Men trying to be feminists: A safer space
Re: Men trying to be feminists: A safer space
I need to draft a full reply to EPD, but currently don't have the mental bandwidth. But very briefly, I am not asking the women here, nor in my personal life, to change how they talk about sexism and their experiences of it. I was commenting on a specific bit of spam from a website that a poster here received which I thought was very poorly worded, using it as an example of how not to get men on board, as it manifestly did not work. I was not intending for it to be interpreted that all women need to work harder, that they should not be angry. The women on this board (and the old place), have been justifiably and obviously blazingly furious and I hope haven't felt the need to modify their words.
So, how to you thing men should be reached? How do you convince them "to do more work"? Because if they aren't convinced it won't spontaneously happen.
My mistake here was to dis the headline rather than engage more directly with individualmember as to what put him off about it.
So, how to you thing men should be reached? How do you convince them "to do more work"? Because if they aren't convinced it won't spontaneously happen.
My mistake here was to dis the headline rather than engage more directly with individualmember as to what put him off about it.
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Re: Men trying to be feminists: A safer space
TBH, my outburst was a ‘last straw which broke the camel’s back’ moment, after a lifetime (well I’m 58 and don’t remember a time before this was central to my being, which feels like a lifetime) of anger about assumptions being made about me on the basis of what you see when you look at me, being particularly concerned about this issue since roughly the early 1990s, the frustration at being powerless to do anything and that seemingly no progress has been made in all these years, all got on top of me and I descended into a dark mental place.
My emotional condition is where this came from, not the article. My exasperation at constantly being told the same things and never being able to move on from it because the moment you try, you get dragged back. Not on this forum, but everywhere else in my life, this forum is the one place of sanity I have and I’m very sorry to have offended anyone.
I’ve never been to a university, it’s twenty years since I worked in an office of any kind, I rarely attend meetings, I know that I project my anger into my assumptions about women and BAME because I assume that they have far more right than I do to be angry about assumptions because the general level of that problem hurts them more than a white man like me. And I’m ashamed of myself for doing it.
It’s not the article, it’s me.
Re: Men trying to be feminists: A safer space
Not offended, just concerned mateindividualmember wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 4:55 pm
My emotional condition is where this came from, not the article. My exasperation at constantly being told the same things and never being able to move on from it because the moment you try, you get dragged back. Not on this forum, but everywhere else in my life, this forum is the one place of sanity I have and I’m very sorry to have offended anyone.
Non fui. Fui. Non sum. Non curo.
Re: Men trying to be feminists: A safer space
Excellent idea!jdc wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 2:41 pmMaybe the cowards among us could take on the job of finding articles to read and post here, and let braver souls kick off the discussion of those pieces.Martin Y wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 2:35 pmThe trouble with having next to nothing you feel you can contribute to a large and wide-ranging discussion but feeling you'd at least like to just to chip in occasionally on some small point or other is that that can look exactly the same as if you were ignoring the entire conversation and just nitpicking some tiny detail. So, memo to myself; maybe don't keep doing that.
it's okay to say "I don't know"
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Re: Men trying to be feminists: A safer space
Thanks.nezumi wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 5:13 pmNot offended, just concerned mateindividualmember wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 4:55 pm
My emotional condition is where this came from, not the article. My exasperation at constantly being told the same things and never being able to move on from it because the moment you try, you get dragged back. Not on this forum, but everywhere else in my life, this forum is the one place of sanity I have and I’m very sorry to have offended anyone.
The white coats and straightjacket can go back in the cupboard for the time being.
Re: Men trying to be feminists: A safer space
Awwwwww but the swing is all strung up....individualmember wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 5:31 pmThanks.nezumi wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 5:13 pmNot offended, just concerned mateindividualmember wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 4:55 pm
My emotional condition is where this came from, not the article. My exasperation at constantly being told the same things and never being able to move on from it because the moment you try, you get dragged back. Not on this forum, but everywhere else in my life, this forum is the one place of sanity I have and I’m very sorry to have offended anyone.
The white coats and straightjacket can go back in the cupboard for the time being.
Non fui. Fui. Non sum. Non curo.
Re: Men trying to be feminists: A safer space
This might be of interest to people here. Hay Festival's book of the month is Male Tears by Benjamin Myers. There's a Q&A with the author on 27th April which is free to attend.
From the acclaimed author of bestseller The Offing comes a debut collection of short stories investigating modern masculinity in all its many and varied forms. Bringing together over fifteen years of work, Benjamin Myers lays bare the male psyche in all its fragility, complexity and failure, its hubris and forbidden tenderness. Farmers, fairground workers and wandering pilgrims, gruesome gamekeepers, bare-knuckle boxers and ex-cons with secret passions, the men that populate these unsettling, wild and wistful stories form a multi-faceted, era-spanning portrait of just what it means to be a man.
it's okay to say "I don't know"
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Re: Men trying to be feminists: A safer space
Can't say anything about Male Tears because I ain't read it, but one of his other books, The Gallows Pole, is fantastic.Fishnut wrote: ↑Thu Apr 01, 2021 1:42 pmThis might be of interest to people here. Hay Festival's book of the month is Male Tears by Benjamin Myers. There's a Q&A with the author on 27th April which is free to attend.
From the acclaimed author of bestseller The Offing comes a debut collection of short stories investigating modern masculinity in all its many and varied forms. Bringing together over fifteen years of work, Benjamin Myers lays bare the male psyche in all its fragility, complexity and failure, its hubris and forbidden tenderness. Farmers, fairground workers and wandering pilgrims, gruesome gamekeepers, bare-knuckle boxers and ex-cons with secret passions, the men that populate these unsettling, wild and wistful stories form a multi-faceted, era-spanning portrait of just what it means to be a man.
To defy the laws of tradition is a crusade only of the brave.
Re: Men trying to be feminists: A safer space
In the spirit of this comment, I'd like to submit this piece. The fact that seemingly nice guys can also be creeps or worse has come up on one of the threads before. I'm posting because I think it provides a good reminder of this.
clicky
A quote:
While the article is about a sports player, I'm pretty sure this applies to many people in our more normal lives.But too often, we – the media – blur those lines. We see players in locker rooms and develop relationships with them in these safe, controlled, contrived spaces. We think we know them. We learn about their lives, their families, their hobbies, and we forget. We forget that we don’t really know them even a little bit, that it’s not our job to automatically give them the benefit of the doubt.
Re: Men trying to be feminists: A safer space
Thank you again to everyone who’s contributed here, I’m listening as I hope others are.
Move-a… side, and let the mango through… let the mango through
Re: Men trying to be feminists: A safer space
Interesting piece. I think there's two elements with those examples. There's the expectation that someone with a 'nice' public persona will be nice in private too (which applies generally as you say) but also there's the halo effect of 'good at x = good person'. The golden boy who can do no wrong.monkey wrote: ↑Thu Apr 01, 2021 3:42 pmIn the spirit of this comment, I'd like to submit this piece. The fact that seemingly nice guys can also be creeps or worse has come up on one of the threads before. I'm posting because I think it provides a good reminder of this.
clicky
A quote:
While the article is about a sports player, I'm pretty sure this applies to many people in our more normal lives.But too often, we – the media – blur those lines. We see players in locker rooms and develop relationships with them in these safe, controlled, contrived spaces. We think we know them. We learn about their lives, their families, their hobbies, and we forget. We forget that we don’t really know them even a little bit, that it’s not our job to automatically give them the benefit of the doubt.
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Re: Men trying to be feminists: A safer space
Working in telly, I’ve met quite a few people who you’d recognise from being on the screen. Enough to say confidently that there’s no way of knowing whether what you see on the screen is anything like what they’re like in real life unless you spend some time with them off screen. Some are like their screen persona, or at least the persona they project is a slightly exaggerated version of themselves, but plenty aren’t (ETA some are much nicer than you imagine, it’s not all terrible people pretending to be nice). And to be fair I’ve had good experience with some and then heard that they are different in different company, n=1 anecdote of course but I’ve seen blokes off the telly be good company as one of a handful of blokes in a pub after work but patronising bastards to women. To be fair I don’t like socialising with the ‘talent’ much and don’t have close friendships with any.