Modern Monetary Theory
Re: Modern Monetary Theory
You'd prefer to impose moral rules rather than economic ones? OK.
eta there's a thread about Afghanistan if you want to discuss the specifics?
eta there's a thread about Afghanistan if you want to discuss the specifics?
Re: Modern Monetary Theory
I think they're moral rules in all cases, economics is just one of the tools we're considering using to enforce them. You're proposing to stop people gorging themselves on crud by changing the price of the crud. I'm thinking about why they want crud in the first place.
Re: Modern Monetary Theory
I am not proposing making crud more expensive as the end goal. I am proposing we put less effort into making crud as the end goal.
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Re: Modern Monetary Theory
That depends on how efficent they are. Suppose the task costs you effort that you put at $110 but someone else puts at $100. You could pay them $105 and you'd both profit. Unless they pay tax at 20%, in which case they only get $84. They would need to charge over $125 to make it worth while, which is more than it costs you to do it yourself. In the absence of tax, this transaction adds $10 of value, so any tax which collects that amount or more prevents the transaction taking place. And, of course, that's the most simplistic tax scheme. In reality there are likely to be further hidden taxes, such as a requirement to keep records of payments, and possibly to check and record right to work.Woodchopper wrote: ↑Sun Sep 19, 2021 8:34 amOnly if the other person is as efficient then you are. If they are much more efficient then its still a better use of time or money even after paying tax.Millennie Al wrote: ↑Sun Sep 19, 2021 1:57 amIf you do something yourself, that's a cost to you. If you prefer to pay someone else to do it, they (and possibly you) pay tax on that, so to get someone else to do something you have to pay more than if you did it yourself.
Re: Modern Monetary Theory
The US have quite a few moral rules and they are the crud masters. Economics is just one way of looking at culture. If economics is incomplete it’s because it’s missing important decision making elements found in culture (everyone is a rational actor etc)sheldrake wrote: ↑Sun Sep 19, 2021 11:00 amI think they're moral rules in all cases, economics is just one of the tools we're considering using to enforce them. You're proposing to stop people gorging themselves on crud by changing the price of the crud. I'm thinking about why they want crud in the first place.
Re: Modern Monetary Theory
Consider Ramadan; millions of muslims living in the west voluntarily fast during the day for Ramadan. I think it would be very hard, and likely to product all kinds of accidental side effects, to use a pricing scheme to reproduce that behaviour.plodder wrote: ↑Mon Sep 20, 2021 7:46 amThe US have quite a few moral rules and they are the crud masters. Economics is just one way of looking at culture. If economics is incomplete it’s because it’s missing important decision making elements found in culture (everyone is a rational actor etc)sheldrake wrote: ↑Sun Sep 19, 2021 11:00 amI think they're moral rules in all cases, economics is just one of the tools we're considering using to enforce them. You're proposing to stop people gorging themselves on crud by changing the price of the crud. I'm thinking about why they want crud in the first place.
Culturally induced self-restraint can be much more powerful than economics.
Re: Modern Monetary Theory
Oh good grief. An economist (if they were going for completism) would have to try and factor that in - perhaps the infinite cost of going to hell, for example. This is why economics is incomplete, but it's also why economists are constantly expanding the range of things they price (Ecosystem services are now mainstream for example).
Sociologists would have a different perspective, as would boring armchair commentators who prefer not to use formal theory or evidence.
Sociologists would have a different perspective, as would boring armchair commentators who prefer not to use formal theory or evidence.
Re: Modern Monetary Theory
Scientism is wrecking young minds; the idea that all social goods can be calculated using the statistical methods of social science (and that all existing theories fit this framework). Nope.plodder wrote: ↑Mon Sep 20, 2021 10:34 amOh good grief. An economist (if they were going for completism) would have to try and factor that in - perhaps the infinite cost of going to hell, for example. This is why economics is incomplete, but it's also why economists are constantly expanding the range of things they price (Ecosystem services are now mainstream for example).
Sociologists would have a different perspective, as would boring armchair commentators who prefer not to use formal theory or evidence.
The followup laugh is when people espouse this whilst having an extremely limited knowledge the quasi-science they promote. Trying to analyse this with economics is a bit like trying to analyse animal behaviour entirely in terms of atomic physics.
Re: Modern Monetary Theory
I guess at least with economics you can come up with a measurable policy. Good luck with your moral leadership campaign. But you're right, everything is hopeless and from our middle aged perspective the kids have it all wrong.
Re: Modern Monetary Theory
One of the problems economics has is that we can't always get good measurements for social goods, and we certainly can't often do true controlled experiments. It's often just a political/values debate cloaked in the language of applied maths.
I don't think everything is hopeless, I just think you'll get more progress towards your goal by focussing on why people have this hunger for stuff they don't really need, and I think that needs more psychological/philosophical tools than economic ones. You've worked on people's self-esteem and helped them before, right? Have a bit more faith in humanistic approaches eh?Good luck with your moral leadership campaign. But you're right, everything is hopeless and from our middle aged perspective the kids have it all wrong.
Re: Modern Monetary Theory
would a warning picture of lung cancer on a packet of fags be an economic tool or a social tool? They’re ultimately different ways of describing the same thing. Try imposing an immoral tax, for example.
Re: Modern Monetary Theory
I would say its a social tool (but not a very effective one in that case).
How would you describe voluntary participation in Ramadan by muslims living in western countries? Or the award of titles like ‘Sir’ to people who have done a lot of charity work?
I think these are social, but they can also be quite powerful.
Re: Modern Monetary Theory
congratulations for discovering social capital
Re: Modern Monetary Theory
This has got really boring now.
Re: Modern Monetary Theory
OMG YOU JUST INVENTED SELF AWARENESS
Re: Modern Monetary Theory
Not sure whether fits in with MMT, and it's beyond my ken as to the implications, but this is interesting
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... bt-ceiling
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... bt-ceiling
My avatar was a scientific result that was later found to be 'mistaken' - I rarely claim to be 100% correct
ETA 5/8/20: I've been advised that the result was correct, it was the initial interpretation that needed to be withdrawn
Meta? I'd say so!
ETA 5/8/20: I've been advised that the result was correct, it was the initial interpretation that needed to be withdrawn
Meta? I'd say so!
Re: Modern Monetary Theory
Yes, this is the most straightforward kind of quantitative easing. Just have the govt. print (or mint) physical money instead of borrow it at interest. Abraham Lincoln printed 'greenbacks' to fund the civil war instead of borrow them.Gfamily wrote: ↑Fri Oct 15, 2021 3:50 pmNot sure whether fits in with MMT, and it's beyond my ken as to the implications, but this is interesting
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... bt-ceiling
Comes with the same long term question; what's the feedback mechanism thats going to stop them doing this too much?
Re: Modern Monetary Theory
A well put together German documentary on how banking and money creation work, and how they siphon real wealth from the poor to the rich https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6m49vNjEGs
Re: Modern Monetary Theory
I'm shocked! Shocked to find that banking works to keep the rich richer!sheldrake wrote: ↑Tue Nov 02, 2021 7:07 pmA well put together German documentary on how banking and money creation work, and how they siphon real wealth from the poor to the rich https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6m49vNjEGs
"My interest is in the future, because I'm going to spend the rest of my life there"
Re: Modern Monetary Theory
Who can you vote for who would do something about it?Martin_B wrote: ↑Wed Nov 03, 2021 4:30 amI'm shocked! Shocked to find that banking works to keep the rich richer!sheldrake wrote: ↑Tue Nov 02, 2021 7:07 pmA well put together German documentary on how banking and money creation work, and how they siphon real wealth from the poor to the rich https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6m49vNjEGs
Re: Modern Monetary Theory
Considering where the quote was misquoted from, no-one who's going to be in any sort of powersheldrake wrote: ↑Thu Nov 04, 2021 12:10 pmWho can you vote for who would do something about it?Martin_B wrote: ↑Wed Nov 03, 2021 4:30 amI'm shocked! Shocked to find that banking works to keep the rich richer!sheldrake wrote: ↑Tue Nov 02, 2021 7:07 pmA well put together German documentary on how banking and money creation work, and how they siphon real wealth from the poor to the rich https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6m49vNjEGs
"My interest is in the future, because I'm going to spend the rest of my life there"
Re: Modern Monetary Theory
The Green Party.sheldrake wrote: ↑Thu Nov 04, 2021 12:10 pmWho can you vote for who would do something about it?Martin_B wrote: ↑Wed Nov 03, 2021 4:30 amI'm shocked! Shocked to find that banking works to keep the rich richer!sheldrake wrote: ↑Tue Nov 02, 2021 7:07 pmA well put together German documentary on how banking and money creation work, and how they siphon real wealth from the poor to the rich https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6m49vNjEGs