we really led to believe that they didn't know this was happening?...it poses all kinds of questions

Yes - antisemitic questions.

[EACLucifer]

On Tonight with Andrew Marr (30th October) Corbyn admirably gives a full and unequivocal condemnation of the Hamas attacks. He doesn't finish it with caveats.

But then Len McCluskey cannot resist chipping in and blaming the Jews.

https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/ ... tch-again/

At 54 minutes...

Let me pose something to you. You have in Mossad the most sophisticated security organisation in the world....are we really led to believe that they didn't know this was happening?...it poses all kinds of questions

Yes - antisemitic questions.

FFS it wasn't even Mossad's area of responsibility, it was Shin Bet's!

[EACLucifer]

I feel the fact that the Houthis have repeatedly launched missiles at Israel during this should be recognised. Some were shot down by a US destroyer that had just transited Suez southbound, one may have been shot down by Saudis, one hit an empty area in Egypt, and one - presumably a ballistic given what intercepted it - was just shot down by Israel's Arrow missile system.

[EACLucifer]

I feel the fact that the Houthis have repeatedly launched missiles at Israel during this should be recognised. Some were shot down by a US destroyer that had just transited Suez southbound, one may have been shot down by Saudis, one hit an empty area in Egypt, and one - presumably a ballistic given what intercepted it - was just shot down by Israel's Arrow missile system.

I missed the second half off when I posted this

The Houthis, for those not familiar with them, are directly backed by and more or less controlled by Iran's IRGC. The technology for these missiles and certain critical parts at minimum came from Iran, and it is possible these weren't locally assembled but just shipped straight from Iran, though local assembly is also possible. The missile show down by Arrow 2 was a Medium Range Ballistic Missile, a serious bit of kit that, if it got through, could do a hell of a lot of damage. This shows Iran's involvement, as do the multiple attacks from Syrian territory, and the attacks on US forces in Syria and Iraq over the last few weeks.

[bob sterman]

I missed the second half off when I posted this

The Houthis, for those not familiar with them, are directly backed by and more or less controlled by Iran's IRGC. The technology for these missiles and certain critical parts at minimum came from Iran, and it is possible these weren't locally assembled but just shipped straight from Iran, though local assembly is also possible. The missile show down by Arrow 2 was a Medium Range Ballistic Missile, a serious bit of kit that, if it got through, could do a hell of a lot of damage. This shows Iran's involvement, as do the multiple attacks from Syrian territory, and the attacks on US forces in Syria and Iraq over the last few weeks.

I suspect the US line on Iranian involvement will harden once the USS Eisenhower has transitted the Suez canal.

Just over a week ago, when it was already en route the US, announced the carrier was heading to the Arabian Sea - not Eastern Mediterranean.

[EACLucifer]

I missed the second half off when I posted this

The Houthis, for those not familiar with them, are directly backed by and more or less controlled by Iran's IRGC. The technology for these missiles and certain critical parts at minimum came from Iran, and it is possible these weren't locally assembled but just shipped straight from Iran, though local assembly is also possible. The missile show down by Arrow 2 was a Medium Range Ballistic Missile, a serious bit of kit that, if it got through, could do a hell of a lot of damage. This shows Iran's involvement, as do the multiple attacks from Syrian territory, and the attacks on US forces in Syria and Iraq over the last few weeks.

I suspect the US line on Iranian involvement will harden once the USS Eisenhower has transitted the Suez canal.

Just over a week ago, when it was already en route the US, announced the carrier was heading to the Arabian Sea - not Eastern Mediterranean.

She passed the Strait of Gibraltar three days ago. It's notable how quickly they got USS Gerald Ford into position too - satellite photos showed her leaving a truly remarkable wake, though of course it's easier to do that sort of thing if you don't have to worry about fuel consumption.

[bob sterman]

BBC determined to erase history.

Headline during a news bulletin on BBC Radio 5 during the night...

The Rafah crossing from Egypt into Gaza has opened for the first time since the latest conflict between Israel and Hamas flared up

Is that what happened on Oct 7th? A conflict just "flared up"???

[Woodchopper]

BBC determined to erase history.

Headline during a news bulletin on BBC Radio 5 during the night...

The Rafah crossing from Egypt into Gaza has opened for the first time since the latest conflict between Israel and Hamas flared up

Is that what happened on Oct 7th? A conflict just "flared up"???

Makes it seem like a natural disaster. Perhaps a volcanic eruption.

[Bewildered]

I am still finding the rest is politics really interesting and helpful on this.

I appreciate Warsi’s perspective: https://youtu.be/ipigziMMg1k?si=UiuoIDGg7T2mKBLc and her honesty in criticising Tories.

Tangent: I always found her quite good on Islamophobia, and it sounds like she regrets her social conservatism on gay marriage. It’s funny comparing her to Rory because somehow I find her more likeable because I also know I disagree with her on very serious issues that if I’m right and she’s wrong have destroyed lives. However I think she honestly believes otherwise. Whereas with Rory i just plain don’t understand why he is a Tory. He sounds incredibly earnest and thoughtful when he tries to explain it (as he does when he explains anything in the podcast) but it really just amounts to mumbling about having deep value in anachronistic ideas about nation and country that seem to me to be in fundamental conflict with his actual world views. On issues I can’t find anything that actually makes him a Tory and it seems I like everything else about him, but his inability to explain why he’s a Tory bothers me so much it almost spoils my entire impression. I can’t help but feel that he is simply not being honest about it because it just makes no sense, and he explains other things so clearly that it really stands out.

[Bewildered]

Something that gets me specifically about the Dagestan Pogrom; Dagestan is one of the regions where the Russian Federation does not really consider the inhabitants to be people. To protect Muscovites and other white, Orthodox Christian Russians, regions like Buryatia, Tuva and Dagestan have suffered grossly disproportionate deaths in Ukraine.

They didn't riot against that, just the idea that there might be Jews on a flight. It speaks to their antisemitism, yes, but I think there's more to it than that - I think that they knew they'd get away with a pogrom against Jews on a plane and know they won't get away with challenging the war or challenging Putin.

I wouldn't be surprised if Putin et al had been pushing antisemitism there in order to distract from Putin's government's actions, either.

There's been a lot of antisemitism in Russian media over the last year and a half, and that's on top of a tradition of antisemitism that survived rather more intact than equivalent traditions in western Europe. Pogroms traditionally were state tolerated or state incited, with the state using them to distract from domestic issues.

I know this is old but…
Im sure that’s correct and I’ve see nasty racist propaganda from Putin. But in this particular case from what I have read it seems it was whipped up by anti-Putin channel Morning Dagestan: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-67269477. Putin tried to use it as propaganda because Morning Dagestan has links to a defector to Ukraine. Ukraine and us deny that and most likely Putin’s claim is to deflect blame for the security failure, etc, but as far as I know it’s not really disputed that this was stirred up by a source that is anti-Putin, so seems like he is not to for this directly.

[bjn]

I am still finding the rest is politics really interesting and helpful on this.

I appreciate Warsi’s perspective: https://youtu.be/ipigziMMg1k?si=UiuoIDGg7T2mKBLc and her honesty in criticising Tories.

Tangent: I always found her quite good on Islamophobia, and it sounds like she regrets her social conservatism on gay marriage. It’s funny comparing her to Rory because somehow I find her more likeable because I also know I disagree with her on very serious issues that if I’m right and she’s wrong have destroyed lives. However I think she honestly believes otherwise. Whereas with Rory i just plain don’t understand why he is a Tory. He sounds incredibly earnest and thoughtful when he tries to explain it (as he does when he explains anything in the podcast) but it really just amounts to mumbling about having deep value in anachronistic ideas about nation and country that seem to me to be in fundamental conflict with his actual world views. On issues I can’t find anything that actually makes him a Tory and it seems I like everything else about him, but his inability to explain why he’s a Tory bothers me so much it almost spoils my entire impression. I can’t help but feel that he is simply not being honest about it because it just makes no sense, and he explains other things so clearly that it really stands out.

That was a good Podcast.

Rory is fiscally conservative as well as loving the monarchy and all the associated baggage. Basically a One Nation Tory who is socially liberal. I think Rory (and Warsi) are wrong on quite a few things, but aren't evil or careerist chancers.

[monkey]

I wouldn't be surprised if Putin et al had been pushing antisemitism there in order to distract from Putin's government's actions, either.

There's been a lot of antisemitism in Russian media over the last year and a half, and that's on top of a tradition of antisemitism that survived rather more intact than equivalent traditions in western Europe. Pogroms traditionally were state tolerated or state incited, with the state using them to distract from domestic issues.

I know this is old but…
Im sure that’s correct and I’ve see nasty racist propaganda from Putin. But in this particular case from what I have read it seems it was whipped up by anti-Putin channel Morning Dagestan: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-67269477. Putin tried to use it as propaganda because Morning Dagestan has links to a defector to Ukraine. Ukraine and us deny that and most likely Putin’s claim is to deflect blame for the security failure, etc, but as far as I know it’s not really disputed that this was stirred up by a source that is anti-Putin, so seems like he is not to for this directly.

But it is being claimed that a Russian ordered the people* who painted Stars of David on Jewish properties in Paris. I'm not sure how much you can trust that report yet, but the implication there is that Putin might be behind it. It wouldn't be the first time Russia would be found to be behind Antisemitic graffiti in The West.

*They are not being prosecuted because they are being deported to Moldova instead.


ETA: forgot the link - clicky