Male violence and harassment of women

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bmforre
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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by bmforre » Mon Mar 22, 2021 10:31 am

From Turkey Erdogan Quits European Treaty on Violence Against Women.
ANKARA - President Recep Tayyip Erdogan pulled Turkey out of an international accord designed to protect women, the country's official gazette said Saturday, despite calls from advocates who see the pact as key to combating rising domestic violence.

The Council of Europe accord, forged in Istanbul, pledged to prevent, prosecute and eliminate domestic violence and promote equality. Turkey, which signed the accord in 2011, saw a rise in femicides last year...

Many conservatives in Turkey say the pact undermines family structures, encouraging violence. They are also hostile to the principle of gender equality in the Istanbul Convention and see it as promoting homosexuality, given its principle of non-discrimination on grounds of sexual orientation.
The country is not alone:
Other countries have moved toward ditching the accord. Poland's highest court scrutinized the pact after a cabinet member said Warsaw should quit the treaty, which the nationalist government considers too liberal.
More at link.

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by egbert26 » Mon Mar 22, 2021 3:50 pm

Holy sh.t I went on Twitter today and saw footage (since removed by the account below due its content, but available elsewhere) that turned my stomach. Last Thursday in Stamford Hill, a young Jewish woman, 27 weeks pregnant was stalked by a man at 6.30pm. When she turned down an alley/side street CCTV footage shows him trying to place what looks like a pillowcase over her head before he repeatedly punches her belly. He then ran off with his shopping trolley (what the hell did that contain?).

I wonder how people will analyse her behaviour/dress to try to diminish the behaviour of this man.

https://twitter.com/Shomrim/status/1373 ... 48675?s=20
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Woodchopper
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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by Woodchopper » Mon Mar 22, 2021 4:35 pm

egbert26 wrote:
Mon Mar 22, 2021 3:50 pm
Holy sh.t I went on Twitter today and saw footage (since removed by the account below due its content, but available elsewhere) that turned my stomach. Last Thursday in Stamford Hill, a young Jewish woman, 27 weeks pregnant was stalked by a man at 6.30pm. When she turned down an alley/side street CCTV footage shows him trying to place what looks like a pillowcase over her head before he repeatedly punches her belly. He then ran off with his shopping trolley (what the hell did that contain?).

I wonder how people will analyse her behaviour/dress to try to diminish the behaviour of this man.

https://twitter.com/Shomrim/status/1373 ... 48675?s=20
sh.t. That looks like a racist hate crime. There's a long history of attacks intended to cause a termination of a pregnancy.

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by egbert26 » Mon Mar 22, 2021 5:56 pm

Woodchopper wrote:
Mon Mar 22, 2021 4:35 pm

sh.t. That looks like a racist hate crime. There's a long history of attacks intended to cause a termination of a pregnancy.
Really? Wow. :x
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Woodchopper
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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by Woodchopper » Mon Mar 22, 2021 6:37 pm

egbert26 wrote:
Mon Mar 22, 2021 5:56 pm
Woodchopper wrote:
Mon Mar 22, 2021 4:35 pm

sh.t. That looks like a racist hate crime. There's a long history of attacks intended to cause a termination of a pregnancy.
Really? Wow. :x
At this point I’d usually post some links to further reading. But I just don’t want to go there.

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by bmforre » Tue Mar 23, 2021 6:17 am

Woodchopper wrote:
Mon Mar 22, 2021 6:37 pm
At this point I’d usually post some links to further reading. But I just don’t want to go there.
Let me post a link I find relevant:
Persecuted women freed
It has been called one of the most powerful photos of the 20th century and is surely one of the most moving from the Holocaust: a woman and a little girl running uphill from a train that had been liberated by American troops.
My link goes to an article in Haaretz, I believe anyone can read a few articles for free?

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Tessa K
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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by Tessa K » Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:24 am

egbert26 wrote:
Mon Mar 22, 2021 3:50 pm
Holy sh.t I went on Twitter today and saw footage (since removed by the account below due its content, but available elsewhere) that turned my stomach. Last Thursday in Stamford Hill, a young Jewish woman, 27 weeks pregnant was stalked by a man at 6.30pm. When she turned down an alley/side street CCTV footage shows him trying to place what looks like a pillowcase over her head before he repeatedly punches her belly. He then ran off with his shopping trolley (what the hell did that contain?).

I wonder how people will analyse her behaviour/dress to try to diminish the behaviour of this man.

https://twitter.com/Shomrim/status/1373 ... 48675?s=20
I heard on the news this morning that he's been arrested.

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by Tessa K » Tue Mar 23, 2021 1:19 pm

A teenager was murdered by her stalker after she reported him to the police five times in a tragic case described as 'avoidable'.

Instead of helping 19-year-old Shana Grice, Sussex Police fined her £90 for ‘wasting police time’ on one occasion.
No doubt they will say there are 'lessons to be learnt'.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/t ... e-23775721

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by Fishnut » Tue Mar 23, 2021 6:23 pm

I've been reminded by the Boulder shooting thread that after our initial outrage and speculation we let the Atlanta shootings slide. I feel this is far more an indictment of the prevalence of violence towards women than any lack of care or concern but having noticed I feel it should be rectified.

Information about the victims has come out. They were:
Delaina Ashley Yaun, 33 - a customer receiving a couple's massage with her husband (who survived the shooting unhurt). They were recently married and had a 13 year old son and an 8 month old girl.

Daoyou Feng, 44 - little is known about Ms Feng who only started working at the spa a few months ago.

Xiaojie Tan, 49 - she was murdered a day before her 50th birthday. She came from China and moved to the US in 2006 with her then-husband. She remarried and ran three businesses, including Young's Asian Massage, with her husband.

Hyun Jung Grant, 51 - worked at Gold Spa. She was an elementary school teacher in Korea. She moved to the US for 'regular immigrant reasons' and was a single mother to two sons.

Yong Ae Yue, 63 - a licensed massage therapist who worked at Aromatherapy Spa. She had started working there after being laid off from previous employment due to the pandemic. She had two sons.

Suncha Kim, 69 - worked at Gold Spa. She originally came from Korea, had been married for 50 years and was a grandmother.

Soon Chung Park
, 74 - she made food for the employees of Gold Spa. She had lived most of her life in New York and was going to move back when the lease on her apartment ended.

Paul Andre Michels, 54 - unemployed but doing maintenance at Young's Asian Spa on the day of the attack.

It looks like employees at Gold Spa had been arrested for prostitution offences between 2011 and 2014 and the mass murderer had been a customer at both Gold Spa and Aromatherapy Spa, though it's unknown if he sought anything more or whether he was successful if he did. The NY Times article notes that it's unclear whether there's been a change of ownership of the spas since 2014 or whether there's been a continuation of illegal prostitution at these businesses since then.

Of course, whether or not these women also performed sex work is immaterial, they did not deserve to die.

In other news, Capt. Jay Baker, the spokesperson for Cherokee County Sheriff’s Office was replaced by Cherokee County Communications Director Erika Neldner following Baker's comments that the accused had had a "bad day" and that the attack was not racially motivated.

This BBC article has a surprisingly good analysis of the aftermath.
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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by bmforre » Wed Mar 24, 2021 12:13 am

Fishnut wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 6:23 pm
I've been reminded by the Boulder shooting thread that after our initial outrage and speculation we let the Atlanta shootings slide. I feel this is far more an indictment of the prevalence of violence towards women than any lack of care or concern but having noticed I feel it should be rectified...

Of course, whether or not these women also performed sex work is immaterial, they did not deserve to die...
What you write here strongly reminds me of Hugo's introduction to the Miserables:
So long as there shall exist, by virtue of law and custom, decrees of damnation pronounced by society, artificially creating hells amid the civilization of earth ...; so long as the three great problems of the century—the degradation of man through pauperism, the corruption of woman through hunger, the crippling of children through lack of light—are unsolved; so long as social asphyxia is possible in any part of the world;—in other words, and with a still wider significance, so long as ignorance and poverty exist on earth, books of the nature of Les Misérables cannot fail to be of use.
My source: https://www.gutenberg.org/files/135/135 ... ink2H_PREF

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by Squeak » Wed Mar 24, 2021 4:07 am

Deep cleaning offices might not do much to prevent the spread of covid but it seems sadly needed in Australia's Parliament, at least if you're a woman.

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-n ... dApp_Other

Oh, and young women who get allegedly raped in Parliament House are a national security risk, so they deserve anything that happens to them. (Nb - for that not following Australian politics closely, the revolting remarks reported below refer to two entirely separate rape allegations centred on the federal government.)

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-n ... dApp_Other

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Fishnut
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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by Fishnut » Wed Mar 24, 2021 10:07 pm

Good god, that's disgusting.
Oh look, he's doing the "I was nice to some women so how on earth could I be nasty to other women?" routine.
Abetz noted on Wednesday he had helped set up a women’s shelter before he entered parliament “and to suggest that I would make light of a rape allegation is horrendous [and] categorically denied by myself”.
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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by Fishnut » Wed Mar 24, 2021 10:30 pm

A police officer, who worked with vulnerable children, has been sacked after allegations of domestic abuse including strangulation. While I'm pleased to hear that he will no longer be working in a position of authority, I have to wonder why there is no mention of pursuing a criminal case against him.
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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by Bird on a Fire » Thu Mar 25, 2021 1:40 am

The police officer who used to come to my primary school every year to do the anti-drugs talks got done for child p.rnography. I don't think he was ever alone with kids but it's not nice to think of his motivations for signing up for that job.

(I was only about 10, so I went in with an open mind to what the grownups were telling us. But I remember he told some story about policing a music festival, and how he'd wait for people he suspected of holding to buy their entrance tickets before nicking them, with a look of glee on his face, and I thought "well that's a bit out of order".)

To be fair, I'm not sure whether the rates of these things are worse than amongst the general population, though obviously you'd hope they'd be better, and there's suggestive evidence of officers' crimes getting covered up. In general though, it does seem like entrusting vulnerable people's safety to a bunch of stressed men, trained to be aggressive and given a lot of power, might not be universally wise.
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Tessa K
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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by Tessa K » Thu Mar 25, 2021 10:29 am

Another one in Stamford Hill. There's a good chance that any attacks up there also have an anti-Semitic element.
A man who exposed himself to children and a young woman in east London is being sought by police.

Two girls, aged 12 and 15, and a 20-year-old woman were all approached by the man in January and February in Stamford Hill.

He showed p.rnography on his phone to the first girl and exposed himself to both the other girl and the woman.

He also sexually touched the woman as she pushed a child in a buggy. Police are linking all three incidents.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-56517930

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by Woodchopper » Thu Mar 25, 2021 10:48 am

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Thu Mar 25, 2021 1:40 am
To be fair, I'm not sure whether the rates of these things are worse than amongst the general population, though obviously you'd hope they'd be better, and there's suggestive evidence of officers' crimes getting covered up.
What we do know is that men who want to sexually abuse children actively seek out positions of authority which will give them access to children and help intimidate the victims into remaining silent. Those men are often highly manipulative and accomplished liars. That will apply to the police as much as it does to teachers, Scout or Guide leaders, care home workers etc

I assume the same applies to men who want to abuse adults.

Whether rates are higher or lower than the rest of the population depends upon how effective is the screening of new recruits and monitoring after people join the organization.

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by Tessa K » Thu Mar 25, 2021 10:52 am

Woodchopper wrote:
Thu Mar 25, 2021 10:48 am
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Thu Mar 25, 2021 1:40 am
To be fair, I'm not sure whether the rates of these things are worse than amongst the general population, though obviously you'd hope they'd be better, and there's suggestive evidence of officers' crimes getting covered up.
What we do know is that men who want to sexually abuse children actively seek out positions of authority which will give them access to children and help intimidate the victims into remaining silent. Those men are often highly manipulative and accomplished liars. That will apply to the police as much as it does to teachers, Scout or Guide leaders, care home workers etc

I assume the same applies to men who want to abuse adults.

Whether rates are higher or lower than the rest of the population depends upon how effective is the screening of new recruits and monitoring after people join the organization.
I suspect that historically there was also an element of opportunism. Some men who found themselves working in institutions or companies where the abuse of women was seen as a perk of the job and part of the 'culture' would have joined in even if they had no previous history of it. And maybe still do.

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by Fishnut » Thu Mar 25, 2021 2:11 pm

This is a fantastic piece. It's about what men can do to make women feel safe. I particularly loved his bit:
How many times have you seen a man become a father and miraculously realise what a terrible place the world can be for a woman? Where was this energy before, when he was gaslighting his girlfriends or catcalling women or messaging “F*** you, bitch. You’re ugly anyway” to a woman who ignored his messages on Tinder? And if it’s “not all men” why are guys so bossy and possessive in the name of “being protective”? It’s almost like they know exactly what other men are capable of, that you never know a man’s true intentions until it’s too late, isn’t it?
(h/t stephanie)
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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by Martin Y » Thu Mar 25, 2021 2:45 pm

Well okay i shall read the piece but honestly, and I do mean honestly, the quote is like someone's triumphantly holding up a mirror to me and the "reflection" is a picture of some stranger.

However much that quote resonates for you and with your experience, it just doesn't for me.

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by Fishnut » Thu Mar 25, 2021 2:48 pm

The number of times I've seen men suddenly start to care about women's rights because they have a daughter is just depressing.
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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by Stephanie » Thu Mar 25, 2021 2:58 pm

Martin Y wrote:
Thu Mar 25, 2021 2:45 pm
Well okay i shall read the piece but honestly, and I do mean honestly, the quote is like someone's triumphantly holding up a mirror to me and the "reflection" is a picture of some stranger.

However much that quote resonates for you and with your experience, it just doesn't for me.
I mean, the writer is a man for starters, so I doubt it's triumphantly. I personally have seen men do the "as a father of daughters" thing, and I'm not a dude. It's so cliche it's almost a trope.
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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by Woodchopper » Thu Mar 25, 2021 3:05 pm

Stephanie wrote:
Thu Mar 25, 2021 2:58 pm
Martin Y wrote:
Thu Mar 25, 2021 2:45 pm
Well okay i shall read the piece but honestly, and I do mean honestly, the quote is like someone's triumphantly holding up a mirror to me and the "reflection" is a picture of some stranger.

However much that quote resonates for you and with your experience, it just doesn't for me.
I mean, the writer is a man for starters, so I doubt it's triumphantly. I personally have seen men do the "as a father of daughters" thing, and I'm not a dude. It's so cliche it's almost a trope.
There may be different reasons for it. Men who express solidarity with women will often be assumed to be putting on a performance in order to curry favour. (And not unreasonably, I've heard of some very sh.tty things been done by so called feminist allies).

But speaking up on behalf of a daughter is different. Its a much more acceptable way to express solidarity.

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by Martin Y » Thu Mar 25, 2021 3:07 pm

I don't doubt youve seen new fathers suddenly switch but our experiences seem to have come from two different planets which leaves me feeling pretty useless.

The GQ article had a few points that touched on my experience; I can remember being given a sheet of dos and don'ts as a new student which included not walking behind women at night and, yes, I can remember thinking that was ridiculous and surely way over the top. (Who could I ever intimidate? I was more concerned that I'd get beaten up.) And of course I came to appreciate I had been utterly unaware of women's reality.

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by nezumi » Thu Mar 25, 2021 4:00 pm

Martin Y wrote:
Thu Mar 25, 2021 3:07 pm
And of course I came to appreciate I had been utterly unaware of women's reality.
Just my experience for a bit then a point, I promise.

Different men come to this realisation at different times. For my Dad, losing his Dad at 11 was the catalyst. He saw his Mum get by as a single parent on a wage of 1/10th of eff all and I think it was just obvious that women are absolutely as human as men. He has always treated me as just (if not more) capable than my brother and has taught my brother about protecting women very well. However, I know both of them during their teens and early twenties have definitely been creeps to women. My Dad through stories he told and my brother by just being next to him in bars while he was trying to chat up girls (oh the cringe, ladies and gentlemen, the cringe) and he did not appreciate my taking him to one side and offering pointers - he was, after all, about 18 and pissed.

In my own experience of young men around me as I was growing up a latchkey kid the greatest danger is between ages 13-15, it is a rare young man at that age who has any idea how to behave around girls or has any innate or taught restraint when it comes to sexual ambitions. I am certain nobody in this forum has behaved like this themselves, I'm sure you were all those rare young men to be quite frank.

I've agonised over it and I'm not ready to make my full experience in this area public because it's 1: a bit overwhelming 2: personal and 3: probably so extreme you'd think I was making some of it up. I'm not even sure which things I want to share so I'll just tell a couple of stories from when I was about 12 or 13. Anything after that is worse. Also, I feel like I need to spoiler this next bit and I am totally procrastinating.

The following is a girl's reality circa 1996-1999. God I hope things have changed but I suspect strongly it's even worse now.

Spoiler:


At that age, other girls can be as much your enemy as young men can be. I think we're best off teaching in a very explicit way how to deal with attempts at manipulation - no matter who they're coming from.

I've deliberately stayed away from my experiences of out-and-out sexual assault and/or harrassment because the point I'm trying to make is that *that* is a very common experience for young women - now with added sexting and naked selfies. And that these things aren't just done and condoned by some men, in many cases it can only happen with the complicity, however naive, of some women.

... and breathe.
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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by Stephanie » Thu Mar 25, 2021 4:34 pm

Martin Y wrote:
Thu Mar 25, 2021 3:07 pm
I don't doubt youve seen new fathers suddenly switch but our experiences seem to have come from two different planets which leaves me feeling pretty useless.

The GQ article had a few points that touched on my experience; I can remember being given a sheet of dos and don'ts as a new student which included not walking behind women at night and, yes, I can remember thinking that was ridiculous and surely way over the top. (Who could I ever intimidate? I was more concerned that I'd get beaten up.) And of course I came to appreciate I had been utterly unaware of women's reality.
ok, I feel like we're coming at it from very different points then. I read it and thought, huh, this is interesting. Fishnut clearly felt similarly, and then highlighted a particular quote she liked. But that doesn't mean that we're expecting every individual man on this forum to have experienced all things in the article. Sometimes things are shared because they are interesting? Or might have something that makes you think, I dunno.
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