Jews Don't Count

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Tessa K
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Jews Don't Count

Post by Tessa K » Fri Apr 30, 2021 11:28 am

I've started reading David Baddiel's book with this title.

It's about how anti-semitism is often not included in anti-racism and how there's a hierarchy of racism badness with Jewish people at the bottom because they are perceived as a) white and b) wealthy. The alleged whiteness doesn't matter to Nazis, neo-Nazis and other bigots of course.

He also looks at how the far left often put anti-capitalism above anti-semitism because, again, Jews are perceived as being wealthy.

So there's a dual bigotry: Jews are rich and controlling the world as well as being racially 'impure'.

It's rarely about religion and all about race as very few bigots take on Jewish beliefs.

Attacks on Jewish people and places (eg synagogues) rarely get much media coverage unless it's there's a big casualty/death toll despite the fact that attacks are at a record high.
Regarding the nature of the incidents, CST reports that there were 100 cases of assault/extreme violence, 72 of damage and desecration of Jewish property, 1,399 reports of abusive behaviour (including verbal abuse, antisemitic graffiti, antisemitic abuse via social media and one-off hate mail), 85 direct antisemitic threats, and 12 cases of mass-mailed antisemitic leaflets or emails
https://www.statista.com/chart/16928/an ... uk-annual/

I'm only about half way through the book so I'll add to this.

Baddiel and his brother made this two minute film about anti-semitism in football

https://www.haringey.gov.uk/local-democ ... day/y-word

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Re: Jews Don't Count

Post by bjn » Fri Apr 30, 2021 12:28 pm

James O'Brien had David Baddiel on his podcast last year, mostly covering the book.

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/d ... 0487682061

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Re: Jews Don't Count

Post by tom p » Sat May 01, 2021 8:49 am

Tessa K wrote:
Fri Apr 30, 2021 11:28 am
I've started reading David Baddiel's book with this title.

It's about how anti-semitism is often not included in anti-racism and how there's a hierarchy of racism badness with Jewish people at the bottom because they are perceived as a) white and b) wealthy. The alleged whiteness doesn't matter to Nazis, neo-Nazis and other bigots of course.
[snip]
That sounds interesting and like a very valid hypothesis, I'll have a read of that.

Interestingly, sometimes Jewish organisations don't want antisemitism to be seen in the context of wider anti-racism, such as when Jermey Corbyn was asked to condemn antisemitism & he said that he condemned it, like he condemned all racism. Certain Jewish groups were livid that at that.

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Re: Jews Don't Count

Post by Tessa K » Sat May 01, 2021 11:32 am

tom p wrote:
Sat May 01, 2021 8:49 am
Tessa K wrote:
Fri Apr 30, 2021 11:28 am
I've started reading David Baddiel's book with this title.

It's about how anti-semitism is often not included in anti-racism and how there's a hierarchy of racism badness with Jewish people at the bottom because they are perceived as a) white and b) wealthy. The alleged whiteness doesn't matter to Nazis, neo-Nazis and other bigots of course.
[snip]
That sounds interesting and like a very valid hypothesis, I'll have a read of that.

Interestingly, sometimes Jewish organisations don't want antisemitism to be seen in the context of wider anti-racism, such as when Jermey Corbyn was asked to condemn antisemitism & he said that he condemned it, like he condemned all racism. Certain Jewish groups were livid that at that.
I've finished it now (it's not very long). The rest of the book develops the themes I mentioned above, with more examples. It deals with Corbyn well and others on the Left as well as how Jewish people are often left out of diversity claims. For example, claims that Rishi Sunak was the first ethnic minority Chancellor, ignoring Nigel Lawson.

Diversity is often about skin colour (and sometimes but not always gender), especially when there's a public aspect - eg in politics or audiences at events. This ignores invisible minorities such as LGBT, people with hidden disabilities and Jewishness.

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Re: Jews Don't Count

Post by bob sterman » Sat May 01, 2021 5:09 pm

Tessa K wrote:
Sat May 01, 2021 11:32 am
I've finished it now (it's not very long). The rest of the book develops the themes I mentioned above, with more examples. It deals with Corbyn well and others on the Left as well as how Jewish people are often left out of diversity claims. For example, claims that Rishi Sunak was the first ethnic minority Chancellor, ignoring Nigel Lawson.
And ignoring Benjamin Disraeli !

https://www.timesofisrael.com/150-years ... s-forever/

In terms of ethnicity rather than religion (as this is about ethnic minorities) I gather it's a little unclear the extent to which his background was Sephardi vs Ashkenazi. Apparently Disraeli himself liked to emphasise his Sepharic roots.

Then there's George Osborne, although apparently he didn't discover his Jewish ancestry until after he left politics, when he discovered his Hungarian grandmother was Jewish. Presumably Ashenazi.

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Re: Jews Don't Count

Post by bob sterman » Sun May 02, 2021 9:25 am

tom p wrote:
Sat May 01, 2021 8:49 am
Interestingly, sometimes Jewish organisations don't want antisemitism to be seen in the context of wider anti-racism, such as when Jermey Corbyn was asked to condemn antisemitism & he said that he condemned it, like he condemned all racism. Certain Jewish groups were livid that at that.
As Baddiel points out in his book - at certain times it's completely appropriate to focus on particular types of racism - and expect specifc condemnation of that particular form of racism (e.g. the #BlackLivesMatter movement).
Baddiel wrote: ...I think it is the case that there are certain times in history – during the 2020 Black Lives Matter protests, for example – when the fight against racism and discrimination directed towards one particular minority has to be given prominence.
Later drawing attention to the...
Baddiel wrote:...tactic that the right employ when they try to counter the #BlackLivesMatter movement by saying #AllLivesMatter. The sentiment might sound virtuous and true, but really it’s just an attempt to widen the focus of the debate so as to lose the specificity of black concerns.
So, in relation to responses of progressives* to specific allegations of antisemitism in the Labour Party - he suggests that it's not unreasonable to expect a specific response...
Baddiel wrote:"...when [progressives] defend themselves from the charge of turning a blind eye to it. What they tend to say is: we stand against anti-Semitism and all types of racism. As a mantra, this was heard again and again between 2015 and 2019, and continues to be in the ongoing arguments around Corbyn at the time of writing. It sounds good. It sounds right. But to these ears, the reflex need always to follow the phrase anti-Semitism with ‘and all types of racism’ is the left’s All Lives Matter.
* Don't want to divert this thread into what Corbyn himself did or didn't say - Baddiel's book is about people who see themselves as "progressives" in general.

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Re: Jews Don't Count

Post by Tessa K » Sun May 02, 2021 10:53 am

Sometimes it's as if only one ethnic minority is allowed in the spotlight at any one time, as if it's a competition for who gets to have their rights and lives respected and protected. It's a kind of divide and rule white racist position.

Someone I know whose family are of Asian origins said that Asian people often get less attention from 'progressives'. In America it seems to be OK to make jokes about people from the subcontinent because there's not the colonial history we have here and they're perceived as well-off and educated rather than poor and uneducated (eg the stereotype of the Indian tech nerd or the shopkeeper in The Simpsons).

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Re: Jews Don't Count

Post by bob sterman » Sun May 02, 2021 11:30 am

Tessa K wrote:
Sun May 02, 2021 10:53 am
Sometimes it's as if only one ethnic minority is allowed in the spotlight at any one time, as if it's a competition for who gets to have their rights and lives respected and protected. It's a kind of divide and rule white racist position.

Someone I know whose family are of Asian origins said that Asian people often get less attention from 'progressives'. In America it seems to be OK to make jokes about people from the subcontinent because there's not the colonial history we have here and they're perceived as well-off and educated rather than poor and uneducated (eg the stereotype of the Indian tech nerd or the shopkeeper in The Simpsons).
There may be some important parallels between the experiences of Asians and those of Jewish people highlighted by Baddiel. He makes some interesting observations about the behaviour of "progressives" who see themselves as anti-racist - but, he suggests, often seem to see a "hierarchy of racisms". And that many, while not being directly antisemitic, have something of a blind spot when it comes to antisemitism.

He suggests you can see this hierarchy in play when we look at progressive concern about what sort of actors get to play minority parts in TV/movie/theatre productions.

Huge and justifiable outrage over some examples (e.g "blackface"), some outrage over others (e.g. Hank Azaria playing Apu in The Simpsons, Alison Brie playing Diane Nguyen in Bojack Horseman). But hardly a murmur when non-Jewish actors play Jewish characters - using stereotypically Jewish mannerisms.

Baddiel gives a compelling example - Ben Kingsley has received a truck-load of criticism for darkening his skin to play Gandhi - despite being half-Indian himself!! A performance that is now considered "problematic". But his performance as Itzhak Stern in Schindler’s List, is not even considered slightly "problematic" - despite not being Jewish.

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Re: Jews Don't Count

Post by individualmember » Sun May 02, 2021 11:54 am

I have an Audible credit.... I think I’ll spend it on the audiobook version of Baddiel’s book.

To be honest, it’s not something I’m very aware of. Maybe it’s because it is somewhat hidden, I’ve certainly worked with people who I never realised are Jewish until it came up in conversation, perhaps after weeks of working together. Plus, I grew up in a VERY homogeneous white area so I wasn’t exposed to overt racism when I was young, even though as I have got older I’ve become aware of how horribly racist a lot of people around there actually are (they just didn’t have the opportunity to demonstrate it when I was young).

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Re: Jews Don't Count

Post by individualmember » Sun May 02, 2021 12:01 pm

individualmember wrote:
Sun May 02, 2021 11:54 am
I have an Audible credit.... I think I’ll spend it on the audiobook version of Baddiel’s book.
Ah, it’s only £5.24 today so bought for money, I’ll save the credit for something more expensive.

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Re: Jews Don't Count

Post by Tessa K » Sun May 02, 2021 12:06 pm

individualmember wrote:
Sun May 02, 2021 11:54 am
I have an Audible credit.... I think I’ll spend it on the audiobook version of Baddiel’s book.

To be honest, it’s not something I’m very aware of. Maybe it’s because it is somewhat hidden, I’ve certainly worked with people who I never realised are Jewish until it came up in conversation, perhaps after weeks of working together. Plus, I grew up in a VERY homogeneous white area so I wasn’t exposed to overt racism when I was young, even though as I have got older I’ve become aware of how horribly racist a lot of people around there actually are (they just didn’t have the opportunity to demonstrate it when I was young).
I had no idea my great grandmother was from a London Jewish family (Sephardic) until I started family tree research about 15 years ago as it was never ever mentioned. My Dad told me not to do it as 'you never know what you might find' so he obviously knew. I didn't tell him what I found because he was such a nasty old control freak and generally racist, it wouldn't have gone well for me.

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Re: Jews Don't Count

Post by tom p » Mon May 03, 2021 1:44 pm

bob sterman wrote:
Sun May 02, 2021 9:25 am
tom p wrote:
Sat May 01, 2021 8:49 am
Interestingly, sometimes Jewish organisations don't want antisemitism to be seen in the context of wider anti-racism, such as when Jermey Corbyn was asked to condemn antisemitism & he said that he condemned it, like he condemned all racism. Certain Jewish groups were livid that at that.
As Baddiel points out in his book - at certain times it's completely appropriate to focus on particular types of racism - and expect specifc condemnation of that particular form of racism (e.g. the #BlackLivesMatter movement).
Baddiel wrote: ...I think it is the case that there are certain times in history – during the 2020 Black Lives Matter protests, for example – when the fight against racism and discrimination directed towards one particular minority has to be given prominence.
Later drawing attention to the...
Baddiel wrote:...tactic that the right employ when they try to counter the #BlackLivesMatter movement by saying #AllLivesMatter. The sentiment might sound virtuous and true, but really it’s just an attempt to widen the focus of the debate so as to lose the specificity of black concerns.
So, in relation to responses of progressives* to specific allegations of antisemitism in the Labour Party - he suggests that it's not unreasonable to expect a specific response...
Baddiel wrote:"...when [progressives] defend themselves from the charge of turning a blind eye to it. What they tend to say is: we stand against anti-Semitism and all types of racism. As a mantra, this was heard again and again between 2015 and 2019, and continues to be in the ongoing arguments around Corbyn at the time of writing. It sounds good. It sounds right. But to these ears, the reflex need always to follow the phrase anti-Semitism with ‘and all types of racism’ is the left’s All Lives Matter.
* Don't want to divert this thread into what Corbyn himself did or didn't say - Baddiel's book is about people who see themselves as "progressives" in general.
That's an interesting and valid point.

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Re: Jews Don't Count

Post by tom p » Mon May 03, 2021 1:50 pm

bob sterman wrote:
Sun May 02, 2021 11:30 am
Tessa K wrote:
Sun May 02, 2021 10:53 am
Sometimes it's as if only one ethnic minority is allowed in the spotlight at any one time, as if it's a competition for who gets to have their rights and lives respected and protected. It's a kind of divide and rule white racist position.

Someone I know whose family are of Asian origins said that Asian people often get less attention from 'progressives'. In America it seems to be OK to make jokes about people from the subcontinent because there's not the colonial history we have here and they're perceived as well-off and educated rather than poor and uneducated (eg the stereotype of the Indian tech nerd or the shopkeeper in The Simpsons).
There may be some important parallels between the experiences of Asians and those of Jewish people highlighted by Baddiel. He makes some interesting observations about the behaviour of "progressives" who see themselves as anti-racist - but, he suggests, often seem to see a "hierarchy of racisms". And that many, while not being directly antisemitic, have something of a blind spot when it comes to antisemitism.

He suggests you can see this hierarchy in play when we look at progressive concern about what sort of actors get to play minority parts in TV/movie/theatre productions.

Huge and justifiable outrage over some examples (e.g "blackface"), some outrage over others (e.g. Hank Azaria playing Apu in The Simpsons, Alison Brie playing Diane Nguyen in Bojack Horseman). But hardly a murmur when non-Jewish actors play Jewish characters - using stereotypically Jewish mannerisms.

Baddiel gives a compelling example - Ben Kingsley has received a truck-load of criticism for darkening his skin to play Gandhi - despite being half-Indian himself!! A performance that is now considered "problematic". But his performance as Itzhak Stern in Schindler’s List, is not even considered slightly "problematic" - despite not being Jewish.
I suppose that if one were to object to gentile actors playing jewish characters, then the converse would also be objectionable & there are plenty of jewish actors who have played gentile characters in hollywood history.

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Re: Jews Don't Count

Post by nekomatic » Mon May 03, 2021 4:29 pm

tom p wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 1:50 pm
I suppose that if one were to object to gentile actors playing jewish characters, then the converse would also be objectionable
Minority groups that have historically been oppressed get to have a say in how they are described and portrayed by the majority. The majority don’t get the exact reciprocal right because not being historically oppressed in the same way, they don’t need it. That’s a fairly well established principle and I’m surprised you’re not familiar with it.

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Re: Jews Don't Count

Post by headshot » Mon May 03, 2021 4:57 pm

Regarding the thread title. Not one of The Cure's best...

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Re: Jews Don't Count

Post by bmforre » Tue May 04, 2021 6:24 am

headshot wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 4:57 pm
Regarding the thread title. Not one of The Cure's best...
There is a story about Albert Einstein playing music with a famous virtuoso. When Einstein strayed from the agreed-upon rhytm the prof player asked in frustration: 'Albert, Albert, can you not count?'

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Re: Jews Don't Count

Post by noggins » Tue May 04, 2021 9:19 am

Surely the issue with acting is the reciprocity of opportunity. A jewish actor can play a gentile and vice versa. But Scarlett Johansen playing Major doesnt open up “White” roles to Asians.

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Re: Jews Don't Count

Post by Martin Y » Tue May 04, 2021 9:51 am

bob sterman wrote:
Sun May 02, 2021 11:30 am
... Baddiel gives a compelling example - Ben Kingsley has received a truck-load of criticism for darkening his skin to play Gandhi - despite being half-Indian himself!! A performance that is now considered "problematic". But his performance as Itzhak Stern in Schindler’s List, is not even considered slightly "problematic" - despite not being Jewish.
Gonna put my hand up here and admit I didn't know (or more likely had forgotten over the years) that Ben Kingsley was half Indian, and also that I had just assumed he was Jewish. Schindler's List isn't his only specifically Jewish role, but on reflection it wouldn't surprise me if he was cast because of Schindler's List.

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Re: Jews Don't Count

Post by Woodchopper » Tue May 04, 2021 10:41 am

Martin Y wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 9:51 am
bob sterman wrote:
Sun May 02, 2021 11:30 am
... Baddiel gives a compelling example - Ben Kingsley has received a truck-load of criticism for darkening his skin to play Gandhi - despite being half-Indian himself!! A performance that is now considered "problematic". But his performance as Itzhak Stern in Schindler’s List, is not even considered slightly "problematic" - despite not being Jewish.
Gonna put my hand up here and admit I didn't know (or more likely had forgotten over the years) that Ben Kingsley was half Indian.
He was born Krishna Pandit Bhanji and changed his name in order to have a better chance of getting acting roles.

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Re: Jews Don't Count

Post by Tessa K » Tue May 04, 2021 11:08 am

nekomatic wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 4:29 pm
tom p wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 1:50 pm
I suppose that if one were to object to gentile actors playing jewish characters, then the converse would also be objectionable
Minority groups that have historically been oppressed get to have a say in how they are described and portrayed by the majority. The majority don’t get the exact reciprocal right because not being historically oppressed in the same way, they don’t need it. That’s a fairly well established principle and I’m surprised you’re not familiar with it.
His objection was more that non-Jewish actors often play Jewish characters in a stereotyped, cliched 'Jewish' oy vey alright already way. It's always been the Hollywood norm for anyone of brownish skin, even Mediterranean, to be cast as any non-white ethnicity, Ben Kingsley and Al Pacino are just two examples.

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Re: Jews Don't Count

Post by philbo » Tue May 04, 2021 12:37 pm

Tessa K wrote:
Fri Apr 30, 2021 11:28 am
He also looks at how the far left often put anti-capitalism above anti-semitism because, again, Jews are perceived as being wealthy.
This is something I have talked about not a few times over the past few years: an awful lot of what might be described as the "antisemitic Left" really don't think that what they're coming out with are anti-semitic tropes... they think they're being anti-capitalist/anti-rich (and half the time somewhat ironically describe themselves as "Marxist"), and even when it is explained in simple terms why what they've said is antisemitic, seem completely incapable of taking it on board.

The
bob sterman wrote:
Sun May 02, 2021 9:25 am
Baddiel wrote:"...when [progressives] defend themselves from the charge of turning a blind eye to it. What they tend to say is: we stand against anti-Semitism and all types of racism. As a mantra, this was heard again and again between 2015 and 2019, and continues to be in the ongoing arguments around Corbyn at the time of writing. It sounds good. It sounds right. But to these ears, the reflex need always to follow the phrase anti-Semitism with ‘and all types of racism’ is the left’s All Lives Matter.
This made me think "d'oh! Why didn't I think that?" as it seemed so bl..dy obvious once it had been pointed out :-/

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Re: Jews Don't Count

Post by Martin Y » Tue May 04, 2021 12:57 pm

philbo wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 12:37 pm
bob sterman wrote:
Sun May 02, 2021 9:25 am
Baddiel wrote:"... to these ears, the reflex need always to follow the phrase anti-Semitism with ‘and all types of racism’ is the left’s All Lives Matter.
This made me think "d'oh! Why didn't I think that?" as it seemed so bl..dy obvious once it had been pointed out :-/
I had a real lightbulb moment too. Yes. It's exactly the thing that I could feel was wrong with "and all types of racism" but just couldn't quite put my finger on. It's diluting the disapproval so widely that it shuts down and avoids any consideration of what the particular thing is that the speaker has been invited to condemn.

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Re: Jews Don't Count

Post by Tessa K » Tue May 04, 2021 3:31 pm

Martin Y wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 12:57 pm
philbo wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 12:37 pm
bob sterman wrote:
Sun May 02, 2021 9:25 am
This made me think "d'oh! Why didn't I think that?" as it seemed so bl..dy obvious once it had been pointed out :-/
I had a real lightbulb moment too. Yes. It's exactly the thing that I could feel was wrong with "and all types of racism" but just couldn't quite put my finger on. It's diluting the disapproval so widely that it shuts down and avoids any consideration of what the particular thing is that the speaker has been invited to condemn.
If it had read 'anti-Semitism and all other types of racism' it would have been a very different message.

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Re: Jews Don't Count

Post by individualmember » Tue May 04, 2021 6:42 pm

I wonder about this: when I see people uttering (usually posting on basefook) conspiracy theories that involve George Soros, I invariably read the mention of Soros as a huge red flag that it’s based in antisemitism. Often I’ll mention this but usually get some argument. I’m not entirely sure that I’m right every time but... what’s the hivemind’s view?

ETA, this isn’t exclusively from people who identify as being on the left. It comes from a section of the right as well.

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Re: Jews Don't Count

Post by jimbob » Tue May 04, 2021 8:20 pm

individualmember wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 6:42 pm
I wonder about this: when I see people uttering (usually posting on basefook) conspiracy theories that involve George Soros, I invariably read the mention of Soros as a huge red flag that it’s based in antisemitism. Often I’ll mention this but usually get some argument. I’m not entirely sure that I’m right every time but... what’s the hivemind’s view?

ETA, this isn’t exclusively from people who identify as being on the left. It comes from a section of the right as well.

I've yet to see a George Soros conspiracy theorist who doesn't also invoke the antisemitic tropes that would have been applied to the Rothschilds
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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