Supreme Court Ruling on Trans Rights in Equality Act

[Tristan]

Thinking about Casta Semanya, and those boxers people got excited about, people who are cis women but not conventionally feminine seem to get some hatred.

I guess we’ll find out before too long how true this actually is.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2025/ ... oxing-says

[Grumble]

Thinking about Casta Semanya, and those boxers people got excited about, people who are cis women but not conventionally feminine seem to get some hatred.

I guess we’ll find out before too long how true this actually is.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2025/ ... oxing-says

I don’t know her details, but you seem to be struggling with the definition of cis woman. It doesn’t take chromosomes into account. The definition is if they were assigned female at birth and identify as a woman. It’s possible to meet that definition and have XY chromosomes.

[Tristan]

Thinking about Casta Semanya, and those boxers people got excited about, people who are cis women but not conventionally feminine seem to get some hatred.

I guess we’ll find out before too long how true this actually is.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2025/ ... oxing-says

I don’t know her details, but you seem to be struggling with the definition of cis woman. It doesn’t take chromosomes into account. The definition is if they were assigned female at birth and identify as a woman. It’s possible to meet that definition and have XY chromosomes.

That assumes observation at birth is infallible. Mistakes happen, as may have been the case here if, as seems likely, Khelif has a DSD that affects males.

If we're going to insist someone with a DSD where male androgenization occurs but who was marked as "female" on the birth certificate is a cis woman then cis starts to lose some of its meaning as commonly understood. It will mean you can have biologically male cis women.

[Grumble]

I guess we’ll find out before too long how true this actually is.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2025/ ... oxing-says

I don’t know her details, but you seem to be struggling with the definition of cis woman. It doesn’t take chromosomes into account. The definition is if they were assigned female at birth and identify as a woman. It’s possible to meet that definition and have XY chromosomes.

That assumes observation at birth is infallible. Mistakes happen, as may have been the case here if, as seems likely, Khelif has a DSD that affects males.

If we're going to insist someone with a DSD where male androgenization occurs but who was marked as "female" on the birth certificate is a cis woman then cis starts to lose some of its meaning as commonly understood. It will mean you can have biologically male cis women.

Yes you can.

[noggins]

sorry. cocaines

[bjn]

Possibly, just possibly, man and woman aren't 2 categories you can neatly put every human being into so we should stop trying so hard to enforce it and let people decide for themselves.

[Tristan]

Possibly, just possibly, man and woman aren't 2 categories you can neatly put every human being into so we should stop trying so hard to enforce it and let people decide for themselves.

So let people compete in either sporting sex category based on their wishes alone?

[dyqik]

Possibly, just possibly, man and woman aren't 2 categories you can neatly put every human being into so we should stop trying so hard to enforce it and let people decide for themselves.

So let people compete in either sporting sex category based on their wishes alone?

You should consider that many sports are maybe just badly designed for the modern world, and should be changed or abandoned.

Boxing and rowing manage to have separate categories based on the athletes characteristics. There are also age categories in most sports. Gender categories aren't sacrosanct, and it's magical thinking to suggest otherwise.

In almost all individual sports, only genetic freaks with massive advantages in their backgrounds can win at international levels.

[bjn]

What dyqik says.

And sport is a wedge issue being used by the worst of the bigots to launch wider discrimination policies against trans people.

[Grumble]

Possibly, just possibly, man and woman aren't 2 categories you can neatly put every human being into so we should stop trying so hard to enforce it and let people decide for themselves.

So let people compete in either sporting sex category based on their wishes alone?

It’s not their wishes alone, no-one wishes to be classed male or female at birth. I think, based on your username, that you identify as male. If I came along tomorrow and said that based on a test that biologically speaking (for a narrow definition of biology) you are actually female, would you flip how you think of yourself?

[Tessa K]

Possibly, just possibly, man and woman aren't 2 categories you can neatly put every human being into so we should stop trying so hard to enforce it and let people decide for themselves.

So let people compete in either sporting sex category based on their wishes alone?

It’s not their wishes alone, no-one wishes to be classed male or female at birth. I think, based on your username, that you identify as male. If I came along tomorrow and said that based on a test that biologically speaking (for a narrow definition of biology) you are actually female, would you flip how you think of yourself?

Really good question. None of us has any idea what lurks inside us. This makes me think of Rawls' Veil of ignorance.

[Gfamily]

Possibly, just possibly, man and woman aren't 2 categories you can neatly put every human being into so we should stop trying so hard to enforce it and let people decide for themselves.

Chimerism can mess up blood testing too, so a genetic blood test may not be sufficient.
Some interesting instances here, including a birth mother who is genetically her children's aunt,

[Tristan]

Possibly, just possibly, man and woman aren't 2 categories you can neatly put every human being into so we should stop trying so hard to enforce it and let people decide for themselves.

So let people compete in either sporting sex category based on their wishes alone?

It’s not their wishes alone, no-one wishes to be classed male or female at birth. I think, based on your username, that you identify as male. If I came along tomorrow and said that based on a test that biologically speaking (for a narrow definition of biology) you are actually female, would you flip how you think of yourself?

How I think of myself isn't really that relevant though. Yes it must be weird, unsettling, upsetting, distressing etc etc. to find something like that out, but in something like the example of the boxer their feelings about the matter and how they see themselves are secondary to what they actually are. Khelif may not see herself as male, but it's quite possible she actually is and is disqualified from the female category as a result. We may find out soon.

The fact Khelif's statements are all about appeals to emotion (feels like a girl, grew up as a girl etc.) rather than anything more concrete indicates there's a definite chance the tests wouldn't come up with the result she wants. If she had something more concrete I'm sure she'd have said something by now.

[Chris Preston]

And sport is a wedge issue being used by the worst of the bigots to launch wider discrimination policies against trans people.

Yes. This is a "slippery slope" claim that is being used to sow prejudice against transgender people. The vast majority of transgender people are never going to participate in sport, let alone competitive sport.

There really are only a small number of transgender athletes who are good enough to participate in international sports. This is being dealt with at the international level through a variety of rule changes depending on the sport.

[Sciolus]

Khelif may not see herself as male, but it's quite possible she actually is and is disqualified from the female category as a result. We may find out soon.

We won't find out anything useful or interesting. All we will find out is how some random committee, whose sole motivation is making as much money as possible, have made the procrustean decision to fit complex reality into their tidy fantasy pigeonholes.

[Imrael]

Basically agreeing with Chris. Sporting regulators should be trusted to regulate sports (in as far as we trust any institution) and if they want gender-based categories (which most physical sports will) they should define their criteria publicly.

I cant help the uneasy feeling that if Casta Semanya or Imane Khelif were conventionally pretty white women this controversy would not have occurred. At least published criteria and testing (at professional levels) would remove that from the picture.

I'd also note that neither of these athletes are said to be transgender in the widely used sense of voluntary transformation.

[Chris Preston]

I'd also note that neither of these athletes are said to be transgender in the widely used sense of voluntary transformation.

This as well. I am often seeing people using them as examples of the problem when complaining about transgender people in sports.

[bjn]

I also find the genetic reductionism horrible.

Should someone with XX male syndrome be allowed to compete in women’s events? They will male genitalia and can be very masculine. If they are “really” women, in the same way as all people with XY chromosomes are “really” men, because of their genetics, then if follows that they should, using the same logic that all people with XY chromosomes should be banned.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/XX_male_syndrome

[Grumble]

I also find the genetic reductionism horrible.

Should someone with XX male syndrome be allowed to compete in women’s events? They will male genitalia and can be very masculine. If they are “really” women, in the same way as all people with XY chromosomes are “really” men, because of their genetics, then if follows that they should, using the same logic that all people with XY chromosomes should be banned.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/XX_male_syndrome

Yes, I mentioned a narrow definition of biology being used, by which I meant using only chromosomes as if that was all there was to biology of sex.

[bolo]

The vast majority of transgender people are never going to participate in sport, let alone competitive sport.

There really are only a small number of transgender athletes who are good enough to participate in international sports.

I agree that this is being used as a wedge issue, but here in the USA at least, it's more about sports in schools than it is about international sports. So a lot more people, numerically, though still a tiny fraction.

[noggins]

How I think of myself isn't really that relevant though. Yes it must be weird, unsettling, upsetting, distressing etc etc. to find something like that out, but in something like the example of the boxer their feelings about the matter and how they see themselves are secondary to what they actually are. Khelif may not see herself as male, but it's quite possible she actually is and is disqualified from the female category as a result. We may find out soon.

The fact Khelif's statements are all about appeals to emotion (feels like a girl, grew up as a girl etc.) rather than anything more concrete indicates there's a definite chance the tests wouldn't come up with the result she wants. If she had something more concrete I'm sure she'd have said something by now.

Ok but which bogs must they use?

[Tristan]

How I think of myself isn't really that relevant though. Yes it must be weird, unsettling, upsetting, distressing etc etc. to find something like that out, but in something like the example of the boxer their feelings about the matter and how they see themselves are secondary to what they actually are. Khelif may not see herself as male, but it's quite possible she actually is and is disqualified from the female category as a result. We may find out soon.

The fact Khelif's statements are all about appeals to emotion (feels like a girl, grew up as a girl etc.) rather than anything more concrete indicates there's a definite chance the tests wouldn't come up with the result she wants. If she had something more concrete I'm sure she'd have said something by now.

Ok but which bogs must they use?

f.ck me, you guys are obsessed with toilets.

[dyqik]

How I think of myself isn't really that relevant though. Yes it must be weird, unsettling, upsetting, distressing etc etc. to find something like that out, but in something like the example of the boxer their feelings about the matter and how they see themselves are secondary to what they actually are. Khelif may not see herself as male, but it's quite possible she actually is and is disqualified from the female category as a result. We may find out soon.

The fact Khelif's statements are all about appeals to emotion (feels like a girl, grew up as a girl etc.) rather than anything more concrete indicates there's a definite chance the tests wouldn't come up with the result she wants. If she had something more concrete I'm sure she'd have said something by now.

Ok but which bogs must they use?

f.ck me, you guys are obsessed with toilets.

You're the only one obsessed with who uses which toilet, and what kind of genitals they were born with. As well as being obsessed with who gets to play which game.

This is just mocking your weird obsession.

[noggins]

Im intrigued where hes going to assign someone who he believes both has a vagina and is not international-competitive-sport-female.

[Tristan]

Ok but which bogs must they use?

f.ck me, you guys are obsessed with toilets.

You're the only one obsessed with who uses which toilet, and what kind of genitals they were born with. As well as being obsessed with who gets to play which game.

This is just mocking your weird obsession.

I'm not the one who keeps bringing up toilets. And I'm not the one who brought up Semenya or Khelif.