Because the only reason that the industries are dying is because they're being stifled by years of mismanagement and dumb Government policy. The big advantage with the broader engineering industries is huge diversity of people they can employ, if you take the aerospace industry for example they employ some of the best material scientists in the world and still have room for meaningful employment for the barely literate. The service sector in it's broadest terms (not just finance) can only do the same if there are people to serve. And how many bankers do we need?
Brexit Consequences
- veravista
- Catbabel
- Posts: 692
- Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 7:29 pm
- Location: Directly above the centre of the earth
Re: Brexit Consequences
- Woodchopper
- Princess POW
- Posts: 7144
- Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2019 9:05 am
Re: Brexit Consequences
You could say the same about the service sector, which covers everything from writing software to making TV programs. A lot of the profits from the aerospace sector come from selling services - eg maintenance and training packages and licensing intellectual property. The same applies to much of the rest of manufacturing.veravista wrote: ↑Tue Jul 06, 2021 4:57 pmBecause the only reason that the industries are dying is because they're being stifled by years of mismanagement and dumb Government policy. The big advantage with the broader engineering industries is huge diversity of people they can employ, if you take the aerospace industry for example they employ some of the best material scientists in the world and still have room for meaningful employment for the barely literate. The service sector in it's broadest terms (not just finance) can only do the same if there are people to serve. And how many bankers do we need?
It’s a very good idea to have a diversified economy with a healthy manufacturing. But services and manufacturing are closely linked and one sector isn’t inherently better or worse than the other.
Re: Brexit Consequences
Engineering does pretty well in northern Italy despite it suffering from Italian government. So possibly crap government is not the main problem.veravista wrote: ↑Tue Jul 06, 2021 4:57 pmBecause the only reason that the industries are dying is because they're being stifled by years of mismanagement and dumb Government policy. The big advantage with the broader engineering industries is huge diversity of people they can employ, if you take the aerospace industry for example they employ some of the best material scientists in the world and still have room for meaningful employment for the barely literate. The service sector in it's broadest terms (not just finance) can only do the same if there are people to serve. And how many bankers do we need?
We have many more bankers than we need for our own purposes, because we are serving an international market. It is a common suggestion by serious economists that the financial services sector in Britain sucks up a lot of talent that might otherwise be available for other businesses in countries that don't have such a large and dominant and well-paid financial services sector. As Woodchopper says, no just engineering, but everything else. But let's take engineering as an example.
As Veravista suggests, there are world-class engineers available to British companies. Though crap engineering has also been a peristent problem in British industry, as anyone who owned a Morris Marina well knows. So perhaps there aren't enough good engineers available, even if we have quite a few of he best. But successful engineering businesses also need top-class management, and that may well be a key skill that is insufficiently available because it is sucked up by financial services. What ultimately ruined GEC was George Simpson, ie, management.
A common problem in Britain is that we come up with great innovations, but others make money out of them. Especially those that are destined for large scale development, and thus make most money, are taken to other countries to do that, because those other places have better conditions to achieve that. This has been going on for so long that it's a bit chicken and egg to try and solve it.
Re: Brexit Consequences
This is germane. To maintain the status quo we're going to need to open up immigration to others, if EU free movement is a thing of the past. Or our moaning millennials are going to have to develop the kind of work ethic their grandparents never had to bother with.
https://twitter.com/sarahoconnor_/statu ... 7631702016
https://twitter.com/sarahoconnor_/statu ... 7631702016
- veravista
- Catbabel
- Posts: 692
- Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 7:29 pm
- Location: Directly above the centre of the earth
Re: Brexit Consequences
Nothingtodowithbrexit, nothingtodowithbrexit
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/ ... r-shortage
Increase lorry driver hours 'to allow slightly longer' journeys. No time specified. What could possibly go wrong?
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/ ... r-shortage
Increase lorry driver hours 'to allow slightly longer' journeys. No time specified. What could possibly go wrong?
- Brightonian
- Dorkwood
- Posts: 1447
- Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:16 pm
- Location: Usually UK, often France and Ireland
Re: Brexit Consequences
UK has to pay EU €47.5 bn divorce settlement, rather more than anticipated: https://amp.rte.ie/amp/1233943/
-
- After Pie
- Posts: 1621
- Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2020 4:02 am
Re: Brexit Consequences
From https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... in-england Laura Salt of Steve Fellows Road Haulage Services in Branston, Staffordshire is quoted:veravista wrote: ↑Thu Jul 08, 2021 12:16 pmNothingtodowithbrexit, nothingtodowithbrexit
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/ ... r-shortage
Increase lorry driver hours 'to allow slightly longer' journeys. No time specified. What could possibly go wrong?
She isn’t impressed by proposals from the transport secretary, Grant Shapps, to extend drivers’ hours to tackle the shortage. “They work hard enough as it is, up to a 15-hour day, so extending their hours won’t solve it. They’re only human.”
- Bird on a Fire
- Princess POW
- Posts: 10142
- Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:05 pm
- Location: Portugal
Re: Brexit Consequences
Something tells me that "relaxed" worker protections will be a permanent feature of brexit Britain.
We have the right to a clean, healthy, sustainable environment.
- Little waster
- After Pie
- Posts: 2385
- Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2019 12:35 am
- Location: About 1 inch behind my eyes
Re: Brexit Consequences
I’m pretty sure that was on the bus too; right between “reignite the Troubles” and “increase imports of novel variant respiratory viruses”.Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑Fri Jul 09, 2021 12:36 amSomething tells me that "relaxed" worker protections will be a permanent feature of brexit Britain.
Just don’t let the traitorous Remoaner scum ever suggest that WE THE PEOPLE were ever less than 100% absolutely certain about what we were voting for.
This place is not a place of honor, no highly esteemed deed is commemorated here, nothing valued is here.
What is here was dangerous and repulsive to us.
This place is best shunned and left uninhabited.
What is here was dangerous and repulsive to us.
This place is best shunned and left uninhabited.
Re: Brexit Consequences
It's actually only about £1bn more than the upper range of the previous estimate. About a 2.6% increase.Brightonian wrote: ↑Thu Jul 08, 2021 6:43 pmUK has to pay EU €47.5 bn divorce settlement, rather more than anticipated: https://amp.rte.ie/amp/1233943/
Re: Brexit Consequences
Also "has to pay" as opposed to "would like them to pay"? I think there's still likely more haggling to be had.tom p wrote: ↑Fri Jul 09, 2021 8:42 amIt's actually only about £1bn more than the upper range of the previous estimate. About a 2.6% increase.Brightonian wrote: ↑Thu Jul 08, 2021 6:43 pmUK has to pay EU €47.5 bn divorce settlement, rather more than anticipated: https://amp.rte.ie/amp/1233943/
- veravista
- Catbabel
- Posts: 692
- Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 7:29 pm
- Location: Directly above the centre of the earth
Re: Brexit Consequences
It's in the accounts as a debt owing, will not have to be paid in one lump and is as agreed (again) by UK Gov. It may go up or down depending on various factors but the calculated amount (for now) was that that was agreed by both parties to be owing - which part of that do you not understand?
How far do you think the UK can push before the EU get serious - or rather as a 3rd country it is now entirely feasible that the individual member states can start getting arsey about it, no need for them to agree EU wide sanctions anymore, they can all gob on us individually from now on.
How far do you think the UK can push before the EU get serious - or rather as a 3rd country it is now entirely feasible that the individual member states can start getting arsey about it, no need for them to agree EU wide sanctions anymore, they can all gob on us individually from now on.
Re: Brexit Consequences
Exactly.veravista wrote: ↑Mon Jul 05, 2021 12:36 pmWrong. How many times does it need saying? There is a border, negotiated and agreed by both the EU and UK. It's between the UK mainland and the island which contains Northern Ireland. Want to renegotiate that? Go back to the table and start talking and stop whining.plodder wrote: ↑Mon Jul 05, 2021 11:55 amYes, Frost is essentially admitting that the UK has behaved like complete c.nts and they will continue to do so. But now what? A softer border is still the only realistic outcome. This is a negotiation, it's normal for people to act like a..eholes when their back is against the wall.cvb wrote: ↑Mon Jul 05, 2021 10:16 amIt's almost as if the UK Governemt do not want to abide by the rules that they themselves negotiated because it does not suit them. The situation has not changed. The border has to be f.cking somewhere. Unless it is a reverse Schrodinger's border that is both not is the Irish sea and not on the isle of Ireland at the same f.cking time.
eta As pointed out above. This was known at the time they agreed this. f.cking c.nts.
The Single Market needs an external border.
There cannot be a significant border on the island of Ireland
The border has to either be in the Irish Sea, or the UK needs to effectively be in the Single Market
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation
Re: Brexit Consequences
If it ‘has’ to be those things, absolutely ‘has’ to, how come it isn’t like that right now?
Re: Brexit Consequences
Because putting a border between Ireland and Northern Ireland would inflame tensions, and putting the border in the Irish Sea would be political suicide.
"My interest is in the future, because I'm going to spend the rest of my life there"
- veravista
- Catbabel
- Posts: 692
- Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 7:29 pm
- Location: Directly above the centre of the earth
Re: Brexit Consequences
It 'is ' like that at the moment. just as it is between the UK and France. The fact that it's porous is UK Govs choosing and they have been granted grace periods for various goods - most which are ending in a couple of months. Try ordering something on line from Ireland NI or France - the red tape and delays are identical.
Re: Brexit Consequences
Then by definition, it doesn’t ‘have’ to be one of the two options, because it isn’t one of the two options.
Re: Brexit Consequences
You need a passport to cross the border, do you? There are checkpoints with big queues?veravista wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 7:51 amIt 'is ' like that at the moment. just as it is between the UK and France. The fact that it's porous is UK Govs choosing and they have been granted grace periods for various goods - most which are ending in a couple of months. Try ordering something on line from Ireland NI or France - the red tape and delays are identical.
Re: Brexit Consequences
Person 1) It must be A or B
Person 2) But what I am seeing is not A or B
Person 1) Stop your hideous trolling. It must be A or B
Person 2) <aside> who’s the troll here?
Person 2) But what I am seeing is not A or B
Person 1) Stop your hideous trolling. It must be A or B
Person 2) <aside> who’s the troll here?
Re: Brexit Consequences
Well, Jimbob gave three options, not two (a significant border on the island of Ireland; a border in the Irish Sea; or the UK is in the Single Market), but there is also a 4th option, which is what we have now, which is Johnson fudges it and continues to fudge it and the compliant press laud it as marvelous negotiating by Frost et al.plodder wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 9:04 amThen by definition, it doesn’t ‘have’ to be one of the two options, because it isn’t one of the two options.
"My interest is in the future, because I'm going to spend the rest of my life there"
Re: Brexit Consequences
The fudge is that Northern Ireland is effectively in the single market and there're customs checks in the Irish Sea. It's only sustainable as a pretence that Johnson is going to negotiate some way out of it. There is a solution where the UK is in the single market in all but name. Or maybe out of it for something that cannot physically be sent over the border - like services, which will damage the UK, but saves Johnson's face.Martin_B wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 10:04 amWell, Jimbob gave three options, not two (a significant border on the island of Ireland; a border in the Irish Sea; or the UK is in the Single Market), but there is also a 4th option, which is what we have now, which is Johnson fudges it and continues to fudge it and the compliant press laud it as marvelous negotiating by Frost et al.
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation
- Woodchopper
- Princess POW
- Posts: 7144
- Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2019 9:05 am
Re: Brexit Consequences
I can imagine an equilibrium in which the EU keeps rolling over the grace period, and the UK doesn't diverge from EU standards on food etc. Neither need concede in principle but both could recognize the status quo. The EU gets what it wants (no sub-standard products in its market) and the UK government gets what it wants (parts of the NI protocol not implemented). That situation could continue for years, so long as the UK isn't expected to change its standards (eg in another trade agreement with the US) or organized criminals don't exploit the fudge to the extent that the EU and UK have to act.Martin_B wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 10:04 amWell, Jimbob gave three options, not two (a significant border on the island of Ireland; a border in the Irish Sea; or the UK is in the Single Market), but there is also a 4th option, which is what we have now, which is Johnson fudges it and continues to fudge it and the compliant press laud it as marvelous negotiating by Frost et al.
Re: Brexit Consequences
That appears to be the UK position, but hoping the EU don't notice/just let us carry on if/when standards change. Frost also seems to think this is a valid position, and any EU demurral is perfidy. I find it depressing and sad that we're in this kind of positionWoodchopper wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 12:50 pmI can imagine an equilibrium in which the EU keeps rolling over the grace period, and the UK doesn't diverge from EU standards on food etc. Neither need concede in principle but both could recognize the status quo. The EU gets what it wants (no sub-standard products in its market) and the UK government gets what it wants (parts of the NI protocol not implemented). That situation could continue for years, so long as the UK isn't expected to change its standards (eg in another trade agreement with the US) or organized criminals don't exploit the fudge to the extent that the EU and UK have to act.
![Sad :-(](./images/smilies/icon_e_sad.gif)
- Bird on a Fire
- Princess POW
- Posts: 10142
- Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:05 pm
- Location: Portugal
Re: Brexit Consequences
The trade deal with Australia is already allowing goods (eg meat) into the UK that don't meet EU standards. I suppose they'll just take it on trust that none of it will be re-exported to NI etc.?
We have the right to a clean, healthy, sustainable environment.
- Woodchopper
- Princess POW
- Posts: 7144
- Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2019 9:05 am
Re: Brexit Consequences
Some will get in. I expect that it may be tolerable if the quantities are very low. It'll be a problem of criminal groups start smuggling tons of it into the EU.Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 2:44 pmThe trade deal with Australia is already allowing goods (eg meat) into the UK that don't meet EU standards. I suppose they'll just take it on trust that none of it will be re-exported to NI etc.?