Havana syndrome

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Bird on a Fire
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Re: Havana syndrome

Post by Bird on a Fire » Thu Jun 03, 2021 9:05 pm

jimbob wrote:
Thu Jun 03, 2021 5:58 pm
Martin Y wrote:
Thu Jun 03, 2021 9:39 am
I must say, my gut feeling still has this case firmly filed on the same shelf as flying saucers. Mentions of some interesting physics which might enable it or hints that the basic technology to do something a bit like it exist somewhere or that the Russians are working on their own version seem remarkably familiar. Although I have a slightly higher expectation in this instance of an eventual revelation that changes my view, that's "higher" than a very, very low thing.
Likewise,

I guess diplomatic staff should only have heavily-vetted electronics, but issued phones or computers in their rooms (which are in their embassy and thus their national territory) would probably mess up any standing waves etc for focussed beams to work. To say nothing about how one would aim such devices at presumably someone's head.
This is the proven, public-knowledge tech: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MEDUSA_(weapon)

They use it for crowd control so presumably you don't have to be that accurate.
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Re: Havana syndrome

Post by dyqik » Thu Jun 03, 2021 10:06 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Thu Jun 03, 2021 9:05 pm
jimbob wrote:
Thu Jun 03, 2021 5:58 pm
Martin Y wrote:
Thu Jun 03, 2021 9:39 am
I must say, my gut feeling still has this case firmly filed on the same shelf as flying saucers. Mentions of some interesting physics which might enable it or hints that the basic technology to do something a bit like it exist somewhere or that the Russians are working on their own version seem remarkably familiar. Although I have a slightly higher expectation in this instance of an eventual revelation that changes my view, that's "higher" than a very, very low thing.
Likewise,

I guess diplomatic staff should only have heavily-vetted electronics, but issued phones or computers in their rooms (which are in their embassy and thus their national territory) would probably mess up any standing waves etc for focussed beams to work. To say nothing about how one would aim such devices at presumably someone's head.
This is the proven, public-knowledge tech: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MEDUSA_(weapon)

They use it for crowd control so presumably you don't have to be that accurate.
Or secretive.

And this is a case where a tinfoil hat would actually be useful.

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Re: Havana syndrome

Post by jimbob » Fri Jun 04, 2021 11:08 am

dyqik wrote:
Thu Jun 03, 2021 10:06 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Thu Jun 03, 2021 9:05 pm
jimbob wrote:
Thu Jun 03, 2021 5:58 pm


Likewise,

I guess diplomatic staff should only have heavily-vetted electronics, but issued phones or computers in their rooms (which are in their embassy and thus their national territory) would probably mess up any standing waves etc for focussed beams to work. To say nothing about how one would aim such devices at presumably someone's head.
This is the proven, public-knowledge tech: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MEDUSA_(weapon)

They use it for crowd control so presumably you don't have to be that accurate.
Or secretive.

And this is a case where a tinfoil hat would actually be useful.
The secretive bit is what I was thinking about. I suspect that arcing might even be visible in jewellery - let alone any effect on the electronics in the room.
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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Re: Havana syndrome

Post by bmforre » Fri Jun 04, 2021 7:01 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Thu Jun 03, 2021 9:05 pm
This is the proven, public-knowledge tech: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MEDUSA_(weapon)

They use it for crowd control so presumably you don't have to be that accurate.
Last year there were a number of issues with need for crowd control in the US. Why did they use the traditional methods if they had some MEDUSA ready to launch at Ferocious AntiFa?

And BTW i found absolutely nothing on tech in that link. Just marketing magic.

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Re: Havana syndrome

Post by basementer » Fri Jun 04, 2021 8:11 pm

bmforre wrote:
Fri Jun 04, 2021 7:01 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Thu Jun 03, 2021 9:05 pm
This is the proven, public-knowledge tech: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MEDUSA_(weapon)

They use it for crowd control so presumably you don't have to be that accurate.
Last year there were a number of issues with need for crowd control in the US. Why did they use the traditional methods if they had some MEDUSA ready to launch at Ferocious AntiFa?

And BTW i found absolutely nothing on tech in that link. Just marketing magic.
Wikipedia's first link is a document which appears to record someone being paid $99,965 for a six month proof-of-concept study. The summary statement claims that it produced microwave auditory effects but not whether they were incapacitating or at what range.
From this we can conclude the scientific fact that someone was able to sign off projects costing up to $100,000.
Money is just a substitute for luck anyway. - Tom Siddell

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Re: Havana syndrome

Post by dyqik » Fri Jun 04, 2021 9:01 pm

basementer wrote:
Fri Jun 04, 2021 8:11 pm
bmforre wrote:
Fri Jun 04, 2021 7:01 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Thu Jun 03, 2021 9:05 pm
This is the proven, public-knowledge tech: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MEDUSA_(weapon)

They use it for crowd control so presumably you don't have to be that accurate.
Last year there were a number of issues with need for crowd control in the US. Why did they use the traditional methods if they had some MEDUSA ready to launch at Ferocious AntiFa?

And BTW i found absolutely nothing on tech in that link. Just marketing magic.
Wikipedia's first link is a document which appears to record someone being paid $99,965 for a six month proof-of-concept study. The summary statement claims that it produced microwave auditory effects but not whether they were incapacitating or at what range.
From this we can conclude the scientific fact that someone was able to sign off projects costing up to $100,000.
Hmmm. *looks at my 3 (and counting) $100k R&D projects that got signed off as completed without even producing a substantial report*

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Re: Havana syndrome

Post by Woodchopper » Sat Jun 05, 2021 10:56 am

I'm procrastinating, so here's some pages from this book, which seem relevant.
Micro 1.jpg
Micro 1.jpg (367.68 KiB) Viewed 433 times
Micro 2.jpg
Micro 2.jpg (330.29 KiB) Viewed 433 times
Micro 3.jpg
Micro 3.jpg (404.87 KiB) Viewed 433 times

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Re: Havana syndrome

Post by jimbob » Sat Jun 05, 2021 12:25 pm

Woodchopper wrote:
Sat Jun 05, 2021 10:56 am
I'm procrastinating, so here's some pages from this book, which seem relevant.

Micro 1.jpg
Micro 2.jpg
Micro 3.jpg
I can believe those are all possible. What I struggle to believe is that they could be targeted at someone *covertly* if they have normal personal electronics nearby. Especially if it is supposedly targeting them whilst they're in their own embassy.
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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Re: Havana syndrome

Post by Bird on a Fire » Sat Jun 05, 2021 12:59 pm

Thanks Woodchopper. I remember reading some better articles than that wiki page when I went through the report last year.

Like jimbob says, the general circumstances of the claimed use of the technology seems much more far fetched than its existence. Why target an embassy full of random staffers? (Unless there was a main target, and the others were collateral, or unless the US had done something similar first)

IIRC the official report doesn't make much mention of personal electronics. Do we know none were affected?
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Re: Havana syndrome

Post by Woodchopper » Sat Jun 05, 2021 1:41 pm

jimbob wrote:
Sat Jun 05, 2021 12:25 pm
Woodchopper wrote:
Sat Jun 05, 2021 10:56 am
I'm procrastinating, so here's some pages from this book, which seem relevant.

Micro 1.jpg
Micro 2.jpg
Micro 3.jpg
I can believe those are all possible. What I struggle to believe is that they could be targeted at someone *covertly* if they have normal personal electronics nearby. Especially if it is supposedly targeting them whilst they're in their own embassy.
They don't appear to have experienced the phenomena in their embassy though. According to this summary, the first diplomats to be affected in Cuba experienced noise, headaches etc in their homes or in hotel rooms. That might make it more possible to install equipment nearby (especially in an authoritarian country like Cuba). Though of course the same would apply to other means like poisoning.

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Re: Havana syndrome

Post by bmforre » Sat Jun 26, 2021 3:55 am

'X-Files' creator believes.
From his opinion piece in the NYTimes:
Do I believe in conspiracies? Certainly. I believe, for example, that someone is targeting C.I.A. agents and White House officials with microwave radiation, the so-called Havana syndrome, and your government denied it.
Who do I choose to believe with? - this X-author or every colleague whose understanding of electromagnetic radiation propagation I take seriously?

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Re: Havana syndrome

Post by Woodchopper » Sat Jun 26, 2021 10:57 am


bmforre
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Re: Havana syndrome

Post by bmforre » Mon Jul 05, 2021 9:55 am

From thread on implanted pacemaker started by shpalman on this subforum:
(I wrote)
Note observed range for this electromagnetic coupling to work:
The researchers also demonstrated in vivo pacing in an adult dog during open-chest surgery. They recorded a maximum pacing distance (between skin and transmission coil) of 17 cm, validating the pacemaker’s capability for long-range wireless energy transfer. These findings suggest that the device can achieve the necessary power transfer for operation in adult human patients.
From Shpalman link.

Now compare this with area coverage claimed for the Havana etc. ill feeling.

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Re: Havana syndrome

Post by Bird on a Fire » Mon Jul 05, 2021 10:09 am

Well it's a completely different mechanism, but yes I do suspect you're correct that any EMF weapons would have to be larger and more powerful than a pacemaker, good point.
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Re: Havana syndrome

Post by Woodchopper » Mon Jul 05, 2021 10:14 am

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Mon Jul 05, 2021 10:09 am
Well it's a completely different mechanism, but yes I do suspect you're correct that any EMF weapons would have to be larger and more powerful than a pacemaker, good point.
Yes, indeed. This experimental microwave weapon is designed to shoot down small drone aircraft, and its mounted on a shipping container.

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Re: Havana syndrome

Post by dyqik » Tue Jul 06, 2021 1:12 pm

Woodchopper wrote:
Mon Jul 05, 2021 10:14 am
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Mon Jul 05, 2021 10:09 am
Well it's a completely different mechanism, but yes I do suspect you're correct that any EMF weapons would have to be larger and more powerful than a pacemaker, good point.
Yes, indeed. This experimental microwave weapon is designed to shoot down small drone aircraft, and its mounted on a shipping container.
That only works because drones have sensitive microwave electronics onboard that can be jammed and disrupted. It's not at all relevant to this thread.

The pacemaker works at 17cm distance because it has a resonant antenna to receive the power. Remove that antenna, and the range would be ~1mm at best.

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Re: Havana syndrome

Post by shpalman » Sun Jul 18, 2021 6:53 am

molto tricky

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Re: Havana syndrome

Post by Gfamily » Sun Jul 18, 2021 7:09 am

My avatar was a scientific result that was later found to be 'mistaken' - I rarely claim to be 100% correct
ETA 5/8/20: I've been advised that the result was correct, it was the initial interpretation that needed to be withdrawn
Meta? I'd say so!

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Re: Havana syndrome

Post by Bird on a Fire » Sun Jul 18, 2021 9:48 am

He has the grace of a swan, the wisdom of an owl, and the eye of an eagle—ladies and gentlemen, this man is for the birds!

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Re: Havana syndrome

Post by Martin Y » Sun Jul 18, 2021 9:59 am

They have haunting notes and pizzicato strings.

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Re: Havana syndrome

Post by Bird on a Fire » Sun Jul 18, 2021 11:47 am

It's pretty weird, this. Could US diplomats just be super unhealthy?
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Re: Havana syndrome

Post by Martin Y » Sun Jul 18, 2021 12:01 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Sun Jul 18, 2021 11:47 am
It's pretty weird, this. Could US diplomats just be super unhealthy?
Overstressed, quite possibly.

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Re: Havana syndrome

Post by jimbob » Sun Jul 18, 2021 12:22 pm

dyqik wrote:
Tue Jul 06, 2021 1:12 pm
Woodchopper wrote:
Mon Jul 05, 2021 10:14 am
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Mon Jul 05, 2021 10:09 am
Well it's a completely different mechanism, but yes I do suspect you're correct that any EMF weapons would have to be larger and more powerful than a pacemaker, good point.
Yes, indeed. This experimental microwave weapon is designed to shoot down small drone aircraft, and its mounted on a shipping container.
That only works because drones have sensitive microwave electronics onboard that can be jammed and disrupted. It's not at all relevant to this thread.

The pacemaker works at 17cm distance because it has a resonant antenna to receive the power. Remove that antenna, and the range would be ~1mm at best.
Indeed, but I guess that the diplomats would also have sensitive personal electronics - even if they could be more shielded than standard civilian electronics. To expand on your point - it is really hard to imagine some RF attack that manages to subtly harm a human whilst not causing glitches at least, or possibly permanent damage, in electronics that's not specifically designed to withstand it.
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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Re: Havana syndrome

Post by Bird on a Fire » Sun Jul 18, 2021 12:25 pm

As far as I can tell nobody has confirmed one way or the other if there were electronic glitches.
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Re: Havana syndrome

Post by Bird on a Fire » Sun Jul 18, 2021 12:30 pm

But also, don't forget that the proposed mechanism is pulsed/modulated RF, which means far lower energy levels can be used apparently.
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