Male violence and harassment of women

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bagpuss
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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by bagpuss » Fri Oct 01, 2021 8:43 am

I know that there is no instant good answer to the question of what to do if challenged by a police officer and feeling threatened, but I am beginning to feel as if the Met are flailing here. Surely they've had a few weeks to think of a good answer to the question, as it was very obvious that it would be asked. Their response quoted here really doesn't fill me with confidence:
The Met wrote: [they] must seek assistance - shouting out to a passer-by, running into a house, knocking on a door, waving a bus down or if you are in the position to do so calling 999
Have you ever tried waving a bus down in London between stops? Some bus drivers might stop if it was obvious to them that someone was distressed but generally they'd sail right on past.


And yet again, apart from saying that they won't send people out alone in plain clothes (and you know that this is only going to happen short term, as time will pass and they'll be short-staffed and the only way they can get everything done is by sending people out alone), everything is focussed on what women can do to protect themselves. Yes of course, they've been asked the question and they do need to answer it, and that's fine. But where's the evidence that they're addressing their side of things? Where's the promise of a full review of vetting procedures? Where's the promise of looking into and sorting out the issue of women in the police force saying that they don't feel able to report their colleagues for misogynistic behaviour as they are worried they then can't rely on their help in an emergency? I've heard so many responses from various individuals in the police over the last few days saying things like "things are much better than they were 10 years ago" or "we have processes in place to report colleagues anonymously"* or "it is already the duty of every police officer to report wrongdoing in a fellow police officer". Female police officers are saying over and over again that they don't feel able to report or when they do nothing changes. Reports are appearing in the press over and over again about the police failing to investigate complaints of domestic abuse, or threatening behaviour, or sexual harassment against other officers. How are they not getting that whatever is currently in place is either not working or is not enough? They are being utterly complacent and they just don't seem to be able to see it.




* and just how anonymous can you be if there were only 2 police officers present at the time of an incident and one is the one being complained about? Or even if there are several but only 1 woman - assumptions will be made.

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by bagpuss » Fri Oct 01, 2021 8:47 am

Fishnut wrote:
Fri Oct 01, 2021 8:27 am
I'm getting to the point where if I see someone being arrested or even questioned by police in a way that looks like they may be overstepping I'm going to start filming. Netpol have a good "rough guide" to filming the police.

The TL:DR is
- ask permission of the person being stopped by the police, saying that “I’m here to make sure the police don’t do anything to you they are not supposed to. Is it OK if I film what the police are doing?”. This also gets around any claims of the police that you are breaching their privacy. Obviously, if they say they don't want to be filmed then stop but if they are ok then continue.

- if the police say you're obstructing them in their duties, step back and say “I have no intention of obstructing you” but continue filming

- focus on the police officers, not the person they are detaining. Get their officers' numbers and say them out loud for the camera if you can

- don't film the person being detained unless absolutely necessary, so you don't accidentally gather evidence for the police. Avoid filming their face or any identifiable clothing. Don't film anything the police can use against them, this includes swearing.

- try and get some landmarks at the end of your video, such as street signs or identifiable buildings

- film in landscape, not portrait. Keep the camera still and don't add a commentary.

- back up the footage as soon as possible. If the person is let go ask if they wish to exchange details so you can give them the footage.

Thanks fishnut, that's really useful. I'm a lot less likely to come across this situation now than in my younger, London commuting days, but you never know and there are a couple of things there that I might not have thought of, so good to have read them.

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by bagpuss » Fri Oct 01, 2021 8:51 am

I feel a letter to my MP coming on. I mean, it's completely pointless as he's just a relatively newbie backbench Conservative "anything you say Boris" type but I've got to do something and I'm not sure what else there is I can do.

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by kerrya1 » Fri Oct 01, 2021 9:12 am

Just had a massive arguement with my husband about this, he is of the impression that nothing can be done to stop women being attacked, raped, and murdered as we will always be vulnerableand need to take steps to protect ourselves.

He doesn't seem to realise that the violent attacks that make the news are just one end of a spectrum of abuse that starts with catcalling, groping on public transport, and all the other things women need to deal with on a daily basis. I am by no means an attractive women, I'm short and fat with bad skin, my clothes & shoes are always practical and the opposite of revealing and yet I have been catcalled, groped, called simultaneously a sl.t and a "lezza" because I didn't respond positively to guys who thought the ugly girl would be easy.

He was also unaware that the killer cop had been reported to the police for flashing on, I think, three occasions and nothing was done about it because of course its not serious, is it? I wonder how many men who attack women they don't know go from nice guy one day to rapist and/or murderer the next without committing some of the more minor aggressions first? How many of these attacks could have been stopped if abusive behaviour was called out by other men when it started to appear? How many women would be saved from violence if police took the non-violent offenses more seriously.

Sorry, probably not adding anything to the discussion but I just needed to unload this somewhere.

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by Fishnut » Fri Oct 01, 2021 9:19 am

The Met have released the most incredible statement, titled Our response to issues raised by the crimes of Wayne Couzens. It includes some of the measures they have introduced,
• We will soon publish a new strategy for tackling violence against women and girls. This will outline how we will prioritise action against sexual and violent predatory offenders.   

• We have established specialist Predatory Offender Units and since last November they have arrested more than 2,000 suspects for domestic abuse, sex offences and for child abuse.   

• The Met is growing and we are deploying 650 new officers into busy public places, including those where women and girls often lack confidence that they are safe.   

• We are also stepping up reassurance patrols and providing an increased police presence where it is most needed by identifying key “hotspot” locations for offences of violence and harassment. We are allocating officers solely for patrol in those areas.   

• Understanding the concerns of women in London is really important to us and we are undertaking a range of activity so we can better listen and respond.
New officers and increased police presence really misses the point. When you've made people fearful of the police, putting more of them on the street doesn't help.
We only want the best of the best in the Met and we will always act when our employees fall below the standards we and the public expect and erode the trust we depend upon. [my emphasis] 

I cannot believe they actually wrote that and made it public. I actually laughed out loud when I read it and am still in awe at the audacity to make a statement like that. It's blatant bollocks.
We are reviewing our crime screening process in respect of indecent exposure. We want to better understand the information we have as part of our approach to the identification and policing of crime hotspots.   

We believe this is an under-reported crime. 
No sh.t.

No admission that the reason it's so under-reported is that the police rarely do anything so why waste our time.
[If] you do find yourself in an interaction with a sole [plain clothes] police officer and you are on your own, it is entirely reasonable for you to seek further reassurance of that officer’s identity and intentions. Our advice is to ask some very searching questions of that officer:
- Where are your colleagues?
- Where have you come from?
- Why are you here?
- Exactly why are you stopping or talking to me?
If this is what they consider "very searching questions" then I'm honestly impressed they manage to successfully get information out of anyone.
Try to seek some independent verification of what they say, if they have a radio ask to hear the voice of the operator, even ask to speak through the radio to the operator to say who you are and for them to verify you are with a genuine officer, acting legitimately.
And, as many people on twitter are pointing out, it's unlikely these measures would have saved Sarah. The problem isn't with rapists pretending to be police officers, it's that rapists are police officers. Couzens was a genuine officer, "arresting" Sarah for breaking a genuine (if badly written) law. Maybe an operator would ask why he was arresting someone for breaching covid regulations when he wasn't on his shift but maybe they'd just think he was being a diligent officer, who knows.

They end with the advice that Bagpuss has already flagged. Anyone who has ever caught a bus knows the great glee with which bus drivers will ignore anyone running for them, even if they're almost at the stop. The idea that bus drivers will stop for someone waving at them nowhere near a stop is absolutely laughable.

I completely agree with Bagpuss that they are flailing. They are not looking at Couzens as emblematic of a culture that degrades and disregards women but as a "bad apple" who gives the rest of them a bad name. They don't want to admit their culpability, either in having a vetting and hiring process that allowed a man like him to be allowed to become a police officer or in the way they dismiss "low level" sexual crimes as not worth investigating. If the indecent exposure cases had been investigated properly then chances are he'd have not been allowed to become a Met officer. And even if he was (and I'm cynical enough to believe that they wouldn't have been deemed 'serious' enough to stop him being hired) the judge wouldn't have been able to use "his hitherto good character" as a mitigating factor in his sentencing or say that he "has no prior previous convictions".

The fact that "some of his colleagues have spoken supportively of him" despite him pleading guilty to a heinous crime really appals me. I can see people being shocked or in disbelief but to actually speak supportively of him for the judge to make note of it is a step too far. How on earth is any woman supposed to trust an organisation who has members who will do that? He had a private WhatsApp group with other officers that involved "homophobic, sexist and racist messages". This speaks to a culture that sees this as acceptable. I don't blame his bosses for not knowing about this group but I do blame them for hiring people who think such groups are acceptable. I blame them for allowing a culture where sexism, homophobia and racism are unchallenged and allowed to flourish. And I don't see any indication that the Met, or any police force, is going to do anything about that.
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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by Tessa K » Fri Oct 01, 2021 9:32 am

@ Fishnut

I was furious when I saw that information you've posted about what to do if an officer stops you. So now the onus is on us to check up on the police? And none of that will do you any good if you're a person of colour, particularly if you try to run away to get help.

It's not just plain clothes police either, plenty of uniformed officers harrass/attack women and minorities.

@Kerrya1

It's not to do with how you look, what shape you are or what you wear, it's about being female. Men who want to abuse us will always find some reason.

And they always close ranks to protect their mates. Even if they don't want to keep quiet there is so much pressure on them not to rock the boat to protect their careers or their place in a friend group.

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by Fishnut » Fri Oct 01, 2021 9:51 am

kerrya1 wrote:
Fri Oct 01, 2021 9:12 am
Just had a massive arguement with my husband about this, he is of the impression that nothing can be done to stop women being attacked, raped, and murdered as we will always be vulnerableand need to take steps to protect ourselves.

He doesn't seem to realise that the violent attacks that make the news are just one end of a spectrum of abuse that starts with catcalling, groping on public transport, and all the other things women need to deal with on a daily basis. I am by no means an attractive women, I'm short and fat with bad skin, my clothes & shoes are always practical and the opposite of revealing and yet I have been catcalled, groped, called simultaneously a sl.t and a "lezza" because I didn't respond positively to guys who thought the ugly girl would be easy.

He was also unaware that the killer cop had been reported to the police for flashing on, I think, three occasions and nothing was done about it because of course its not serious, is it? I wonder how many men who attack women they don't know go from nice guy one day to rapist and/or murderer the next without committing some of the more minor aggressions first? How many of these attacks could have been stopped if abusive behaviour was called out by other men when it started to appear? How many women would be saved from violence if police took the non-violent offenses more seriously.

Sorry, probably not adding anything to the discussion but I just needed to unload this somewhere.
Sorry to hear you've had an argument with your husband about this, and that you've received such treatment from men.

I wanted to highlight your comments about how people like Couzens could be stopped if we took non-violent offences seriously because it's really key to making women safer and one that is so overlooked by those in positions to do anything about it. We downplay indecent exposure. We downplay dick pics. We downplay "office banter". We downplay all these behaviours that make women vulnerable and tacitly tell men it's ok to disregard our feelings. And then we act all surprised when some of those men end up committing heinous crimes.
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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by bagpuss » Fri Oct 01, 2021 9:53 am

Fishnut has, as always, written lots of good stuff, but I'm just picking out these bits here for now:
Fishnut wrote:
Fri Oct 01, 2021 9:19 am
We are reviewing our crime screening process in respect of indecent exposure. We want to better understand the information we have as part of our approach to the identification and policing of crime hotspots.   

We believe this is an under-reported crime. 
No sh.t.

No admission that the reason it's so under-reported is that the police rarely do anything so why waste our time.
...
Fishnut wrote: If the indecent exposure cases had been investigated properly then chances are he'd have not been allowed to become a Met officer.

One thing that this case has really highlighted is how low a priority is generally given to indecent exposure cases and with how little seriousness they are treated.

In the Kent case from 2015, they had identified a car in connection with the crime and yet it seems no-one bothered to find out who the owner was. I have no idea whether they didn't bother checking or whether they did and then just either assumed it was irrelevant as it turned out to belong to a police officer, or deliberately stopped investigating because it was a police officer. Any of those possibilities are entirely believable and all indicate that indecent exposure is not treated sufficiently seriously.

I've always assumed that indecent exposure is given a relatively low priority because there's generally very little evidence to go on, so the police use their too-limited resources on cases where they've got a better chance of conviction. This is sh.t but at least understandable in the circumstances. But it now seems that they don't even necessarily follow up the evidence they have. If those reality cop tv shows are even vaguely accurate then the time and effort involved in getting the registered keeper of a car is pretty minimal. Or they did follow up the evidence and decide that since it was a police officer doing it, they'd just brush it under the carpet rather than create waves. Either way, that is not giving me confidence that any crime I report will be followed up.

I'm not sure how much information they had about the 28th Feb case, 3 days before Sarah Everard was kidnapped, how easy it would have been to identify him. Obviously they would have had other ongoing cases and it might have quite properly had lower priority than those, but was it just put to one side to be got round to eventually, maybe, along with with reports of minor vandalism and gnome thefts? I hope the internal investigation looks at this properly and we get to hear the results.


In the past, I once reported a (fortunately minor) sexual assault to the police - British Transport Police to be specific - and they stopped investigating as soon as it turned out the CCTV camera in the train carriage wasn't working. I thought that more could have been done (he got on at Marylebone, there's plenty of CCTV at the station, I could probably have picked him out if I'd been asked to look at the footage) but I accepted at the time that even then, identifying him would have been nigh impossible so it probably wasn't worth it. I felt then that it was being treated with the proper seriousness but not as a priority because of the evidence challenges and resource limitations. But now I would definitely be questioning whether anyone actually really cared enough to want to bother, because it wasn't deemed serious enough.

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by Fishnut » Fri Oct 01, 2021 9:55 am

Tessa K wrote:
Fri Oct 01, 2021 9:32 am
@ Fishnut

I was furious when I saw that information you've posted about what to do if an officer stops you. So now the onus is on us to check up on the police? And none of that will do you any good if you're a person of colour, particularly if you try to run away to get help.

It's not just plain clothes police either, plenty of uniformed officers harrass/attack women and minorities.
I just saw this tweet that points out the same thing you have - that the Met has yet again put all the responsibility on women for their safety and ignored the role of the police in it.
Screenshot 2021-10-01 at 10.53.00.png
Screenshot 2021-10-01 at 10.53.00.png (157.6 KiB) Viewed 2121 times
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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by Fishnut » Fri Oct 01, 2021 10:05 am

bagpuss wrote:
Fri Oct 01, 2021 9:53 am
In the past, I once reported a (fortunately minor) sexual assault to the police - British Transport Police to be specific - and they stopped investigating as soon as it turned out the CCTV camera in the train carriage wasn't working. I thought that more could have been done (he got on at Marylebone, there's plenty of CCTV at the station, I could probably have picked him out if I'd been asked to look at the footage) but I accepted at the time that even then, identifying him would have been nigh impossible so it probably wasn't worth it. I felt then that it was being treated with the proper seriousness but not as a priority because of the evidence challenges and resource limitations. But now I would definitely be questioning whether anyone actually really cared enough to want to bother, because it wasn't deemed serious enough.
I think we've been indoctrinated into thinking that these things are just part of life and aren't really worth the resources needed to investigate them. I can't remember if I've told this story, and apologies if I have, but I once saw what I think was a guy indecently exposing himself on a packed tube train. I still don't know what I saw - the "penis" looked almost comically pink so I can't be sure it wasn't fake (though now I think about it I'm not entirely sure that matters). The guy was a smartly dressed businessman and I remember him looking at me as this cock (fake or not) was waving about over the top of his pants. No-one else seemed to notice and I was so baffled by the whole experience that I was doubting myself even as it was going on. I remember getting off the train and thinking I should find someone to report it to but decided against it as I didn't know what it was I was reporting, it was so surreal. But even at the time I felt guilty and thought of what he might end up doing if he was allowed to keep getting away with stuff like that.

I think we really need to start, societally and legally, taking these low-level offences seriously. Consider them to be little earthquakes around a volcano - sometimes they're just earthquakes but other times they're warning signs that something terrible is going to happen. Maybe 99% of men committing indecent exposure are just happy to leave it there, but treating their crime seriously and pursuing them quickly will stop them exposing themselves to other people. And for the 1% who are using it as a warm-up to more serious acts then maybe you can prevent crimes from happening, from lives being ruined or even ended, and from women in general feeling like their safety is too much of a hassle for you to care about.
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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by bagpuss » Fri Oct 01, 2021 10:28 am

Fishnut wrote:
Fri Oct 01, 2021 10:05 am
I think we've been indoctrinated into thinking that these things are just part of life and aren't really worth the resources needed to investigate them.
This is so true. At the time, it didn't even occur to me to report the sexual assault until I mentioned it in passing the next day on a forum (not this or its predecessor, another one) and several women encouraged me to report it, so I did.

Fishnut wrote: I can't remember if I've told this story, and apologies if I have, but I once saw what I think was a guy indecently exposing himself on a packed tube train. I still don't know what I saw - the "penis" looked almost comically pink so I can't be sure it wasn't fake (though now I think about it I'm not entirely sure that matters). The guy was a smartly dressed businessman and I remember him looking at me as this cock (fake or not) was waving about over the top of his pants. No-one else seemed to notice and I was so baffled by the whole experience that I was doubting myself even as it was going on. I remember getting off the train and thinking I should find someone to report it to but decided against it as I didn't know what it was I was reporting, it was so surreal. But even at the time I felt guilty and thought of what he might end up doing if he was allowed to keep getting away with stuff like that.
I think you may have mentioned it before, it rings a bell, but don't you dare apologise for repeating it. I know I've told about my assault experience before but as long as that experience is relevant, keep mentioning it - it matters. And I know exactly what you mean about it being surreal - that's just how I felt about the sexual assault. I completely doubted it was happening for far longer than you would probably believe, because I must surely have been imagining it.

Fishnut wrote: I think we really need to start, societally and legally, taking these low-level offences seriously. Consider them to be little earthquakes around a volcano - sometimes they're just earthquakes but other times they're warning signs that something terrible is going to happen. Maybe 99% of men committing indecent exposure are just happy to leave it there, but treating their crime seriously and pursuing them quickly will stop them exposing themselves to other people. And for the 1% who are using it as a warm-up to more serious acts then maybe you can prevent crimes from happening, from lives being ruined or even ended, and from women in general feeling like their safety is too much of a hassle for you to care about.
This, this, so much this.

Of course not every man committing indecent exposure or minor sexual assault will go on to commit more serious offences but some do and it's a recognised and known progression that does happen. And even if none of them did, enough such minor offences still add up to a significant problem. To borrow your analogy, an occasional minor earthquake is of no great concern if there is no chance of anything bigger. But many and frequent minor earthquakes in one area could become a major annoyance and start impacting on people's ability to live a normal life.

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by Fishnut » Fri Oct 01, 2021 10:45 am

DAG has a blogpost up on the Met's "advice" that's well worth a read.
The problem is not that this murder was a ‘wrong un’ – a bad apple, and so on.

A problem is the immunity and impunity with which police officers routinely and casually use their coercive powers.

They know they can use their coercive powers at will, with no real accountability.

The powers of stop and of arrest are so general, and the thresholds they have to meet (or say they meet) are so low, that they can freely inflict what would otherwise would be an assault as they wish.

And even if, in a particular instance, an officer exceeds their authority, there is no real consequence for the officer: a civil action may be brought against the police force, or a complaint may be made, but the officer will continue in their job unaffected.
Regarding the advice in the final paragraph of the statement he writes,
One gets the sense that the writer of this police statement had, by the end of it, ran out of ideas and was winging it like an unprepared student in the last half-hour of an examination.
Couzens pleaded guilty to Sarah's kidnap and rape on the 8th June, and to her murder on the 9th July. There was no doubt he was going to jail for his crimes, the only thing that was unclear was for how long. The Metropolitan Police have had almost three months to work out their press strategy, to decide how they are going to reassure the public and women in particular that they are learning lessons from this case. But instead of doing anything to suggest they understand the gravity his crimes in terms of public confidence in the police, they do everything they can to distance themselves from him and come up with drivel like this statement. It's yet another sign they have no idea how to tackle these issues.
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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by JQH » Fri Oct 01, 2021 10:47 am

Assuming these extra patrols come to pass, I would like to make a prediction:

Case 1) A white man walking about 50 metres behind a woman. Cops do nothing or maybe follow him a short distance to let him know they've spotted him, so if he's up to no good he'll have a rethink.

Case 2) A black man walking about 50 metres behind a woman. Cops stop him and demand to know why he's following the woman, provoke a reaction they deem to be an arrestable offense or nick him for stalking.

I reckon it'll be mainly black men who get arrested, doing wonders for race relations while achieving f.ck all in solving the initial issue.
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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by El Pollo Diablo » Fri Oct 01, 2021 10:57 am

This point from the Met:
The Met is growing and we are deploying 650 new officers into busy public places, including those where women and girls often lack confidence that they are safe.   
Okay, 650 officers. Let's ignore for a second the obvious problems with policing murder by serving police officers with other police officers and focus instead on the numbers. Over three shifts, and presumably in pairs so that's 108 locations that can be covered throughout London. A city which has nearly 9m people in it. That doesn't feel that many. There are 201 activity centres in the city, so each pair of officers will cover near as dammit two centres each, and that ignores the fact that this particular kidnap, rape and murder happened next to a park, of which there are 3000 of different sizes in the city. So each shift pair will have to cover two activity centres and 30 parks.

And remember that they're new officers, so fairly green and perhaps less experienced and more likely to do stupid things. Possibly though it might be an improvement, as they also shouldn't have learnt too many bad habits.
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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by discovolante » Fri Oct 01, 2021 11:06 am

Not really adding anything constructive here but I was at a small festival a couple of weeks ago with a few people, some youngish guy turned up and was very persistent about wanting to sleep in my friend's campervan with her (as in 'with' her), and called me and my friends cockblockers when we tried to make him leave. He sort of apologised the next day but also just kept turning up and then leaving when it was clear that none of us wanted anything to do with him. Anyway I have a photo of him on my phone because it was in one of the photos that my friend sent to us all on WhatsApp, and I'm hanging onto it in case there is any news at all that a sexual assault took place at the festival. Pretty unlikely that anything like that would come to my attention but hey you never know. It's also the kind of festival where you end up bumping into the same festival each year and there is another festival where the same kind of people go.
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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by jimbob » Fri Oct 01, 2021 11:13 am

I always think that certain crimes should be considered red flags and taken very seriously.
flashing is one as are other sexual offences.

cruelty to animals is another especially if it is active as opposed to neglect

For exactly the reasons Fishnut says
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by Tessa K » Fri Oct 01, 2021 11:26 am

@Fishnut and @Bagpuss

The small earthquakes may not lead to bigger ones but enough low level ones day after day do just as much harm psychologically if not physically.

Also, it's pretty tricky to challenge the police when they're on a horse charging you at a peaceful Stop The Clause demo.

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by bagpuss » Fri Oct 01, 2021 12:08 pm

Tessa K wrote:
Fri Oct 01, 2021 11:26 am
@Fishnut and @Bagpuss

The small earthquakes may not lead to bigger ones but enough low level ones day after day do just as much harm psychologically if not physically.
Yes, exactly.

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by jimbob » Fri Oct 01, 2021 12:22 pm

Tessa K wrote:
Fri Oct 01, 2021 11:26 am
@Fishnut and @Bagpuss

The small earthquakes may not lead to bigger ones but enough low level ones day after day do just as much harm psychologically if not physically.

Also, it's pretty tricky to challenge the police when they're on a horse charging you at a peaceful Stop The Clause demo.
And it moves the Overton window towards more extreme behaviour
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by purplehaze » Fri Oct 01, 2021 12:51 pm

I have always thought that flashing is an escalating behaviour. It's never a laugh.

I'm reminded of a death of a young 12 year old girl in a town I used to live in. This man was a flasher, he started as a teenager, but people laughed it off, I was very young when the murder happened. Her body was found on wasteland and an attempt was made to burn her remains.

It's chilling and incredibly upsetting that decades later we women are still having to deal with the consequences of male violence on women.

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by Fishnut » Fri Oct 01, 2021 12:54 pm

JQH wrote:
Fri Oct 01, 2021 10:47 am
Assuming these extra patrols come to pass, I would like to make a prediction:

Case 1) A white man walking about 50 metres behind a woman. Cops do nothing or maybe follow him a short distance to let him know they've spotted him, so if he's up to no good he'll have a rethink.

Case 2) A black man walking about 50 metres behind a woman. Cops stop him and demand to know why he's following the woman, provoke a reaction they deem to be an arrestable offense or nick him for stalking.

I reckon it'll be mainly black men who get arrested, doing wonders for race relations while achieving f.ck all in solving the initial issue.
Sounds about right.

I'm looking into police abolition. I've only really heard about it in the US context but there are movements here too, such as Abolitionist Futures that are campaigning for it. As you point out, the problems with the police aren't just faced by women. Black men are particular targets of their wrath, and we know from the case of Stephen Lawrence how little they care about protecting them or providing them with justice. It's so very clear that the police aren't really there to protect us. This thread is littered with examples from people who have experienced harassment and assault who, even if they did go to the police didn't get anything resembling justice and most who chose not to go to them did so because they very reasonably assumed that would be the outcome.

The "who will catch the rapists?" argument against abolition is laughable given that only 3.6% of the 58,856 cases of rape recorded in England and Wales in the year to the end of March 2020 were prosecuted - they're not catching the rapists now! The aspect that makes Sarah's case so exceptional isn't that she was raped and murdered but that her family have seen swift justice. The Telegraph (article behind a paywall but all you need is the headline) reported earlier this year that the average time between a rape and a court verdict is nearly three years. That's a long time for both the victim and the accused. Justice delayed is justice denied and with all the cuts to the criminal justice system that will only get worse.

It'll never happen, I know, but I think talking about reform is pretty meaningless too. It's been two decades since the Stephen Lawrence Inquiry was published and nothing substantial has happened in its wake. There were no sweeping reforms. There was no change of culture. There were just meaningless promises that were never kept. After Harold Shipman systems were changed to ensure that a) no-one else could do what he did and b) that anyone who tried would be caught. After the Bristol Heart Scandal, where doctors in Bristol's paediatric cardiac unit were found to be causing the unnecessary deaths of paediatric patients due to incompetence and 'an old boy's culture' the Kennedy Report led to wide-ranging reforms of the NHS. Not all the recommendations were implemented but a lot were and the NHS is better for it. But the police seem to be a law unto themselves and until they are able to admit that it's not just a "few bad apples" but a culture and system that fails all of us then nothing will change.
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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by Tessa K » Fri Oct 01, 2021 1:00 pm

Fishnut wrote:
Fri Oct 01, 2021 12:54 pm
But the police seem to be a law unto themselves and until they are able to admit that it's not just a "few bad apples" but a culture and system that fails all of us then nothing will change.
Anyone who has tried to store apples knows that if a few bad ones are ignored for long enough they cause the whole lot to rot.

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by Fishnut » Fri Oct 01, 2021 1:14 pm

Tessa K wrote:
Fri Oct 01, 2021 1:00 pm
Fishnut wrote:
Fri Oct 01, 2021 12:54 pm
But the police seem to be a law unto themselves and until they are able to admit that it's not just a "few bad apples" but a culture and system that fails all of us then nothing will change.
Anyone who has tried to store apples knows that if a few bad ones are ignored for long enough they cause the whole lot to rot.
Exactly. It's like everyone has forgotten the whole saying or what it means. "A few bad apples spoil the whole barrel" is the actual full-length saying - the apples infect the others, and if you don't remove them the whole barrel will go bad. It's a warning, not a reassurance. It's telling you that you need to act, not that you can relax.
it's okay to say "I don't know"

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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by discovolante » Fri Oct 01, 2021 1:35 pm

Fishnut wrote:
Fri Oct 01, 2021 12:54 pm
JQH wrote:
Fri Oct 01, 2021 10:47 am
Assuming these extra patrols come to pass, I would like to make a prediction:

Case 1) A white man walking about 50 metres behind a woman. Cops do nothing or maybe follow him a short distance to let him know they've spotted him, so if he's up to no good he'll have a rethink.

Case 2) A black man walking about 50 metres behind a woman. Cops stop him and demand to know why he's following the woman, provoke a reaction they deem to be an arrestable offense or nick him for stalking.

I reckon it'll be mainly black men who get arrested, doing wonders for race relations while achieving f.ck all in solving the initial issue.
Sounds about right.

I'm looking into police abolition. I've only really heard about it in the US context but there are movements here too, such as Abolitionist Futures that are campaigning for it. As you point out, the problems with the police aren't just faced by women. Black men are particular targets of their wrath, and we know from the case of Stephen Lawrence how little they care about protecting them or providing them with justice. It's so very clear that the police aren't really there to protect us. This thread is littered with examples from people who have experienced harassment and assault who, even if they did go to the police didn't get anything resembling justice and most who chose not to go to them did so because they very reasonably assumed that would be the outcome.

The "who will catch the rapists?" argument against abolition is laughable given that only 3.6% of the 58,856 cases of rape recorded in England and Wales in the year to the end of March 2020 were prosecuted - they're not catching the rapists now! The aspect that makes Sarah's case so exceptional isn't that she was raped and murdered but that her family have seen swift justice. The Telegraph (article behind a paywall but all you need is the headline) reported earlier this year that the average time between a rape and a court verdict is nearly three years. That's a long time for both the victim and the accused. Justice delayed is justice denied and with all the cuts to the criminal justice system that will only get worse.

It'll never happen, I know, but I think talking about reform is pretty meaningless too. It's been two decades since the Stephen Lawrence Inquiry was published and nothing substantial has happened in its wake. There were no sweeping reforms. There was no change of culture. There were just meaningless promises that were never kept. After Harold Shipman systems were changed to ensure that a) no-one else could do what he did and b) that anyone who tried would be caught. After the Bristol Heart Scandal, where doctors in Bristol's paediatric cardiac unit were found to be causing the unnecessary deaths of paediatric patients due to incompetence and 'an old boy's culture' the Kennedy Report led to wide-ranging reforms of the NHS. Not all the recommendations were implemented but a lot were and the NHS is better for it. But the police seem to be a law unto themselves and until they are able to admit that it's not just a "few bad apples" but a culture and system that fails all of us then nothing will change.
Sorry on phone so it's hard to delete the bits I'm not directly responding to - in bold.

Almost by definition they are not there to protect us. They exist (ostensibly) to uphold the law. Whether or not the law exists to protect us depends on who makes the laws and doesn't really have anything to do with the police's role.
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Re: Male violence and harassment of women

Post by Stephanie » Fri Oct 01, 2021 1:36 pm

Have we had this utter f.cking dickhead yet?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-y ... e-58762029
"So women, first of all, need to be streetwise about when they can be arrested and when they can't be arrested. She should never have been arrested and submitted to that," he said.

"Perhaps women need to consider in terms of the legal process, to just learn a bit about that legal process".
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