US police & murders of black men

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jimbob
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US police & murders of black men

Post by jimbob » Tue May 19, 2020 11:58 am

Mod note: the discussions of the killings Ahmaud Arbery and George Floyd first arose on other threads, but as both occurred in a short space of time it seems sensible to unite them in a single thread.
jimbob wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 1:40 pm
Squeak wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 8:23 am
There's something incredibly sad about American politics that this is not just a cynical lefty joke. They couldn't get convictions to stick for that posse who took over the wildlife refuge at Malheur. I don't think I've heard of any arrests over the people wandering around the Michigan legislature shouting and waving guns. But riot gear and water cannons were considered appropriate tools for managing the pipeline protests in Dakota.
There's a really depressing thread that's been running on what used to be JREF about the behaviour of US police officers, with lots of utterly shocking incidents

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/fo ... p?t=323251
And a post from today there.
SuburbanTurkey wrote:This one has everything, God Bless America!

https://apnews.com/ca9b17cc4aa6d469b28097ad91529055

Black family wrongly accused of stealing gigantic TV brutalized by cops.

It has:

- Sams Club
- TV too big to fit into a SUV
- Black man wrongly accused of stealing his own property
- Police beating a 68 year old frail woman and her adult son.
- Charged with resisting arrest but no actual reason for arrest in the first place.

This is pure American essence, distilled.
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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by murmur » Tue May 19, 2020 4:29 pm

I've avoided that particular thread, but the one on Ahmaud Arbery is pretty depressing (I'm Carrot Flower King, 'cos some bastard else is already murmur or Murmur, after years of lurking).
It's so much more attractive inside the moral kiosk

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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by Martin Y » Tue May 19, 2020 4:53 pm

murmur wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 4:29 pm
I've avoided that particular thread, but the one on Ahmaud Arbery is pretty depressing (I'm Carrot Flower King, 'cos some bastard else is already murmur or Murmur, after years of lurking).
What a small world. I am Jack by the hedge.

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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by EACLucifer » Tue May 19, 2020 5:33 pm

murmur wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 4:29 pm
I've avoided that particular thread, but the one on Ahmaud Arbery is pretty depressing
For those not following American news, Ahmaud Arbery was murdered while out jogging by a pair of white men after they chased him down and threatened him with a gun, and local law enforcement sided with the murderers. I can't see any way to describe it but a lynching, in 2020.

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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by bjn » Tue May 19, 2020 5:55 pm

EACLucifer wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 5:33 pm
murmur wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 4:29 pm
I've avoided that particular thread, but the one on Ahmaud Arbery is pretty depressing
For those not following American news, Ahmaud Arbery was murdered while out jogging by a pair of white men after they chased him down and threatened him with a gun, and local law enforcement sided with the murderers. I can't see any way to describe it but a lynching, in 2020.
With the added bonus that the two of the three men involved (the third was filming) were ex law enforcement with some connection to far right groups.

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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by Bird on a Fire » Tue May 19, 2020 6:16 pm

bjn wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 5:55 pm
EACLucifer wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 5:33 pm
murmur wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 4:29 pm
I've avoided that particular thread, but the one on Ahmaud Arbery is pretty depressing
For those not following American news, Ahmaud Arbery was murdered while out jogging by a pair of white men after they chased him down and threatened him with a gun, and local law enforcement sided with the murderers. I can't see any way to describe it but a lynching, in 2020.
With the added bonus that the two of the three men involved (the third was filming) were ex law enforcement with some connection to far right groups.
I liked the way the third bloke released the footage of the murder because he thought it would exonerate the murderers, when it literally just shows them doing a murder for no reason.

Of course, technically all US law enforcement have links to far right groups.
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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by jimbob » Tue May 19, 2020 6:47 pm

murmur wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 4:29 pm
I've avoided that particular thread, but the one on Ahmaud Arbery is pretty depressing (I'm Carrot Flower King, 'cos some bastard else is already murmur or Murmur, after years of lurking).
Yes I saw that - as you say, depressing.

In case you couldn't guess, I'm Jimbob...
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by discovolante » Tue May 19, 2020 6:57 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 6:16 pm
bjn wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 5:55 pm
EACLucifer wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 5:33 pm


For those not following American news, Ahmaud Arbery was murdered while out jogging by a pair of white men after they chased him down and threatened him with a gun, and local law enforcement sided with the murderers. I can't see any way to describe it but a lynching, in 2020.
With the added bonus that the two of the three men involved (the third was filming) were ex law enforcement with some connection to far right groups.
I liked the way the third bloke released the footage of the murder because he thought it would exonerate the murderers, when it literally just shows them doing a murder for no reason.

Of course, technically all US law enforcement have links to far right groups.
Didn't they say they thought he was trying to trespass and started fighting back or something? Always some excuse to try and cast doubt on it all.
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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by Bird on a Fire » Tue May 19, 2020 7:26 pm

discovolante wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 6:57 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 6:16 pm
bjn wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 5:55 pm

With the added bonus that the two of the three men involved (the third was filming) were ex law enforcement with some connection to far right groups.
I liked the way the third bloke released the footage of the murder because he thought it would exonerate the murderers, when it literally just shows them doing a murder for no reason.

Of course, technically all US law enforcement have links to far right groups.
Didn't they say they thought he was trying to trespass and started fighting back or something? Always some excuse to try and cast doubt on it all.
They claimed they thought he was robbing a house under construction, so three men chased him with shotguns in a pickup truck and when he tried to get away they shot him three times. On camera.

Thing is, even the actual police aren't supposed to shoot unarmed people just because they're suspected of non-violent crime. A couple of nobodies certainly shouldn't, so as far as excuses go it's a pretty sh.t one.

ETA to be clear it does appear that he was wandering around a construction site for a bit, but without taking anything. There's a bit more detail here https://www.ajc.com/news/crime--law/gbi ... r80R7CTnL/
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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by discovolante » Tue May 19, 2020 9:09 pm

I would say well they should have just called the police instead but...
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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by Bird on a Fire » Tue May 19, 2020 9:31 pm

discovolante wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 9:09 pm
I would say well they should have just called the police instead but...
A neighbour had called the police, who were nearby and already on their way when Arbery was killed.

I suspect there is a slightly higher chance of the killers facing some sort of justice if they're non-cops, if only because the chance for actual cops is 0%. So that's almost a slight upside.
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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by Martin Y » Tue May 19, 2020 10:21 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 9:31 pm
I suspect there is a slightly higher chance of the killers facing some sort of justice if they're non-cops, if only because the chance for actual cops is 0%. So that's almost a slight upside.
I hate to pop that optimistic bubble but I gather the older accused is an ex-cop.

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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by murmur » Wed May 20, 2020 9:59 am

A former investigator for the District Attorney, who had a history of missing training, especially about use of firearms and detaining suspects...
It's so much more attractive inside the moral kiosk

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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by FlammableFlower » Wed May 20, 2020 1:51 pm

murmur wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 9:59 am
A former investigator for the District Attorney, who had a history of missing training, especially about use of firearms and detaining suspects...
But he made damn sure his anti-terrorism training was up to date...

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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by Bird on a Fire » Wed May 20, 2020 2:31 pm

Martin Y wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 10:21 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 9:31 pm
I suspect there is a slightly higher chance of the killers facing some sort of justice if they're non-cops, if only because the chance for actual cops is 0%. So that's almost a slight upside.
I hate to pop that optimistic bubble but I gather the older accused is an ex-cop.
Yeah I know, that's partly why there was no prosecution for months. (I particularly like the way people have recused themselves from the case while also writing letters to colleagues saying the shooters should get away with it, falsely claiming that they're covered under citizens arrest legislation.)

I'm just saying that a active cop, especially on duty, could do a murder in literally any circumstances and get away with it. Even to white people, like
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shootin ... iel_Shaver or this more recent case http://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/ho ... 235653.php
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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by EACLucifer » Wed May 20, 2020 2:42 pm

The reason American police kill isn't always just racism. It's also a militarised obsession with combat, and an attitude that considers cops to be good guys, and everyone who is a bad guy is fair game for violence and false charges. Racist prejudice happens to be one of the major ways they decide who they think of as a bad guy, but other prejudices are too.

This is not meant as "all lives matter" type nonsense, more that cases where police murder white people are not at all inconsistent with police murders of black people being a result of racist prejudice, and that confronting racism, while necessary, is not sufficient to stop American police murdering people; emphasis on radical reform to support due process, demilitarisation of the American police and emphasis on de-escalation is also an essential part of stopping the racist murder of black Americans by the American police.

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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by Bird on a Fire » Wed May 20, 2020 3:21 pm

EACLucifer wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 2:42 pm
The reason American police kill isn't always just racism. It's also a militarised obsession with combat, and an attitude that considers cops to be good guys, and everyone who is a bad guy is fair game for violence and false charges. Racist prejudice happens to be one of the major ways they decide who they think of as a bad guy, but other prejudices are too.

This is not meant as "all lives matter" type nonsense, more that cases where police murder white people are not at all inconsistent with police murders of black people being a result of racist prejudice, and that confronting racism, while necessary, is not sufficient to stop American police murdering people; emphasis on radical reform to support due process, demilitarisation of the American police and emphasis on de-escalation is also an essential part of stopping the racist murder of black Americans by the American police.
Yes, I completely agree with this. There's certainly a major problem of racism but also broader societal issues that are basically to do with power dynamics and class relations, on top of which specific issues about the functioning of the police and the wider justice system.

The fact that basically nothing has changed in the 30 years since Rodney King was murdered is pretty depressing.
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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by AMS » Wed May 20, 2020 3:46 pm

EACLucifer wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 2:42 pm
The reason American police kill isn't always just racism. It's also a militarised obsession with combat, and an attitude that considers cops to be good guys, and everyone who is a bad guy is fair game for violence and false charges. Racist prejudice happens to be one of the major ways they decide who they think of as a bad guy, but other prejudices are too.

This is not meant as "all lives matter" type nonsense, more that cases where police murder white people are not at all inconsistent with police murders of black people being a result of racist prejudice, and that confronting racism, while necessary, is not sufficient to stop American police murdering people; emphasis on radical reform to support due process, demilitarisation of the American police and emphasis on de-escalation is also an essential part of stopping the racist murder of black Americans by the American police.
Police in the UK can also generally head into most situations with an assumption that nobody on the scene is carrying a firearm, including the police themselves. If nobody is in immediate danger of being shot, it is much more conducive to approach the situation calmly. For US cops it's the opposite, and everything starts from a more volatile baseline.

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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by Woodchopper » Wed May 20, 2020 4:43 pm

AMS wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 3:46 pm
EACLucifer wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 2:42 pm
The reason American police kill isn't always just racism. It's also a militarised obsession with combat, and an attitude that considers cops to be good guys, and everyone who is a bad guy is fair game for violence and false charges. Racist prejudice happens to be one of the major ways they decide who they think of as a bad guy, but other prejudices are too.

This is not meant as "all lives matter" type nonsense, more that cases where police murder white people are not at all inconsistent with police murders of black people being a result of racist prejudice, and that confronting racism, while necessary, is not sufficient to stop American police murdering people; emphasis on radical reform to support due process, demilitarisation of the American police and emphasis on de-escalation is also an essential part of stopping the racist murder of black Americans by the American police.
Police in the UK can also generally head into most situations with an assumption that nobody on the scene is carrying a firearm, including the police themselves. If nobody is in immediate danger of being shot, it is much more conducive to approach the situation calmly. For US cops it's the opposite, and everything starts from a more volatile baseline.
Yes, indeed. Lots of Europeans were aghast at US police departments obtaining ex-military armoured vehicles. But when people can walk out of a shop with one of these it’s a sensible precaution.
D4603EA9-35E6-4A1A-864F-AA81FC505F4F.jpeg
D4603EA9-35E6-4A1A-864F-AA81FC505F4F.jpeg (134.3 KiB) Viewed 644 times

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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by EACLucifer » Wed May 20, 2020 4:47 pm

Woodchopper wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 4:43 pm
AMS wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 3:46 pm
EACLucifer wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 2:42 pm
The reason American police kill isn't always just racism. It's also a militarised obsession with combat, and an attitude that considers cops to be good guys, and everyone who is a bad guy is fair game for violence and false charges. Racist prejudice happens to be one of the major ways they decide who they think of as a bad guy, but other prejudices are too.

This is not meant as "all lives matter" type nonsense, more that cases where police murder white people are not at all inconsistent with police murders of black people being a result of racist prejudice, and that confronting racism, while necessary, is not sufficient to stop American police murdering people; emphasis on radical reform to support due process, demilitarisation of the American police and emphasis on de-escalation is also an essential part of stopping the racist murder of black Americans by the American police.
Police in the UK can also generally head into most situations with an assumption that nobody on the scene is carrying a firearm, including the police themselves. If nobody is in immediate danger of being shot, it is much more conducive to approach the situation calmly. For US cops it's the opposite, and everything starts from a more volatile baseline.
Yes, indeed. Lots of Europeans were aghast at US police departments obtaining ex-military armoured vehicles. But when people can walk out of a shop with one of these it’s a sensible precaution.
D4603EA9-35E6-4A1A-864F-AA81FC505F4F.jpeg
That's probably one of the least dangerous firearms one can get in the states. The dangerous ones are the easily concealed, cheap little straight-blowback .25s and .32s that can be thrown away after use.

And there's plenty of nations where people can get guns. Not saying they aren't a factor, but they clearly aren't the main problem, given that it is quite possible to get guns in many european countries, for example. Nor do guns explain things like the tendency of American police to plant drugs - but things like civil asset forfeiture and the confrontational attitudes endemic in their police do.

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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by jimbob » Wed May 20, 2020 5:40 pm

Having 12 thousand odd police forces over half with fewer than 10 full time employees is also a problem
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by Martin Y » Wed May 20, 2020 5:59 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 3:21 pm
...
The fact that basically nothing has changed in the 30 years since Rodney King was murdered is pretty depressing.
Slip of the keyboard, I appreciate, but of course Rodney King was not murdered. The police beat the crap out of him, and the only reason we've heard of him is that someone got it on video.

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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by EACLucifer » Wed May 20, 2020 6:11 pm

jimbob wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 5:40 pm
Having 12 thousand odd police forces over half with fewer than 10 full time employees is also a problem
Yes, it is a perfect breeding ground for cronyism, and a culture where the police bond with each other but hold the public in contempt.

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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by jimbob » Wed May 20, 2020 7:09 pm

EACLucifer wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 6:11 pm
jimbob wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 5:40 pm
Having 12 thousand odd police forces over half with fewer than 10 full time employees is also a problem
Yes, it is a perfect breeding ground for cronyism, and a culture where the police bond with each other but hold the public in contempt.
As far as I can tell, Hazard County Sheriff might make it to the bottom quartile of US police forces, but probably no worse
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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by Bird on a Fire » Wed May 20, 2020 7:19 pm

Martin Y wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 5:59 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 3:21 pm
...
The fact that basically nothing has changed in the 30 years since Rodney King was murdered is pretty depressing.
Slip of the keyboard, I appreciate, but of course Rodney King was not murdered. The police beat the crap out of him, and the only reason we've heard of him is that someone got it on video.
Slip of the brain! Thanks for the correction.

Having cameras everywhere, including on the front of police, doesn't seem to have stopped cases like that as much as might have been expected/hoped.
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