CO19 Dilemmas

Covid-19 discussion, bring your own statistics
Hunting Dog
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Re: CO19 Dilemmas

Post by Hunting Dog » Sat Apr 04, 2020 5:06 pm

shpalman wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 4:00 pm
stańczyk wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 3:14 pm
Should I be buying stuff using mail order during the pandemic? I can see arguments for and against.

No - You will put warehouse and delivery people at risk
Yes - You will be supporting the otherwise flatlined economy

Any opinions? There are a few things that I would like to buy and I am not sure if I should.
I know what you mean, and I'm kind of compromising by deciding that whatever money I spend on "unnecessary" things I will match in donations to local health and civil protection charities.
That's a good idea I've been wondering about this as well.

I'm also wondering about buying 'unnecessary' things like alcohol from the shops that are still open - though on that one, as I'm not gaining weight by drinking my usual amount (and not overweight), I assume I'd need to replace the calories with something else eventually, so 'meh'!

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shpalman
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Re: CO19 Dilemmas

Post by shpalman » Sun Apr 05, 2020 11:26 am

https://theconversation.com/the-ethics- ... own-135489

Business academics Andrew Crane and Dirk Matten basically say exactly what we've just said in this thread so thanks for that.
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Bird on a Fire
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Re: CO19 Dilemmas

Post by Bird on a Fire » Sun Apr 05, 2020 3:01 pm

Hunting Dog wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 5:06 pm
I'm also wondering about buying 'unnecessary' things like alcohol from the shops that are still open - though on that one, as I'm not gaining weight by drinking my usual amount (and not overweight), I assume I'd need to replace the calories with something else eventually, so 'meh'!
If you're already in the shop for genuine essentials I can't see what difference it makes putting a few extra things in the trolley, be they easter eggs or booze or whatever.
now I'm falling asleep and she's calling acab

Hunting Dog
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Re: CO19 Dilemmas

Post by Hunting Dog » Sun Apr 05, 2020 3:31 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Sun Apr 05, 2020 3:01 pm
Hunting Dog wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 5:06 pm
I'm also wondering about buying 'unnecessary' things like alcohol from the shops that are still open - though on that one, as I'm not gaining weight by drinking my usual amount (and not overweight), I assume I'd need to replace the calories with something else eventually, so 'meh'!
If you're already in the shop for genuine essentials I can't see what difference it makes putting a few extra things in the trolley, be they easter eggs or booze or whatever.
It wasn't so much me being in contact with more people, more the manufacturers' workers, having read things like this;
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/poli ... y-21761366
Though we're into cans of low strength cider/lager, not whisky, I assume the same sort of arguments would apply regarding their manufacturers?

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Re: CO19 Dilemmas

Post by badger » Sun Apr 05, 2020 4:23 pm

Next door neighbours have some family - from a different household - round for lunch in the garden.

How much is too much, when turning on the lawn sprinkler? Asking for a friend.

(Yes, the spray does easily reach over the fence)

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Re: CO19 Dilemmas

Post by shpalman » Sun Apr 05, 2020 4:24 pm

badger wrote:
Sun Apr 05, 2020 4:23 pm
Next door neighbours have some family - from a different household - round for lunch in the garden.

How much is too much, when turning on the lawn sprinkler? Asking for a friend.

(Yes, the spray does easily reach over the fence)
If you don't have a 70% ethanol solution to put through it, bleach also works to kill the virus.
molto tricky

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Bird on a Fire
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Re: CO19 Dilemmas

Post by Bird on a Fire » Sun Apr 05, 2020 4:30 pm

Hunting Dog wrote:
Sun Apr 05, 2020 3:31 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Sun Apr 05, 2020 3:01 pm
Hunting Dog wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 5:06 pm
I'm also wondering about buying 'unnecessary' things like alcohol from the shops that are still open - though on that one, as I'm not gaining weight by drinking my usual amount (and not overweight), I assume I'd need to replace the calories with something else eventually, so 'meh'!
If you're already in the shop for genuine essentials I can't see what difference it makes putting a few extra things in the trolley, be they easter eggs or booze or whatever.
It wasn't so much me being in contact with more people, more the manufacturers' workers, having read things like this;
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/poli ... y-21761366
Though we're into cans of low strength cider/lager, not whisky, I assume the same sort of arguments would apply regarding their manufacturers?
There's a very sensible argument for ceasing production of non-essentials (like booze). The government should have already ordered that kind of shutdown.

But for things like whisky and wine, most of what's in the shop was produced years ago (cans of lager and cider might be more recently produced). I don't see any problem with buying already-produced stock that's already on shelves in the shop if you're already there to buy essentials.
now I'm falling asleep and she's calling acab

badger
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Re: CO19 Dilemmas

Post by badger » Sun Apr 05, 2020 7:31 pm

shpalman wrote:
Sun Apr 05, 2020 4:24 pm
badger wrote:
Sun Apr 05, 2020 4:23 pm
Next door neighbours have some family - from a different household - round for lunch in the garden.

How much is too much, when turning on the lawn sprinkler? Asking for a friend.

(Yes, the spray does easily reach over the fence)
If you don't have a 70% ethanol solution to put through it, bleach also works to kill the virus.
Good tip, thanks. Worked a treat.

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Re: CO19 Dilemmas

Post by Millennie Al » Mon Apr 06, 2020 2:49 am

stańczyk wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 3:14 pm
Should I be buying stuff using mail order during the pandemic? I can see arguments for and against.

No - You will put warehouse and delivery people at risk
Yes - You will be supporting the otherwise flatlined economy

Any opinions? There are a few things that I would like to buy and I am not sure if I should.
Yes. It is the responsibility of employers, and not their customers, to provide a safe working environment. Many businesses have closed some or all of their online presence because they feel it's not sufficiently safe. The business and their workers know a lot more about their circumstances than a customers would. If your order would involve exceissive risk, the company can delay or cancel your order. If employees feel unsafe they can refuse to work (though, of course, if their emplyer disagrees this may require a trip to the employment tribunal to decide who is right).

Look at it this way. Assume you make the wrong decision. If you have ordered when you shouldn't, the people who suffer the consequences can fix your mistake, but of you refreain from ordering when you should the people who suffer get no choice as they have no way of knowing who you are or what you might have ordered.
Covid-19 - Don't catch it: don't spread it.

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Re: CO19 Dilemmas

Post by Millennie Al » Mon Apr 06, 2020 4:01 am

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Sun Apr 05, 2020 4:30 pm
There's a very sensible argument for ceasing production of non-essentials (like booze). The government should have already ordered that kind of shutdown.
Food and drink is "essential". But if you pick any one specific item, it is not essential. So if there is to be any shutting down of supply, it needs to take into account the practicality and the relative risk. Some items, such as milk and eggs, are produced at a rate that is not easy to adjust. You can throw away excess milk and eggs, but animals canot be turned on and off. The production of various types of food and drink requires various amount of human interaction. Some fruit and vegetables need lots of people to pick them by hand. That might provide many opportunities for workers to infect one another (their accommodation will be seasonal, and hardly luxurious). Other, such as brewing beer, can involve a lot of mechanisation, with automated bottling plamts which require relatively few operators to supervise, and the people who are needed may be able to wear better protective equipment. It's not just a matter of banning things that people enjoy as "non-essential", though that seems a common impulse.
Covid-19 - Don't catch it: don't spread it.

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Re: CO19 Dilemmas

Post by Hunting Dog » Mon Apr 06, 2020 6:33 am

Millennie Al wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 4:01 am
Food and drink is "essential". But if you pick any one specific item, it is not essential. So if there is to be any shutting down of supply, it needs to take into account the practicality and the relative risk. Some items, such as milk and eggs, are produced at a rate that is not easy to adjust. You can throw away excess milk and eggs, but animals canot be turned on and off. The production of various types of food and drink requires various amount of human interaction. Some fruit and vegetables need lots of people to pick them by hand. That might provide many opportunities for workers to infect one another (their accommodation will be seasonal, and hardly luxurious). Other, such as brewing beer, can involve a lot of mechanisation, with automated bottling plamts which require relatively few operators to supervise, and the people who are needed may be able to wear better protective equipment. It's not just a matter of banning things that people enjoy as "non-essential", though that seems a common impulse.
This seems a very sensible argument - thank you!

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snoozeofreason
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Re: CO19 Dilemmas

Post by snoozeofreason » Mon Apr 06, 2020 10:40 am

My mother and mother in law are a worry. Both are elderly and live by themselves. MiL, aged 91, has been getting confused about her medicines recently. My wife and her siblings know what she needs to take and phone her when each pill is due, but she still struggles to get it right. She ended up being admitted to hospital last night. Thankfully she was discharged in the morning, but this isn't a good time to be going into hospital (not for her, or the medics, or for my brother in law and his wife, who had to collect her and take her home).

My mother is 87 and pretty sharp mentally for her age, but she is finding the lockdown difficult to cope with and keeps threatening to go out for a walk, or even go shopping (she doesn't need to - her fridge and freezer are full, and we can keep it that way). MiL is also prone to go out for short walks, despite her confusion.

My wife our siblings are wracking our heads trying to think of things to keep our mothers occupied, so they are happier staying indoors. My wife has been doing a lot of family history with MiL, and I am giving technology lessons to my own mother (she seems to have got the hang of Skype, and is making some progress with a mobile phone that I have bought her). I imagine that we are not the only ones with these sorts of problems so if anyone has tips to share, we are all ears.
In six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them. The human body was knocked up pretty late on the Friday afternoon, with a deadline looming. How well do you expect it to work?

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Re: CO19 Dilemmas

Post by individualmember » Mon Apr 06, 2020 10:49 am

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Sun Apr 05, 2020 4:30 pm
There's a very sensible argument for ceasing production of non-essentials (like booze). The government should have already ordered that kind of shutdown.
The government decided a while ago that booze is an essential

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Re: CO19 Dilemmas

Post by bagpuss » Mon Apr 06, 2020 10:57 am

snoozeofreason wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 10:40 am
My mother and mother in law are a worry. Both are elderly and live by themselves. MiL, aged 91, has been getting confused about her medicines recently. My wife and her siblings know what she needs to take and phone her when each pill is due, but she still struggles to get it right. She ended up being admitted to hospital last night. Thankfully she was discharged in the morning, but this isn't a good time to be going into hospital (not for her, or the medics, or for my brother in law and his wife, who had to collect her and take her home).

My mother is 87 and pretty sharp mentally for her age, but she is finding the lockdown difficult to cope with and keeps threatening to go out for a walk, or even go shopping (she doesn't need to - her fridge and freezer are full, and we can keep it that way). MiL is also prone to go out for short walks, despite her confusion.

My wife our siblings are wracking our heads trying to think of things to keep our mothers occupied, so they are happier staying indoors. My wife has been doing a lot of family history with MiL, and I am giving technology lessons to my own mother (she seems to have got the hang of Skype, and is making some progress with a mobile phone that I have bought her). I imagine that we are not the only ones with these sorts of problems so if anyone has tips to share, we are all ears.
I'm not sure I have much to offer but would likewise be interested to hear of others' ideas.

My mother is 85 and tech-phobic. I live 60 miles away and my brother much further, so tech used to be a big part of how we kept in touch.
This wasn't a problem while my tech-savvy dad was alive but sadly he died over a year ago. My brother had finally managed to convince her to get a smart phone but we were going to help her get it set up with WhatsApp, etc, when we were due to see her for her birthday at the end of March. Obviously, that didn't happen so I'm trying to figure out how best to explain it over the phone to someone who is tech-phobic and hard of hearing. I know that being able to see her grandkids will help her a lot so I'm keen to figure it out but she's had the phone 2 months and only just worked out how to send a text to the right person, so it's going to be a challenge.

At least she is fundamentally still very sharp and seems to have finally got the message about staying indoors - her next door neighbours are being brilliant and doing all her shopping for her.

Anyway, I sent her an Amazon parcel with some audio-books on cd, the i puzzle book and a nice pen (and some hand cream, posh teabags, etc). She's very much appreciated those, and I'll send her some more bits and bobs in a couple of weeks, assuming Amazon carries on delivering.

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Re: CO19 Dilemmas

Post by Bird on a Fire » Mon Apr 06, 2020 11:38 am

Millennie Al wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 4:01 am
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Sun Apr 05, 2020 4:30 pm
There's a very sensible argument for ceasing production of non-essentials (like booze). The government should have already ordered that kind of shutdown.
Food and drink is "essential". But if you pick any one specific item, it is not essential. So if there is to be any shutting down of supply, it needs to take into account the practicality and the relative risk. Some items, such as milk and eggs, are produced at a rate that is not easy to adjust. You can throw away excess milk and eggs, but animals canot be turned on and off. The production of various types of food and drink requires various amount of human interaction. Some fruit and vegetables need lots of people to pick them by hand. That might provide many opportunities for workers to infect one another (their accommodation will be seasonal, and hardly luxurious). Other, such as brewing beer, can involve a lot of mechanisation, with automated bottling plamts which require relatively few operators to supervise, and the people who are needed may be able to wear better protective equipment. It's not just a matter of banning things that people enjoy as "non-essential", though that seems a common impulse.
I agree with most of this, up to the last sentence. If you think I'm proposing banning things because people (myself included) enjoy them you're dead wrong. It's about risks versus necessity.

Staple foods like vegetables, bread, dairy and meat are very obviously as close to essential as possible, and should continue to be produced safely. The same argument cannot be made for lager, or fancy pastries, or crisps. Stopping production of those things, at least where it can't be done safely, really wouldn't be the end of the world.

The increased marginal risk from continuing to stock/purchase those items when they're already in the supply chain is minimal and not worth worrying about. Running a separate facility to produce it, perhaps not so much.
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Re: CO19 Dilemmas

Post by Bird on a Fire » Mon Apr 06, 2020 11:39 am

individualmember wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 10:49 am
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Sun Apr 05, 2020 4:30 pm
There's a very sensible argument for ceasing production of non-essentials (like booze). The government should have already ordered that kind of shutdown.
The government decided a while ago that booze is an essential
I get a 404 not found from your link :(
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Re: CO19 Dilemmas

Post by Cardinal Fang » Mon Apr 06, 2020 12:09 pm

snoozeofreason wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 10:40 am
My mother and mother in law are a worry. Both are elderly and live by themselves. MiL, aged 91, has been getting confused about her medicines recently. My wife and her siblings know what she needs to take and phone her when each pill is due, but she still struggles to get it right. She ended up being admitted to hospital last night. Thankfully she was discharged in the morning, but this isn't a good time to be going into hospital (not for her, or the medics, or for my brother in law and his wife, who had to collect her and take her home).
Could you ask her dispensing pharmacy to put her medication into blister packs? That way they're already portioned out and labelled into the right days and times (e.g. morning and evening).

If someone was going over regularly then I'd suggest getting dosette boxes and divvying them up yourselves, but with social distancing, getting your pharmacy to do it might be a better tactic.

CF
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Re: CO19 Dilemmas

Post by secret squirrel » Mon Apr 06, 2020 12:50 pm

My in-laws sent us multiple boxes of surgical masks and hand gel without warning for some reason, and now we have to figure out the best way to distribute them for the benefit of society so we're not the worst kind of people.

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Re: CO19 Dilemmas

Post by JQH » Mon Apr 06, 2020 3:36 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 11:39 am
individualmember wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 10:49 am
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Sun Apr 05, 2020 4:30 pm
There's a very sensible argument for ceasing production of non-essentials (like booze). The government should have already ordered that kind of shutdown.
The government decided a while ago that booze is an essential
I get a 404 not found from your link :(
Worked for me.
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Re: CO19 Dilemmas

Post by raven » Mon Apr 06, 2020 4:00 pm

secret squirrel wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 12:50 pm
My in-laws sent us multiple boxes of surgical masks and hand gel without warning for some reason, and now we have to figure out the best way to distribute them for the benefit of society so we're not the worst kind of people.
Call the local OAP place, see if they need them?

Carers, bin men, supermarkets....

Prison guards. (Have distant-ish family members who work in prisons. In prisons with cases. They have no PPE at all. I was gobsmacked.)

ETA: Local volunteer groups who are delivering food to the vulnerable? If they don't need kit themselves, they might know who does.

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Re: CO19 Dilemmas

Post by snoozeofreason » Mon Apr 06, 2020 4:09 pm

Cardinal Fang wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 12:09 pm
snoozeofreason wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 10:40 am
My mother and mother in law are a worry. Both are elderly and live by themselves. MiL, aged 91, has been getting confused about her medicines recently. My wife and her siblings know what she needs to take and phone her when each pill is due, but she still struggles to get it right. She ended up being admitted to hospital last night. Thankfully she was discharged in the morning, but this isn't a good time to be going into hospital (not for her, or the medics, or for my brother in law and his wife, who had to collect her and take her home).
Could you ask her dispensing pharmacy to put her medication into blister packs? That way they're already portioned out and labelled into the right days and times (e.g. morning and evening).

If someone was going over regularly then I'd suggest getting dosette boxes and divvying them up yourselves, but with social distancing, getting your pharmacy to do it might be a better tactic.

CF
Thanks for that. Brother in law did manage to rearrange her medicines a bit when he collected her from the hospital, so that might help. Her late husband used to get his medication in blister packs so we might take it up with the pharmacist when she needs to renew.
In six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them. The human body was knocked up pretty late on the Friday afternoon, with a deadline looming. How well do you expect it to work?

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Re: CO19 Dilemmas

Post by individualmember » Mon Apr 06, 2020 9:39 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 11:39 am
individualmember wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 10:49 am
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Sun Apr 05, 2020 4:30 pm
There's a very sensible argument for ceasing production of non-essentials (like booze). The government should have already ordered that kind of shutdown.
The government decided a while ago that booze is an essential
I get a 404 not found from your link :(
Hmmm, BBC News on 25th March
Off-licences have been added to the government's list of essential UK retailers allowed to stay open during the coronavirus pandemic.
The list was updated on Wednesday amid increasing reports supermarkets are selling out of some beers and wines.
A major pub chain has said "almost all" its business had gone to supermarkets.
The move came as bicycle and car parts retailer Halfords had to defend its decision to keep shops open.
The list of essential retailers put together by the Cabinet Office now includes "off-licences and licensed shops selling alcohol, including those within breweries".
Pubs and restaurants have been required to close under the new restrictions, prompting complaints from the head of Wetherspoons pub chain, Tim Martin, who said that most of the chain's trade had gone to supermarkets.

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Re: CO19 Dilemmas

Post by Bird on a Fire » Mon Apr 06, 2020 10:07 pm

Thanks.

Tabacconists are still open here in Portugal, to be fair. (They also tend to be newsagents)
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Re: CO19 Dilemmas

Post by secret squirrel » Tue Apr 07, 2020 5:43 am

raven wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 4:00 pm
secret squirrel wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 12:50 pm
My in-laws sent us multiple boxes of surgical masks and hand gel without warning for some reason, and now we have to figure out the best way to distribute them for the benefit of society so we're not the worst kind of people.
Call the local OAP place, see if they need them?

Carers, bin men, supermarkets....

Prison guards. (Have distant-ish family members who work in prisons. In prisons with cases. They have no PPE at all. I was gobsmacked.)

ETA: Local volunteer groups who are delivering food to the vulnerable? If they don't need kit themselves, they might know who does.
These are good ideas, though I'm not in the UK. Our current idea is to give them to the cleaning staff at my wife's office. That way it'll be reasonably straightforward to organize a courier delivery, and they'll get to a section of the workforce that both needs to travel around the city and doesn't have a lot of resources.

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Re: CO19 Dilemmas

Post by raven » Tue Apr 07, 2020 12:23 pm

Cleaners is a good one. Bus drivers, train drivers, police.

Funeral homes. They need kit too, and it's getting increasingly difficult to source it.

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