Is there life on Venus?
Re: Is there life on Venus?
basementer wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 6:26 amI remember when there was discussion of what might have been microbial remnants on a bit of Mars rock, mid to late 1990s, Terry Pratchett said something close to "I want so much for this to be true that I hope the scientists are trying their hardest to prove that it isn't". I couldn't have phrased it better.
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Re: Is there life on Venus?
shpalman wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 7:56 amWell I did find Phosphine Detected In The Atmosphere of Venus
It wouldn't be such a good sign if phosphine were detected in the atmosphere of my lab.
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Re: Is there life on Venus?
From that link:lpm wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 3:32 pmshpalman wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 7:56 amWell I did find Phosphine Detected In The Atmosphere of Venus
It wouldn't be such a good sign if phosphine were detected in the atmosphere of my lab.
He's bl..dy psychic, he is. Made me chuckle anyway.Unlikely you'll hear anyone claim at @RoyalAstroSoc that they've discovered life on #Venus. Rather, they've found chemistry that current thinking would most likely suggest a biotic source. Just watch as organic chemists pop up with many feasible abiotic explanations
Re: Is there life on Venus?
What sort of biological processes might produce phosphine?FlammableFlower wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:12 pmFrom that link:lpm wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 3:32 pmshpalman wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 7:56 amWell I did find Phosphine Detected In The Atmosphere of Venus
It wouldn't be such a good sign if phosphine were detected in the atmosphere of my lab.He's bl..dy psychic, he is. Made me chuckle anyway.Unlikely you'll hear anyone claim at @RoyalAstroSoc that they've discovered life on #Venus. Rather, they've found chemistry that current thinking would most likely suggest a biotic source. Just watch as organic chemists pop up with many feasible abiotic explanations
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation
Re: Is there life on Venus?
The Sky At Night is currently running a special, it’s great.
where once I used to scintillate
now I sin till ten past three
now I sin till ten past three
Re: Is there life on Venus?
My avatar was a scientific result that was later found to be 'mistaken' - I rarely claim to be 100% correct
ETA 5/8/20: I've been advised that the result was correct, it was the initial interpretation that needed to be withdrawn
Meta? I'd say so!
ETA 5/8/20: I've been advised that the result was correct, it was the initial interpretation that needed to be withdrawn
Meta? I'd say so!
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Re: Is there life on Venus?
There are some microbes that produce it.jimbob wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:34 pmWhat sort of biological processes might produce phosphine?FlammableFlower wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:12 pmFrom that link:He's bl..dy psychic, he is. Made me chuckle anyway.Unlikely you'll hear anyone claim at @RoyalAstroSoc that they've discovered life on #Venus. Rather, they've found chemistry that current thinking would most likely suggest a biotic source. Just watch as organic chemists pop up with many feasible abiotic explanations
K.R.M. Mackey, A. Paytan, Encyclopedia of Microbiology (Third Edition), 2009 wrote:The phosphorus cycle differs from the cycles of other biologically important elements, such as carbon, nitrogen, and sulfur, in that it lacks a significant gaseous component; nearly all phosphorus in the environment resides either in solid or in aqueous forms. The one exception to this rule is the volatile compound phosphine (PH3, also called phosphane), a colorless, poisonous gas formed in the environment from the breakdown of alkali metal or alkali earth metal phosphides with water. This process is poorly characterized and likely comprises various multistage chemical reactions. Microbially mediated phosphine production can be a major source of the gas in engineered systems (e.g., sewage treatment facilities and constructed wastewater treatment wetlands) where organic phosphorus is abundant and reducing conditions are common, suggesting that microbes could also play a role in phosphine formation in natural systems (although the direct enzymatic production of phosphine has not yet been identified). Although phosphorus can exist as phosphine, the gas does not persist in the environment owing to rapid autoxidation, precluding significant accumulation of phosphine in the atmosphere. Phosphine is therefore a minor component of the environmental phosphorus pool.
Re: Is there life on Venus?
Carl Sagan suggested looking for phosphine as a bio-signature years ago, but no one has really done it before
where once I used to scintillate
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Re: Is there life on Venus?
I just keep thinking "Rimmer aliens used our bogroll?"
having that swing is a necessary but not sufficient condition for it meaning a thing
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Re: Is there life on Venus?
Tonight's Sky at Night
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m ... e-on-venus
The first general hint of this news (for me) was that this month's S@N would be on a Monday evening rather than the usual Sunday night, as"an announcement is being made on Monday 14th".
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m ... e-on-venus
The first general hint of this news (for me) was that this month's S@N would be on a Monday evening rather than the usual Sunday night, as"an announcement is being made on Monday 14th".
My avatar was a scientific result that was later found to be 'mistaken' - I rarely claim to be 100% correct
ETA 5/8/20: I've been advised that the result was correct, it was the initial interpretation that needed to be withdrawn
Meta? I'd say so!
ETA 5/8/20: I've been advised that the result was correct, it was the initial interpretation that needed to be withdrawn
Meta? I'd say so!
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Re: Is there life on Venus?
BBC specifically says "microbes living in the guts of animals like penguins"...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-54133538
Think we have the answer...
Re: Is there life on Venus?
sounds plausible Bobbob sterman wrote: ↑Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:32 amBBC specifically says "microbes living in the guts of animals like penguins"...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-54133538
Think we have the answer...
Who knew that Squeak was actually an astrobiologist?
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation
Re: Is there life on Venus?
You didn't see anything.bob sterman wrote: ↑Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:32 amBBC specifically says "microbes living in the guts of animals like penguins"...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-54133538
Think we have the answer...
And when it starts to slide
Let it go
Leave it behind
Let it go
Leave it behind
Re: Is there life on Venus?
I'm really sorry, I'd love to have a thought out opinion on this but everytime I try to think about it my brain plays "Subway to Venus" by RHCP like really, really loud.
So my uninformed and ill-considered position on the OP question is "probably not".
So my uninformed and ill-considered position on the OP question is "probably not".
Non fui. Fui. Non sum. Non curo.
Re: Is there life on Venus?
Some of my colleagues are not entirely convinced that the claimed detection in the paper is actually a spectral line. And they are among the world's experts on detecting molecules in planetary atmospheres with the telescopes in question, and one is acknowledged in this paper.
I suggest you look at fig. 3 first, then fig. 1 and fig. 2 in the paper.
Additionally, pulling the line out of the background involves fitting a 12th order polynomial to the spectra, which is a potentially difficult thing to get right and not contaminate the data with.
I suggest you look at fig. 3 first, then fig. 1 and fig. 2 in the paper.
Additionally, pulling the line out of the background involves fitting a 12th order polynomial to the spectra, which is a potentially difficult thing to get right and not contaminate the data with.
Re: Is there life on Venus?
12th order polynomial.dyqik wrote: ↑Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:06 pmSome of my colleagues are not entirely convinced that the claimed detection in the paper is actually a spectral line. And they are among the world's experts on detecting molecules in planetary atmospheres with the telescopes in question, and one is acknowledged in this paper.
I suggest you look at fig. 3 first, then fig. 1 and fig. 2 in the paper.
Additionally, pulling the line out of the background involves fitting a 12th order polynomial to the spectra, which is a potentially difficult thing to get right and not contaminate the data with.
Yikes
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation
Re: Is there life on Venus?
They did say in the Sky at Night that they had to do a lot of data processing.
where once I used to scintillate
now I sin till ten past three
now I sin till ten past three
Re: Is there life on Venus?
I'm sure there's a robust theoretical reason why that is a sensible thing to do. But it will be one hell of a theory.jimbob wrote: ↑Wed Sep 16, 2020 8:17 am12th order polynomial.dyqik wrote: ↑Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:06 pmSome of my colleagues are not entirely convinced that the claimed detection in the paper is actually a spectral line. And they are among the world's experts on detecting molecules in planetary atmospheres with the telescopes in question, and one is acknowledged in this paper.
I suggest you look at fig. 3 first, then fig. 1 and fig. 2 in the paper.
Additionally, pulling the line out of the background involves fitting a 12th order polynomial to the spectra, which is a potentially difficult thing to get right and not contaminate the data with.
Yikes
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Re: Is there life on Venus?
Could you clarify, dyqik, is it that a 12th order polynomial is usually used in this sort of analysis, although it's known to be tricky? Or that this is a novel technique that immediately looks risky?dyqik wrote: ↑Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:06 pmSome of my colleagues are not entirely convinced that the claimed detection in the paper is actually a spectral line. And they are among the world's experts on detecting molecules in planetary atmospheres with the telescopes in question, and one is acknowledged in this paper.
I suggest you look at fig. 3 first, then fig. 1 and fig. 2 in the paper.
Additionally, pulling the line out of the background involves fitting a 12th order polynomial to the spectra, which is a potentially difficult thing to get right and not contaminate the data with.
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Re: Is there life on Venus?
It doesn’t look an amazingly secure finding, but it should be one that can be reproduced or disproven with a few more observations.
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Re: Is there life on Venus?
I know the polynomials form a complete set but I struggle to think of any physical reason for using such a high order one here.
having that swing is a necessary but not sufficient condition for it meaning a thing
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Re: Is there life on Venus?
They might not have had a physical model if they were using the 12th order fit just for smoothing or subtracting the background, but they should've tested for overfitting, did they do that?
(I've not looked at the paper)
Re: Is there life on Venus?
No, you don't usually do it like that. I'm on vacation, so haven't spoken to colleagues in detail about this.basementer wrote: ↑Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:54 pmCould you clarify, dyqik, is it that a 12th order polynomial is usually used in this sort of analysis, although it's known to be tricky? Or that this is a novel technique that immediately looks risky?dyqik wrote: ↑Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:06 pmSome of my colleagues are not entirely convinced that the claimed detection in the paper is actually a spectral line. And they are among the world's experts on detecting molecules in planetary atmospheres with the telescopes in question, and one is acknowledged in this paper.
I suggest you look at fig. 3 first, then fig. 1 and fig. 2 in the paper.
Additionally, pulling the line out of the background involves fitting a 12th order polynomial to the spectra, which is a potentially difficult thing to get right and not contaminate the data with.
Re: Is there life on Venus?
For terrestrial atmospheric lines seen looking up, we fit a complete radiation transfer model containing all the known species, abundances, temperature and pressure profiles, etc.