The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Discussions about serious topics, for serious people
Post Reply
User avatar
lpm
Junior Mod
Posts: 5944
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:05 pm

Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by lpm » Thu Aug 05, 2021 11:56 am

No cars are scrapped early, they all expire at their natural end unless there's some govt scheme to prop up the car industry Tory Party donors.

So the only thing that matters is cars entering the nation's fleet - i.e. the decisions of new car purchasers. Preventing people buying new fossil fuel cars is the goal.
⭐ Awarded gold star 4 November 2021

User avatar
bjn
Stummy Beige
Posts: 2915
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:58 pm
Location: London

Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by bjn » Thu Aug 05, 2021 11:58 am

lpm wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 6:49 am
The Kia would know.
You have to ask the car how many miles or kWhs it has driven/used, so pretty similar really. You aren’t being taxed at the charger per se. I’d argue for a mileage tax, factoring is weight, to be much fairer. Road damage being proportional to the fourth power of axle weight and all.

User avatar
lpm
Junior Mod
Posts: 5944
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:05 pm

Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by lpm » Thu Aug 05, 2021 12:05 pm

Does any EV currently retain a record of all its charging? A milometer is compulsory, fuel use should also be a compulsory record - would give a nice lot of real world data to engineer ultra-efficient cars.
⭐ Awarded gold star 4 November 2021

User avatar
Martin Y
Stummy Beige
Posts: 3080
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:08 pm

Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by Martin Y » Thu Aug 05, 2021 12:14 pm

It wouldn't surprise me if EVs recorded their battery charging history, but to base a taxation system on it you need a requirement for all cars sold in the UK to provide this information in a standard format which is easy to download but also tamperproof and a system for downloading and reporting it. Yes you could make it part of the MOT but that doesn't start till the car's 3 years old. There's also a substantial and increasing fleet of cars which would need to be retrofitted with whatever tech is required.

User avatar
dyqik
Princess POW
Posts: 7526
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:19 pm
Location: Masshole
Contact:

Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by dyqik » Thu Aug 05, 2021 12:24 pm

monkey wrote:
Wed Aug 04, 2021 10:43 pm
dyqik wrote:
Wed Aug 04, 2021 10:15 pm
monkey wrote:
Wed Aug 04, 2021 9:41 pm


Isn't it how much force the the motor is applying/applied on average to the wheels? It would only equal the friction/drag when you are not accelerating or decelerating.
With 100% efficient regenerative braking, that evens out as long as you come to a complete stop at the end of the your journey. ;)

Shades of keeping the number of landings the same as your number of takeoffs there.
You have to apply force to go at a constant speed, there is still friction and drag to be in equilibrium with. So at a constant speed your instantaneous force is > 0. Most journeys aren't simply accelerate-stop, so the average force applied would be >0 too, 'cos of the constant speed bit, even if you include regenerative braking as a negative (which is fair).

But I suppose your journey might be a drag race, you do you.
That was the point - on the assumption of perfect regenerative braking, the kinetic energy of the car drops out of the energy consumption, leaving just the average dissipated energy.
Last edited by dyqik on Thu Aug 05, 2021 12:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
dyqik
Princess POW
Posts: 7526
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:19 pm
Location: Masshole
Contact:

Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by dyqik » Thu Aug 05, 2021 12:26 pm

lpm wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 11:56 am
No cars are scrapped early, they all expire at their natural end unless there's some govt scheme to prop up the car industry Tory Party donors.

So the only thing that matters is cars entering the nation's fleet - i.e. the decisions of new car purchasers. Preventing people buying new fossil fuel cars is the goal.
The natural end is often due to corrosion and age rather than mileage though. So if you keep a car while it rusts, and don't drive it much, it'll reach it's end with lower lifetime emissions.

User avatar
dyqik
Princess POW
Posts: 7526
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:19 pm
Location: Masshole
Contact:

Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by dyqik » Thu Aug 05, 2021 2:02 pm

I should probably just google this, but is there any significant work being done on renewable generation of methane?

I know about using hydrogen as a percentage of the mix, but that's limited in scope by the fact that the natural gas distribution and usage system isn't designed for hydrogen. BoaF's post above about solar generated hydrogen brought this to mind.

I could see it having pretty high potential to quietly move one fossil fuel to being a renewable fuel with almost no action or investment required at the consumer level, with little disruption to distribution networks etc., and with storage systems already in place.

Here in the NE US, natural gas is fairly standard in towns and cities as a heating and cooking fuel (places without NG are often propane for cooking and oil for heating, rather than electric). Going all electric is relatively expensive to run, and relies on above ground cables which are frequently brought down in storms (natural gas or petrol house generators aren't uncommon, because of this, and can keep a NG fired heating system running). Obviously including heat pumps in the mix for domestic heating is a sensible thing, but temperatures here are fairly frequently too low for air source heat pumps, and ground source heat pumps are much more expensive to install.

User avatar
dyqik
Princess POW
Posts: 7526
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:19 pm
Location: Masshole
Contact:

Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by dyqik » Thu Aug 05, 2021 2:10 pm

dyqik wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 12:26 pm
lpm wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 11:56 am
No cars are scrapped early, they all expire at their natural end unless there's some govt scheme to prop up the car industry Tory Party donors.

So the only thing that matters is cars entering the nation's fleet - i.e. the decisions of new car purchasers. Preventing people buying new fossil fuel cars is the goal.
The natural end is often due to corrosion and age rather than mileage though. So if you keep a car while it rusts, and don't drive it much, it'll reach it's end with lower lifetime emissions.
The other factor in all this is that most people are financially limited when it comes to energy efficiency upgrades. We could buy a new plug-in hybrid or electric AWD SUV to replace our 16 year old Subaru, or a new EV to replace the 11 year old Prius, but we've spent the same money on installing a heat pump, insulation and energy efficient windows* over the past couple of years instead, and can also afford to pay for 100% renewable electricity. Since we drive the Subaru about 40 miles a week in normal usage, plus a 3-4 longer vacation trips a year, and drive the Prius 30 miles a week in non-CoVID times (currently closer to 100 miles a week, as I'm driving to the lab twice a week rather than driving a mile to public transport 5 times a week), house energy efficiency upgrades are probably a more effective use of our available resources right now. Those upgrades also have lifetimes of at least 20 years, probably more like 40 years, compared to a likely 15-20 year maximum life for new cars.

Of course, that equation is probably a little different in a milder climate like the UK, where heating and cooling is less of the household energy usage.

* also removing the lead paint that was on the 60 year old single-glazed sash windows in the process. The window panes were falling out, and some cracked.

User avatar
Martin Y
Stummy Beige
Posts: 3080
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:08 pm

Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by Martin Y » Thu Aug 05, 2021 2:32 pm

dyqik wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 2:10 pm
... and can also afford to pay for 100% renewable electricity.
(This is intended to be in the spirit of not wanting to be a dick about it but finally feeling driven to ask) does buying green electricity actually drive the construction of more renewable generation?

User avatar
dyqik
Princess POW
Posts: 7526
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:19 pm
Location: Masshole
Contact:

Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by dyqik » Thu Aug 05, 2021 2:56 pm

Martin Y wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 2:32 pm
dyqik wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 2:10 pm
... and can also afford to pay for 100% renewable electricity.
(This is intended to be in the spirit of not wanting to be a dick about it but finally feeling driven to ask) does buying green electricity actually drive the construction of more renewable generation?
In the US at least, it's done by your consumer supplier buying renewable energy credits on the open market, which are sold by power companies that generate renewable power. So yes, it's the main way that money goes from the consumer choices to renewable energy generators, and increases their return on investment for building the renewable power.

That's what drives the building of wind farms and solar farms in particular (you can also sign up to pay a bit more for your supply to come from new local renewable investments). Hydro is probably less driven by the short term energy credit market though.

User avatar
Martin_B
After Pie
Posts: 1614
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:20 pm
Location: Perth, WA

Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by Martin_B » Fri Aug 06, 2021 12:11 am

dyqik wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 2:02 pm
I should probably just google this, but is there any significant work being done on renewable generation of methane?

I know about using hydrogen as a percentage of the mix, but that's limited in scope by the fact that the natural gas distribution and usage system isn't designed for hydrogen. BoaF's post above about solar generated hydrogen brought this to mind.

I could see it having pretty high potential to quietly move one fossil fuel to being a renewable fuel with almost no action or investment required at the consumer level, with little disruption to distribution networks etc., and with storage systems already in place.

Here in the NE US, natural gas is fairly standard in towns and cities as a heating and cooking fuel (places without NG are often propane for cooking and oil for heating, rather than electric). Going all electric is relatively expensive to run, and relies on above ground cables which are frequently brought down in storms (natural gas or petrol house generators aren't uncommon, because of this, and can keep a NG fired heating system running). Obviously including heat pumps in the mix for domestic heating is a sensible thing, but temperatures here are fairly frequently too low for air source heat pumps, and ground source heat pumps are much more expensive to install.
There is renewable methane collection from land-fill and sewage sites, but it's rarely in quantities which make it economic to compress up to mains gas pressure and re-sell to the grid; if they use it for anything it's local microgeneration, which isn't as efficient as a large-scale turbine, but can reduce the site's electricity bills.

There certainly used to be research into trying to generate methane using catalysts from water and carbon dioxide. But last time I looked into it (a while ago) they couldn't find a system which ended up being a net producer of power or that produced methane in a way which could be scaled up to generate industrial quantities.

I'm fairly sure that if you could produce a feasible system to generate methane from carbon dioxide and water the fossil fuel companies would pay handsomely for it, as a) new sources of gas are always being looked for, and if it's cheaper than offshore drilling and infrastructure they'll take it, and b) one of the biggest headaches for fossil fuel/energy companies is what to do with the carbon dioxide they produce (CCS not really being terribly efficient, just the best they've come up with.)
"My interest is in the future, because I'm going to spend the rest of my life there"

Millennie Al
After Pie
Posts: 1621
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2020 4:02 am

Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by Millennie Al » Fri Aug 06, 2021 12:45 am

Martin_B wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 2:50 am
Millennie Al wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 12:21 am
bjn wrote:
Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:37 pm
You can link it to vehicle weight as well if necessary.
And why would you link it to vehicle weight?
The link to vehicle weight is (I presume from bjn's post) to link usage to road damage and repair.
But road damage is propotional to the fourth power of weight, so heavy vehicles do almost all of it. You can see a little of this on motorways where HGVs wear grooves in the leftmost lane. If you have HGVs on a road, the effect of other traffic can be ignored.

Though, of course, there are occasional calls for road pricing, so that might mean that every journey would be reported and individually charged, allowing for roads which do not allow HGVs to charge upkeep fees to whatever was the heaviest class of vehicles using it.

Millennie Al
After Pie
Posts: 1621
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2020 4:02 am

Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by Millennie Al » Fri Aug 06, 2021 12:49 am

bjn wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 5:53 am
You can charge from any 240V outlet, you can charge at home from higher power outlets. That is going to be the bulk of the charging, not at specialist charging stations. Did that 240 volt outlet get used for a kettle or a Kia?
That depends on where you live. If you don't have your own reserved parking you'll probably have to plug in to a lamppost charger, which can require you to enable it via a phone app. And with smart meters it would be quite easy to detect vehicle charging. 13 amps for six hours is pretty much inevitably going to be vehicle charging. You could charge your vehicle with the same amount of power used by boiling a kettle, but that wouldn't get you very far.

It would be a similar idea to the existing scheme of differential pricing for agricultural diesel - whatever technical measures were required would be mandated.

User avatar
dyqik
Princess POW
Posts: 7526
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:19 pm
Location: Masshole
Contact:

Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by dyqik » Fri Aug 06, 2021 10:40 am

Thanks.

Minor point here:
Martin_B wrote:
Fri Aug 06, 2021 12:11 am
There certainly used to be research into trying to generate methane using catalysts from water and carbon dioxide. But last time I looked into it (a while ago) they couldn't find a system which ended up being a net producer of power or that produced methane in a way which could be scaled up to generate industrial quantities.
Nothing that changes the form of renewable energy is a net producer of power - that's not the point. Charging batteries, hydrogen production, etc. are all about transporting it once you've captured the energy from wind or solar etc.

If you have excess, but peaky, renewables, and a process that you can turn on and off fast enough, then you just need it to be cheap enough per output unit of output energy for it to be useful for storage or transport, not to find new energy.

User avatar
bjn
Stummy Beige
Posts: 2915
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:58 pm
Location: London

Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by bjn » Fri Aug 06, 2021 1:18 pm

Martin_B wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 3:15 am
bjn wrote:
Wed Aug 04, 2021 4:11 pm
You are worrying about a corner case. Given that the average annual mileage in the UK for a car is 7,400 miles, of which 2,700 is commuting (just over 10 miles per working day) and 4,400 is for pleasure (12 miles per day over the year) with 400 miles for business (2 miles per working day on average), the vast majority of trips won't need rapid charging. Yes there will be spikey days where you drive to Lands End to John O'Groats and need rapid charging, and there will be road warriors driving stupid distances. However for most people on most days you can top up at home or at a cheap kerbside charger, eg: the 5KW lamppost charger literally outside my front gate with another 4 within eyeshot of my house which went in over the last few months. The infrastructure is appearing as needed. All my BEV owning neighbours had to do was phone the council and request a new charge point, who then told the charging companies about it gave them planning permission, hey presto, new chargers. This is Hounslow as well, not exactly a mega wealthy London borough.
I'm not sure that you can average out the pleasure usage of 4,400 miles a year to 12 miles per day on average, as this will be split into very different usages. Some might be driving to the supermarket/cinema/kid's swimming lessons, etc, which would be regular things and can be averaged. But other pleasure trips will be driving to see the relatives at Christmas, which can be well over 300 miles each way for some people. Taking a 30 minute break at a service station is fine, but if all cars are EVs, every parking spot at that service station will need to be a rapid or ultra-rapid charger to keep those breaks down to 30 minutes. The car parks might also need to be larger, as many people will only park up for a comfort break/grab a drink and be parked for ~5 minutes rather than 30 minutes.

Also, different countries have different ideas about what constitutes a long drive. From where I lived in the UK (Guildford), a 250 mile range covered most journeys (relatives in Cornwall, friends in Manchester, etc) which I would reasonably expect to perform without the need for a break.

But tomorrow I plan to drive down to Margaret River for the day with a couple of mates and do a bit of shopping and sight-seeing; with driving around the area down there this is about a 700 km (440 miles) round trip. We probably won't be anywhere long enough when we're down there to have a chance to recharge, and because of the nature of the roads between the two places (100-110 km/h speed limits, little traffic, etc) the driving is easy and I wouldn't expect to take a driving break on the way down or back to recharge. My current car (a Camry hybrid) will easily do the trip on a tank (probably less than 75% of my small 45 litre tank). This is hardly an uncommon trip for an Australian, and a simple one for an ICE car (or my hybrid) but suddenly becomes much more difficult for an EV.
Coming back to this. I tried to find a distribution of car journey by length and couldn't, only annual mileage. But as I said, there will be spikey days where you are driving long distances, from my own usage (yes, N=1) I do probably about a 4 journeys a year that exceed 200 miles in a day, even pre-covid. A decent data set would help. The infrastructure needs to expand to cope with added demand, but at the rate it's all scaling I don't see that it is going to be a huge problem. No doubt there will be awkward times and places as we transition and someone gets stuck on the side of the road with a flat battery, chargers will be broken and other aggravating kerfuffles. But then again, I've had to push an empty motorbike several miles (AA was going to take hours) to get it refilled when the service station I was planning to fill up at was unexpectedly shut.

For your planned journey an EV probably wouldn't work now, destination charging would be needed to make it work for you. 20kW+ at the vineyards you are probably doing a crawl around to avoid a 20 minute break going there or back. But how often do you do that or similar length trips in a day? How many people do that? I've done the drive to Margaret River a couple of times (my sister lives in Fremantle), we stayed overnight both times and would have used destination charging for it.

Even if you did have to wait 20 minutes at a fast charger somewhere on that long journey, you don't have to ever fill up at the service station day-to-day. So you'd probably win all round.

That said, there will be cases where it will always be hard to electrify ground transportation (eg: trying to do a Leyland Brothers), but how many are there?

User avatar
Gfamily
Light of Blast
Posts: 5180
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:00 pm
Location: NW England

Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by Gfamily » Fri Aug 06, 2021 3:12 pm

There remains the issue that the overall electrical energy needed to replace the energy currently use by ICEs burning hydrocarbons is going to require a very significant increase in power generation and distribution capacity.
I can't remember the figure for UK, but I've seen a figure of 25% for California
My avatar was a scientific result that was later found to be 'mistaken' - I rarely claim to be 100% correct
ETA 5/8/20: I've been advised that the result was correct, it was the initial interpretation that needed to be withdrawn
Meta? I'd say so!

User avatar
Grumble
Light of Blast
Posts: 4746
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:03 pm

Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by Grumble » Fri Aug 06, 2021 4:11 pm

Gfamily wrote:
Fri Aug 06, 2021 3:12 pm
There remains the issue that the overall electrical energy needed to replace the energy currently use by ICEs burning hydrocarbons is going to require a very significant increase in power generation and distribution capacity.
I can't remember the figure for UK, but I've seen a figure of 25% for California
Not really any increase for distribution required, not at a national level anyway, probably some at local street level.
where once I used to scintillate
now I sin till ten past three

User avatar
Gfamily
Light of Blast
Posts: 5180
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:00 pm
Location: NW England

Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by Gfamily » Fri Aug 06, 2021 4:19 pm

Grumble wrote:
Fri Aug 06, 2021 4:11 pm
Gfamily wrote:
Fri Aug 06, 2021 3:12 pm
There remains the issue that the overall electrical energy needed to replace the energy currently use by ICEs burning hydrocarbons is going to require a very significant increase in power generation and distribution capacity.
I can't remember the figure for UK, but I've seen a figure of 25% for California
Not really any increase for distribution required, not at a national level anyway, probably some at local street level.
🤨
That could be pretty much every street.
My avatar was a scientific result that was later found to be 'mistaken' - I rarely claim to be 100% correct
ETA 5/8/20: I've been advised that the result was correct, it was the initial interpretation that needed to be withdrawn
Meta? I'd say so!

User avatar
dyqik
Princess POW
Posts: 7526
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:19 pm
Location: Masshole
Contact:

Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by dyqik » Fri Aug 06, 2021 4:27 pm

Gfamily wrote:
Fri Aug 06, 2021 4:19 pm
Grumble wrote:
Fri Aug 06, 2021 4:11 pm
Gfamily wrote:
Fri Aug 06, 2021 3:12 pm
There remains the issue that the overall electrical energy needed to replace the energy currently use by ICEs burning hydrocarbons is going to require a very significant increase in power generation and distribution capacity.
I can't remember the figure for UK, but I've seen a figure of 25% for California
Not really any increase for distribution required, not at a national level anyway, probably some at local street level.
🤨
That could be pretty much every street.
Probably not.

Where I lived in Oxford, 90% of the cars parked on the street only moved a couple of times a week. It's maybe 50% in my parent's street in Eastbourne. And most of the ones that move aren't doing much more than 10 miles in a trip.

I could see many streets that only have 1 car in 10 charging at any particular time. Obviously there'd be peaks, but negotiated charging rates to smooth out demand could maybe be used for much of that.

User avatar
bjn
Stummy Beige
Posts: 2915
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:58 pm
Location: London

Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by bjn » Fri Aug 06, 2021 5:30 pm

Gfamily wrote:
Fri Aug 06, 2021 3:12 pm
There remains the issue that the overall electrical energy needed to replace the energy currently use by ICEs burning hydrocarbons is going to require a very significant increase in power generation and distribution capacity.
I can't remember the figure for UK, but I've seen a figure of 25% for California
My back of the envelope was 30% extra kWhs to replaced every single oiler burner on the UK's roads, which will take decades. The national grid, who'd be in a position to know, thinks it's no biggy.
NationalGrid wrote:"There is definitely enough energy and the grid can cope easily,” he explains. “The growth in renewable energy means this is not static and smart metering will make this more efficient. For example, the growth in wind power from the extra offshore wind farms being developed will adequately meet the future demand for electrifying transport – an extra 100 terrawatt hours from our current 300 terrawatt hours consumed.
ETA: nice to see my back of the envelope being confirmed.

User avatar
Gfamily
Light of Blast
Posts: 5180
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:00 pm
Location: NW England

Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by Gfamily » Fri Aug 06, 2021 6:28 pm

bjn wrote:
Fri Aug 06, 2021 5:30 pm
Gfamily wrote:
Fri Aug 06, 2021 3:12 pm
There remains the issue that the overall electrical energy needed to replace the energy currently use by ICEs burning hydrocarbons is going to require a very significant increase in power generation and distribution capacity.
I can't remember the figure for UK, but I've seen a figure of 25% for California
My back of the envelope was 30% extra kWhs to replaced every single oiler burner on the UK's roads, which will take decades. The national grid, who'd be in a position to know, thinks it's no biggy.
NationalGrid wrote:"There is definitely enough energy and the grid can cope easily,” he explains. “The growth in renewable energy means this is not static and smart metering will make this more efficient. For example, the growth in wind power from the extra offshore wind farms being developed will adequately meet the future demand for electrifying transport – an extra 100 terrawatt hours from our current 300 terrawatt hours consumed.
ETA: nice to see my back of the envelope being confirmed.
Hmmm, I can see a winter anticyclone sitting over the country, bringing still air with mist and fog over the country for a week; so everyone can get away for Christmas, but can't drive home for New Year.
My avatar was a scientific result that was later found to be 'mistaken' - I rarely claim to be 100% correct
ETA 5/8/20: I've been advised that the result was correct, it was the initial interpretation that needed to be withdrawn
Meta? I'd say so!

User avatar
bjn
Stummy Beige
Posts: 2915
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:58 pm
Location: London

Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by bjn » Fri Aug 06, 2021 8:39 pm

Bring it up with National Grid then.

User avatar
bjn
Stummy Beige
Posts: 2915
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:58 pm
Location: London

Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by bjn » Sat Aug 07, 2021 8:46 am

Looks like electric aviation may soon be a thing. DHL have ordered a dozen electric planes from Eviation and will begin trialing them this year. The planes have a range of 800 km and a cruising speed of 400km/h, with 1.5t of cargo. Mahoosive battery of 3,700kg though. They say that running costs will be lower than a fossil fuel powered plane.

Interesting to see how this develops as battery densities improve and prices drop.

User avatar
Bird on a Fire
Princess POW
Posts: 10137
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:05 pm
Location: Portugal

Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by Bird on a Fire » Sat Aug 07, 2021 10:27 am

Biden aiming for 50% of new cars to be battery powered electric ones by 2030 https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... ate-crisis

Car manufacturers seem to be on board, as they were rolling out new models anyway, which is encouraging.
We have the right to a clean, healthy, sustainable environment.

User avatar
Grumble
Light of Blast
Posts: 4746
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:03 pm

Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by Grumble » Sat Aug 07, 2021 11:59 am

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Sat Aug 07, 2021 10:27 am
Biden aiming for 50% of new cars to be battery powered electric ones by 2030 https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... ate-crisis

Car manufacturers seem to be on board, as they were rolling out new models anyway, which is encouraging.
Disappointed that the target includes hybrid.
where once I used to scintillate
now I sin till ten past three

Post Reply