Scrutable

Chris Preston wrote: Sat Feb 06, 2021 10:56 amI am also not permitted to do any plumbing more complex that changing a tap or building an irrigation system. That is because people in the past have connected their storm water to the sewer causing blocks worth of back up during heavy rains.

To be fair, it never even occurred to me until we bought a house and had to get drain stuff done that there even were different sewers for rainwater and foul water.

We're a bit in love with our plumber. On his last visit (tap repairs had got a bit beyond my comfort level), he gave me lessons on what he was doing so that we don't have to call him out for piddly jobs in the future.

It's definitely essential that someone is able to do these things but not that everyone is able to.

I think it was Yuval Noah Harari's book, Sapiens, in which I recently read that hunter gatherers are likely the most broadly skilled humans of any society type because everyone has to be able to do many things in a highly skilled way, whereas modern humans generally need to be able to do a couple of specialised tasks well, while outsourcing most things.

nekomatic wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 12:36 am

Chris Preston wrote: Sat Feb 06, 2021 10:56 amI am also not permitted to do any plumbing more complex that changing a tap or building an irrigation system. That is because people in the past have connected their storm water to the sewer causing blocks worth of back up during heavy rains.

To be fair, it never even occurred to me until we bought a house and had to get drain stuff done that there even were different sewers for rainwater and foul water.

Depends where you are a bit too. Combined sewers used to be the norm in the UK, whereas separate sewers are more typical in the USA and Australia.

Combined sewers have the disadvantage that if it rains a lot you risk getting sewage everywhere. Separate sewers are more prone to getting bunged up with fatbergs in cold weather.

Stephanie wrote: Sat Feb 06, 2021 10:00 am

Millennie Al wrote: Sat Feb 06, 2021 4:37 am

Stephanie wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 7:57 pm I totally get that people might have reasons for changing a plug. The point I'm making is it isn't an essential skill.

Changing a plug isn't an essential skill, but children should be taught that when they need to do that sort of task they should start with a presumption they can learn how to do it rather than assume they're incapable and have to get someone else to do it. And this is especially the case for things which might be subject to sterotyping - they should be very suspicious of ideas that a type of task is not really suited to whole groups of people.

Where have I said people should get someone else to do it?

You didn't. But I'm not saying you did. I am merely expanding on a point you made.

If you want something done you can:

1. do it yourself by
   1. knowing how to do it already
   2. learning how to do it
2. getting someone else to do it
3. not getting it done at all

You were eliminating 1.1 and I was then advocating 1.2 rather than 2. Not disagreeing with you!

Squeak wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 2:08 am ... I recently read that hunter gatherers are likely the most broadly skilled humans of any society type because everyone has to be able to do many things in a highly skilled way, whereas modern humans generally need to be able to do a couple of specialised tasks well, while outsourcing most things.

The French historian, archaeologist and crime writer using pen-name Fred Vargas has a trio of characters studying different periods of history. One is an investigator of hunter-gatherer practices and often adapts these to present-day life. They are introduced in the book with English title "The Tree Evangelists" and also appear in later books, particularly the hunter-gatherer.

In Norway sailors were traditionally known for wide skillset and broad fast-response adaptability. In the ages of sail such qualities were necessary to survive and help the country prosper.

The firefighters - rescue forces in France have a traditional proud claim: "Pompiers à tout faire" - Pump guys deal with everything.

bmforre wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 4:28 am

Squeak wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 2:08 am ... I recently read that hunter gatherers are likely the most broadly skilled humans of any society type because everyone has to be able to do many things in a highly skilled way, whereas modern humans generally need to be able to do a couple of specialised tasks well, while outsourcing most things.

The French historian, archaeologist and crime writer using pen-name Fred Vargas has a trio of characters studying different periods of history. One is an investigator of hunter-gatherer practices and often adapts these to present-day life. They are introduced in the book with English title "The Tree Evangelists" and also appear in later books, particularly the hunter-gatherer.

In Norway sailors were traditionally known for wide skillset and broad fast-response adaptability. In the ages of sail such qualities were necessary to survive and help the country prosper.

The firefighters - rescue forces in France have a traditional proud claim: "Pompiers à tout faire" - Pump guys deal with everything.

"The Three Evangelists" (unless you're Irish). My father thought this was a brilliant book and bought me a copy (which I've still not read I'm sorry to say).

Millennie Al wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 2:32 am

Stephanie wrote: Sat Feb 06, 2021 10:00 am

Millennie Al wrote: Sat Feb 06, 2021 4:37 am

Changing a plug isn't an essential skill, but children should be taught that when they need to do that sort of task they should start with a presumption they can learn how to do it rather than assume they're incapable and have to get someone else to do it. And this is especially the case for things which might be subject to sterotyping - they should be very suspicious of ideas that a type of task is not really suited to whole groups of people.

Where have I said people should get someone else to do it?

You didn't. But I'm not saying you did. I am merely expanding on a point you made.

If you want something done you can:

1. do it yourself by
   1. knowing how to do it already
   2. learning how to do it
2. getting someone else to do it
3. not getting it done at all

You were eliminating 1.1 and I was then advocating 1.2 rather than 2. Not disagreeing with you!

Ah fair enough then.

dyqik wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 8:00 pm

Stephanie wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 7:57 pm I totally get that people might have reasons for changing a plug. The point I'm making is it isn't an essential skill.

In my experience there's more often a need to change a light fixture or a light switch than a plug.

Both are pretty much the same skill as changing a plug, but as you say, most people can and will pay someone to do it.

One of them involves switching the power off in the house, to avoid being killed. Same skill, different ability.

plodder wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 7:56 am

dyqik wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 8:00 pm

Stephanie wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 7:57 pm I totally get that people might have reasons for changing a plug. The point I'm making is it isn't an essential skill.

In my experience there's more often a need to change a light fixture or a light switch than a plug.

Both are pretty much the same skill as changing a plug, but as you say, most people can and will pay someone to do it.

One of them involves switching the power off in the house, to avoid being killed. Same skill, different ability.

Light fixtures - at least traditional ones - are also really badly designed and are actively dangerous. There is nowhere else in electrics that exposed metal is normally live. We’ve only still got them because of inertia.

Grumble wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 8:56 am

plodder wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 7:56 am

dyqik wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 8:00 pm

In my experience there's more often a need to change a light fixture or a light switch than a plug.

Both are pretty much the same skill as changing a plug, but as you say, most people can and will pay someone to do it.

One of them involves switching the power off in the house, to avoid being killed. Same skill, different ability.

Light fixtures - at least traditional ones - are also really badly designed and are actively dangerous. There is nowhere else in electrics that exposed metal is normally live. We’ve only still got them because of inertia.

You've just reminded me that twenty years ago the light fixtures in loftress's house in Canberra struck me as weird but obviously much safer than British ones. There was some sort of bayonet fitting, not for the lightbulb but for the whole pendant to plug into a socket in the ceiling.

In NZ things have been differently safer, in that both of the houses I've lived in have had low voltage lighting. There's a 240v lighting ring but every individual lighting socket has a little step-down transformer wired in, so I only need to face 12v when replacing bulbs.

The mains plug standard here is utter shite, flimsy and unsafe, though.

dyqik wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 8:00 pm

Stephanie wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 7:57 pm I totally get that people might have reasons for changing a plug. The point I'm making is it isn't an essential skill.

In my experience there's more often a need to change a light fixture or a light switch than a plug.

Both are pretty much the same skill as changing a plug, but as you say, most people can and will pay someone to do it.

Within living memory, when "That's life" was on TV, electrical goods came without a plug and you had to buy and fit your own, or you could pay the shop to fit one. This led to badly fitted plugs, the wrong fuses, fires and electric shocks. This in turn led to the moulded on plug as standard, which led to fires and electric shocks as they were initially badly made and some had bits of wire sticking out through the moulded plastic or internal shorts.

I keep leads with moulded on plugs as it is frequently easier to change the whole lead rather than find a new plug. Otherwise I buy MK plugs mail order off Farnell.

Submersible pond pumps come without a plug for some legal reason of the "These are immersed in water, that's not in the British standard, you can't sell that ready to just plug in" sort of a way.

I consider basic electric safety to be and essential life skill. You might not need to fit a plug, but spotting a badly fitted one is a lifesaver.

Boustrophedon wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 2:38 pm I consider basic electric safety to be and essential life skill. You might not need to fit a plug, but spotting a badly fitted one is a lifesaver.

As a former* Physics teacher the electricity part of the syllabus used to fall on me.

Among the general pedagogical concepts were the ideas that:-

Abstract concepts bed in better when connected to something in the students life as not only is it then actually relevant to them but also the poor buggers can't look at a toaster without being reminded of bimetallic strips or whatever every morning.

While the learning style concept is bollocks, approaching the same bit of content from multiple angles helped reinforce the learning.

Any sort of practical activity helped engagement particularly among the numpty kids.


As such I always used to keep in the "wiring the plug" lesson near the end as a recap lesson as it allowed you to revisit circuit diagrams, mains electricity, electrical safety, resistance, power and series & parallel circuits even though IIRC that "plug wiring" is no longer included in the specification.

It was also trivial to differentiate for different abilities, your Set 5's would cheerfully spend an hour dismantling plugs and colouring circuit diagrams while Set 1's would be calculating the amount of time it would take to melt a 3A fuse if you were in the process of electrocuting yourself.

Not only would you sneak a lot of learning into them when they weren't noticing but everyone tended to enjoy it and it was often the go-to for an electricity revision lesson. Sad to say but for a lot of the girls that might be the first time they'd been allowed/expected to play with a screwdriver, if you had time it was fun to have boys vs girls races to see who could reassemble a plug the quickest.**


*happily.


**see things like that make me miss it but then I remember its the 90% of your life you waste on pointless Govian boxticking b.llsh.t that makes me glad to be clear of it all.

If I was designing the curriculum, thanks to LW's informative above post, I'd definitely keep changing a plug in the curriculum.

Sewing on a button is non-negotiable. If I never have to sew on another button in my life for some inept bloke, it will be too soon.

Shoelaces can sod off. In my world velcro will be the number one fastening for shoes. I bl..dy hate retying them, I just knot the buggers and ruin the shoes instead.

I think the main difference in my education system would be cultural. I hate exams (not for me, I'm good at them, for others) because they're just so bl..dy inflexible, they test entirely the wrong things and exist entirely to funnel kids into social strata where they will stay forever. I want secondary school to be more modular. I want kids to be able to learn at their own pace, so there'd be a minimum graduation standard and full classroom support for kids who benefit from that while also providing distance based alternatives so more able, motivated kids can excel. Academic stuff that can be done by lecture can be internet based so every kid can have access to the lectures of the very best teachers. Teachers who excel at personal support can focus on that, those who make the superb hands-on learning resources can focus on that, and so on. I'm aiming for a culture which motivates learning by connecting it with more freedom, from the classroom, from the limitations of others, from the crab bucket. I want the material to graduate gracefully from spoon feeding to absolute independence, rather than the enormous steps from school to college to uni we have now. I want kids who hate maths and just want to get it out of the way to be able to blitz it and then concentrate on stuff they find more interesting, I want the kids who love it to have access and support with material as difficult as they want.

I think, with the technology we have now this is totally achievable. Which is cool.

Edit for spelling as per.