Benefits of Brexit for Britain

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temptar
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Re: Benefits of Brexit for Britain

Post by temptar » Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:15 am

sheldrake wrote:
Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:01 am
plodder wrote:
Sat Oct 16, 2021 7:57 am
You do need to be clear on what exactly you think we gain from working in a looser governance environment
Faster decision making that's more accountable to UK voters.
- we've had loads of green initiatives over the years already - they typically get scrapped by lazy chancellors though.
I think that just has to be fixed by voting. If we're going to force the economy off of fossil fuels we can't just push all of the heavy industry jobs and carbon footprint to run on chinese coal.
Your voting system won't save you.
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plodder
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Re: Benefits of Brexit for Britain

Post by plodder » Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:16 am

sheldrake wrote:
Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:01 am

I think that just has to be fixed by voting. If we're going to force the economy off of fossil fuels we can't just push all of the heavy industry jobs and carbon footprint to run on chinese coal.
keen grasp of the detail there
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sheldrake
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Re: Benefits of Brexit for Britain

Post by sheldrake » Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:32 am

plodder wrote:
Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:16 am
sheldrake wrote:
Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:01 am

I think that just has to be fixed by voting. If we're going to force the economy off of fossil fuels we can't just push all of the heavy industry jobs and carbon footprint to run on chinese coal.
keen grasp of the detail there
I'm not sure here is the right place for an essay.
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plodder
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Re: Benefits of Brexit for Britain

Post by plodder » Sat Oct 16, 2021 9:06 am

it is the right place to parse my comments and reply to them properly though. We've had loads of green initiatives in the past that have involved subsidy, so to demonstrate a Brexit benefit you need to show which subsidies we can now offer that we couldn't previously offer, followed by an explanation of why these subsidies are beneficial rather than propping up something silly. So that might take a bit of an essay, because you're making big claims.
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sheldrake
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Re: Benefits of Brexit for Britain

Post by sheldrake » Sat Oct 16, 2021 9:37 am

plodder wrote:
Sat Oct 16, 2021 9:06 am
it is the right place to parse my comments and reply to them properly though. We've had loads of green initiatives in the past that have involved subsidy, so to demonstrate a Brexit benefit you need to show which subsidies we can now offer that we couldn't previously offer, followed by an explanation of why these subsidies are beneficial rather than propping up something silly. So that might take a bit of an essay, because you're making big claims.
It's not just a question of what is offered though, it's a question of how laborious the process is to be able to offer them.

The most recent example was the way in which EU regulation slowed our response and limited our options with Tata steel when it was struggling with energy prices double those in France and Germany and Chinese competition (which gets plenty of state aid). We did end up providing some support, we were more restricted and slowed in our response.

Tax carveouts for industry to set up shop in specific regions to regenerate them would also get tangled up in this kind of red tape (e.g. EU case against Apple in Ireland as an example of the risk, although obv. Ireland has enabling tax evasion as long-term strategy for its corporate sector we would struggle even if the goal was to try and regenerate the economy of wales or the north east).

Much of what we do will be in reaction to things which haven't happened yet.
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Re: Benefits of Brexit for Britain

Post by plodder » Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:09 pm

Which EU regulation hampered our approach to supporting Tata with high energy prices?
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sheldrake
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Re: Benefits of Brexit for Britain

Post by sheldrake » Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:37 pm

plodder wrote:
Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:09 pm
Which EU regulation hampered our approach to supporting Tata with high energy prices?
https://www.cranfield.ac.uk/som/press/t ... and-brexit
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Re: Benefits of Brexit for Britain

Post by sheldrake » Sat Oct 16, 2021 2:06 pm

And this parliamentary briefing explains how WTO rules we’re still signed up to are less restrictive https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/re ... s/sn06775/
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nekomatic
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Re: Benefits of Brexit for Britain

Post by nekomatic » Sat Oct 16, 2021 4:39 pm

sheldrake wrote:
Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:37 pm
plodder wrote:
Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:09 pm
Which EU regulation hampered our approach to supporting Tata with high energy prices?
https://www.cranfield.ac.uk/som/press/t ... and-brexit
That (a) says it’s unlikely that state aid would have made Tata viable in the longer term and (b) confirms it would probably have contravened WTO rules.
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Re: Benefits of Brexit for Britain

Post by sheldrake » Sat Oct 16, 2021 4:41 pm

nekomatic wrote:
Sat Oct 16, 2021 4:39 pm
sheldrake wrote:
Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:37 pm
plodder wrote:
Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:09 pm
Which EU regulation hampered our approach to supporting Tata with high energy prices?
https://www.cranfield.ac.uk/som/press/t ... and-brexit
That (a) says it’s unlikely that state aid would have made Tata viable in the longer term and (b) confirms it would probably have contravened WTO rules.
That is why you needed the second link.
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Re: Benefits of Brexit for Britain

Post by plodder » Sat Oct 16, 2021 5:16 pm

What part of the second link is relevant. Can you please form a more coherent argument because it’s wasting everyone’s time.
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Re: Benefits of Brexit for Britain

Post by nekomatic » Sat Oct 16, 2021 5:18 pm

So the massive benefit of leaving the EU is that we might be able to get away with illegally propping up a failing industry for a little bit until we get sued, rather than having to ask and be told no beforehand. Do I sound unconvinced?

Also that cuts both ways, because anyone who doesn’t like it can retaliate and wait for us to sue them.
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Re: Benefits of Brexit for Britain

Post by sheldrake » Sat Oct 16, 2021 5:25 pm

plodder wrote:
Sat Oct 16, 2021 5:16 pm
What part of the second link is relevant. Can you please form a more coherent argument because it’s wasting everyone’s time.
Parliamentary briefing linked above wrote: Although the definition of a ‘subsidy’ under the WTO regime is broadly similar to ‘state aid’ in EU law, the EU rules are a lot more stringent than the WTO rules on subsidies. The key differences are:

The default position in WTO rules is that subsidies are generally allowed, while EU rules consider subsidies to be generally illegal.
WTO rules apply to goods, but EU rules include services too.
EU rules are applied prospectively (i.e. legality must be proved before awarding any support), while WTO rules are only reactive, and are only triggered if a member country lodges a complaint.
WTO rules rely on state-to-state enforcement while under EU rules there are remedies available to businesses and individuals.
Under EU rules, a business has to repay illegal state aid. There is no such mechanism to remove anti-competitive effects under the WTO rules.
The bolded parts are important differences. The academic in the first link admitted to being hazy on what the differences would be, a parliamentary research briefing clarifies is.
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Re: Benefits of Brexit for Britain

Post by sheldrake » Sat Oct 16, 2021 5:26 pm

nekomatic wrote:
Sat Oct 16, 2021 5:18 pm
So the massive benefit of leaving the EU is that we might be able to get away with illegally propping up a failing industry for a little bit until we get sued, rather than having to ask and be told no beforehand. Do I sound unconvinced?
Please read the bolded sections above. This wouldn't be illegal any more.
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sheldrake
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Re: Benefits of Brexit for Britain

Post by sheldrake » Sat Oct 16, 2021 5:30 pm

Our steel producers are competing against foundries in dictatorships that build as many coal powered plants as they want

https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... -phase-out

China doesn't even always make it public it's building coal plants. Sometimes their central government makes all of the expected climate genuflections at summits and then the provinces quietly do wtf they like whilst pretending they haven't

A subsidy until we have cheaper next gen nuclear power of some kind is probably needed if we're serious about decarbonising our economy.
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plodder
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Re: Benefits of Brexit for Britain

Post by plodder » Sat Oct 16, 2021 5:34 pm

sheldrake wrote:
Sat Oct 16, 2021 5:25 pm
plodder wrote:
Sat Oct 16, 2021 5:16 pm
What part of the second link is relevant. Can you please form a more coherent argument because it’s wasting everyone’s time.
Parliamentary briefing linked above wrote: Although the definition of a ‘subsidy’ under the WTO regime is broadly similar to ‘state aid’ in EU law, the EU rules are a lot more stringent than the WTO rules on subsidies. The key differences are:

The default position in WTO rules is that subsidies are generally allowed, while EU rules consider subsidies to be generally illegal.
WTO rules apply to goods, but EU rules include services too.
EU rules are applied prospectively (i.e. legality must be proved before awarding any support), while WTO rules are only reactive, and are only triggered if a member country lodges a complaint.
WTO rules rely on state-to-state enforcement while under EU rules there are remedies available to businesses and individuals.
Under EU rules, a business has to repay illegal state aid. There is no such mechanism to remove anti-competitive effects under the WTO rules.
The bolded parts are important differences. The academic in the first link admitted to being hazy on what the differences would be, a parliamentary research briefing clarifies is.
oh, you’re saying WTO terms are not as strict as EU terms. f.cks sake, stop wasting everyone’s time, kids know this stuff. You act like you’re about to pull a rabbit out of a hat.
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Re: Benefits of Brexit for Britain

Post by sheldrake » Sat Oct 16, 2021 5:44 pm

plodder wrote:
Sat Oct 16, 2021 5:34 pm
oh, you’re saying WTO terms are not as strict as EU terms. f.cks sake, stop wasting everyone’s time, kids know this stuff. You act like you’re about to pull a rabbit out of a hat.
I'm also saying that they would have allowed us to save some of our metal foundries. Be a bit patient, I've built a sofabed today and taken loads of crap to the skip. Always terse on my phone.

eta: you did ask about this as if you were somehow skeptical that we'd now have more freedom to subsidise industry. That's an odd thing to do for somebody who has always known all this stuff forever because it's, like, obvious mate.
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temptar
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Re: Benefits of Brexit for Britain

Post by temptar » Sat Oct 16, 2021 5:57 pm

sheldrake wrote:
Sat Oct 16, 2021 5:44 pm
plodder wrote:
Sat Oct 16, 2021 5:34 pm
oh, you’re saying WTO terms are not as strict as EU terms. f.cks sake, stop wasting everyone’s time, kids know this stuff. You act like you’re about to pull a rabbit out of a hat.
I'm also saying that they would have allowed us to save some of our metal foundries. Be a bit patient, I've built a sofabed today and taken loads of crap to the skip. Always terse on my phone.

eta: you did ask about this as if you were somehow skeptical that we'd now have more freedom to subsidise industry. That's an odd thing to do for somebody who has always known all this stuff forever because it's, like, obvious mate.
Oh god, if you believe Tata would have been saved then some exminers in Durham and Wales have a bridge to sell you.
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plodder
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Re: Benefits of Brexit for Britain

Post by plodder » Sat Oct 16, 2021 6:11 pm

sheldrake wrote:
Sat Oct 16, 2021 5:44 pm
plodder wrote:
Sat Oct 16, 2021 5:34 pm
oh, you’re saying WTO terms are not as strict as EU terms. f.cks sake, stop wasting everyone’s time, kids know this stuff. You act like you’re about to pull a rabbit out of a hat.
I'm also saying that they would have allowed us to save some of our metal foundries. Be a bit patient, I've built a sofabed today and taken loads of crap to the skip. Always terse on my phone.

eta: you did ask about this as if you were somehow skeptical that we'd now have more freedom to subsidise industry. That's an odd thing to do for somebody who has always known all this stuff forever because it's, like, obvious mate.
No, I was skeptical there was much benefit to this, and I gave reasons. If you’re trying to figure out which skip the general waste goes in and which one is for the cardboard box from Ikea then I’d suggest don’t also try multitasking by posting on here?
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Re: Benefits of Brexit for Britain

Post by sheldrake » Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:20 pm

plodder wrote:
Sat Oct 16, 2021 6:11 pm
If you’re trying to figure out which skip the general waste goes in and which one is for the cardboard box from Ikea then I’d suggest don’t also try multitasking by posting on here?
It may have escaped your notice, but I still managed to post more links to reputable sources to support my points than anybody else posting in this thread today. Worth considering.
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plodder
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Re: Benefits of Brexit for Britain

Post by plodder » Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:51 pm

no you didn’t, because your point (wto is sparse as f.ck) didn’t need making and wasn’t responding to the conversation.
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Re: Benefits of Brexit for Britain

Post by sheldrake » Sat Oct 16, 2021 9:07 pm

plodder wrote:
Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:51 pm
no you didn’t, because your point (wto is sparse as f.ck) didn’t need making and wasn’t responding to the conversation.
Yes it was. You asked for an example of something we'd be able to do that we couldn't before; A Labour government freed of single market rules could've saved jobs at Tata steel, at least until workable energy sources were put in place that got the costs down and made them competitive without support again. Besides which, you're not the only person in the thread. There are people who aren't necessarily aware that WTO rules are much less restrictive; the academic in the first link I posted wasn't even sure.
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Re: Benefits of Brexit for Britain

Post by Bird on a Fire » Sat Oct 16, 2021 9:21 pm

It's weird that nobody cares about the brexit benefits I mentioned, which are more interesting and more important.
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Re: Benefits of Brexit for Britain

Post by sheldrake » Sat Oct 16, 2021 9:24 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Sat Oct 16, 2021 9:21 pm
It's weird that nobody cares about the brexit benefits I mentioned, which are more interesting and more important.
Tell us more about them, BoaF.

Some people only want to post in this thread to try and prove that a benefit I present isn't real.
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Re: Benefits of Brexit for Britain

Post by Millennie Al » Sun Oct 17, 2021 2:52 am

sheldrake wrote:
Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:01 am
plodder wrote:
Sat Oct 16, 2021 7:57 am
You do need to be clear on what exactly you think we gain from working in a looser governance environment
Faster decision making that's more accountable to UK voters.
The UK government is only very faintly accountable to UK voters. Between general elections, it's completely unaccountable. As we have seen, the PM can do whatever he likes in our name, and there's nothing we can do about it.
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