Scrutable

sheldrake wrote: Sun Oct 03, 2021 8:32 pm Empty shelves in Brussels https://www.brusselstimes.com/belgium/1 ... es-filled/

Final paragraph from the above link:

In the meantime, Carrefour shops across Belgium are still experiencing issues following a strike at the Logistics Nivelles distribution centre at the start of the week.

The photo in the article is of a Carrefour shop. The empty shelves there are caused by the strike, not a driver shortage or covid. Do you actually read the stuff you link to?

JQH wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 6:44 am

sheldrake wrote: Sun Oct 03, 2021 8:32 pm Empty shelves in Brussels https://www.brusselstimes.com/belgium/1 ... es-filled/

Final paragraph from the above link:

In the meantime, Carrefour shops across Belgium are still experiencing issues following a strike at the Logistics Nivelles distribution centre at the start of the week.

The photo in the article is of a Carrefour shop. The empty shelves there are caused by the strike, not a driver shortage or covid. Do you actually read the stuff you link to?

Did you notice the headline about a Belgian driver ahortage?

temptar wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 5:55 am

sheldrake wrote: Sun Oct 03, 2021 8:32 pm Empty shelves in Brussels https://www.brusselstimes.com/belgium/1 ... es-filled/

The empty shelves in that report relate specifically to a distribution centre strike, not a generalised supply chain issue. As someone who shops regularly in Carrefour, it hasn't even been noticeable.

On the question of lorry drivers, that is forward planning, it seems to me.

But it interests me that you are engaging in whataboutery. That tends to be an acknowledgement, despite previous assertions, that you recognise issues with supply chains in the UK but cannot acknowledge the underlying causes. How many strikes are there in UK distribution centres?

I guess none, because otherwise, your putrid anti-worker pro-Tory media would be screeching about how angry selfish workers are destroying global Britain, wouldn't they?

I think you missed the earlier links about global supply chain issues.

Andrew Adonis is a super-loon

More on global supply chain issues
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... -shortages
https://thehill.com/opinion/internation ... ws-what-to

I mean, Andrew Adonis re-tweeted that post which very much looks like it's from Private Eye.

If you want to start a "Global Supply Chain Disruption following Covid-19" then go for it, this thread is (partly) for eye-rolling at the impact ending freedom of movement has had on the UK. I suppose other EU countries are also providing temporary visas for lorry drivers.

plodder wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 9:03 am I mean, Andrew Adonis re-tweeted that post which very much looks like it's from Private Eye.

If you want to start a "Global Supply Chain Disruption following Covid-19" then go for it, this thread is (partly) for eye-rolling at the impact ending freedom of movement has had on the UK. I suppose other EU countries are also providing temporary visas for lorry drivers.

It's legitimate to question whether something is actually a result of ending freedom of movement in the same thread where it's claimed. Other EU countries have significant driver shortages too. This is old news.

I'm sure you wouldn't want to blindly accept that every bad thing which happened was 'because brexit' any more than you would want brexiters to claim every good thing that happened was caused by brexit.

sheldrake wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 7:33 am

JQH wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 6:44 am

sheldrake wrote: Sun Oct 03, 2021 8:32 pm Empty shelves in Brussels https://www.brusselstimes.com/belgium/1 ... es-filled/

Final paragraph from the above link:

In the meantime, Carrefour shops across Belgium are still experiencing issues following a strike at the Logistics Nivelles distribution centre at the start of the week.

The photo in the article is of a Carrefour shop. The empty shelves there are caused by the strike, not a driver shortage or covid. Do you actually read the stuff you link to?

Did you notice the headline about a Belgian driver ahortage?

Yes I did but as the article makes clear if you read right through to the very end, the empty shelves were a result of the strike, not the driver shortage.

sheldrake wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 9:07 am

plodder wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 9:03 am I mean, Andrew Adonis re-tweeted that post which very much looks like it's from Private Eye.

If you want to start a "Global Supply Chain Disruption following Covid-19" then go for it, this thread is (partly) for eye-rolling at the impact ending freedom of movement has had on the UK. I suppose other EU countries are also providing temporary visas for lorry drivers.

It's legitimate to question whether something is actually a result of ending freedom of movement in the same thread where it's claimed. Other EU countries have significant driver shortages too. This is old news.

I'm sure you wouldn't want to blindly accept that every bad thing which happened was 'because brexit' any more than you would want brexiters to claim every good thing that happened was caused by brexit.

There is a natural experiment which is Northern Ireland, as in terms of its economy it is effectively part of the EU. You could look at, for example, fuel shortages and compare NI to the rest of the UK.

Good shout, chops. Lead story in the Belfast Telegraph is about a hike in caravan park fees. Nothing about queues for fuel etc.

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/

Woodchopper wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 9:39 am There is a natural experiment which is Northern Ireland, as in terms of its economy it is effectively part of the EU. You could look at, for example, fuel shortages and compare NI to the rest of the UK.

Northern Ireland is subject to the same immigration/right to work rules as the rest of the UK. The difference is that lots of Northern Irish citizens also have Irish passports which allow them to travel around the EU as EU citizens, but that right isn't bi-directional; an EU migrant looking to work in Northern Ireland has to follow the same rules as if entering the UK.

Northern Irish motorists haven't been panic buying https://www.irishcentral.com/news/uks-f ... rn-ireland
(Fuel is readily available just fine outside the south east of the UK, too, including where I live).

Where Northern Ireland is different from the rest of the UK is in its customs rules w.r.t the EU.

I mean, more specifically, we could ask the question, "Is Northern Ireland experiencing the same fuel shortages as the rest of the UK?"

And lo! We have an answer.

Um.. you know that it's no easier for an EU driver to go and work in Northern Ireland than in the rest of the UK, right?

There's also a significant difference between the home counties/London and the rest of the UK. No queues and no longer any £30 max purchase where I live, never been any noticeable food shortages. You might as well blame extinction rebellion.

4 weeks worth of tanker cargo queued up out at sea for US ports due to labour shortage

https://news.yahoo.com/cargo-ships-anch ... 22286.html

sheldrake wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 9:47 am
(Fuel is readily available just fine outside the south east of the UK, too, including where I live).

Could you let the 5 petrol stations I drove past on my way to work with “no fuel” signs and cordoned off pumps know that, ta.
I’m not in the SE of the UK, still in the UK mind you.

TAFKAsoveda wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 10:18 am

sheldrake wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 9:47 am
(Fuel is readily available just fine outside the south east of the UK, too, including where I live).

Could you let the 5 petrol stations I drove past on my way to work with “no fuel” signs and cordoned off pumps know that, ta.
I’m not in the SE of the UK, still in the UK mind you.

Whereabouts?

sheldrake wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 10:04 am 4 weeks worth of tanker cargo queued up out at sea for US ports due to labour shortage

https://news.yahoo.com/cargo-ships-anch ... 22286.html

Are you seriously suggesting that the cause of problem A affecting ports in the USA is exactly the same as the cause of problem B affecting petrol stations and supermarkets in the UK? Because all I see from your posts is several containerships worth of delusion trying to convince yourself that Brexit has owt to do with Britain's problems.

I mean, Ireland is an island off the coast of Europe too, admittedly monumentally foodsecure but it did also plan for a chunk of its logistics routes to disappear and consequently is grand.

Maybe you might want to consider that the logistics issues you have in the UK do not necessarily share an underlying cause with problems in US ports given that neither is universal in Western democracies. Maybe consider what is different about the US and UK. Oh yeah, their populations nothing something really stupid in 2016, and not only that, in the UK, they repeatedly doubled down.

sheldrake wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 10:21 am

TAFKAsoveda wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 10:18 am

sheldrake wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 9:47 am
(Fuel is readily available just fine outside the south east of the UK, too, including where I live).

Could you let the 5 petrol stations I drove past on my way to work with “no fuel” signs and cordoned off pumps know that, ta.
I’m not in the SE of the UK, still in the UK mind you.

Whereabouts?

Herefordshire/Worcestershire - mix of out of town, in town and supermarket petrol stations, all different companies. So if you let them know they are wrong that would be fab.

temptar wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 10:29 am

Are you seriously suggesting that the cause of problem A affecting ports in the USA is exactly the same as the cause of problem B affecting petrol stations and supermarkets in the UK? Because all I see from your posts is several containerships worth of delusion trying to convince yourself that Brexit has owt to do with Britain's problems.

Labour shortages due to Covid are global.

I mean, Ireland is an island off the coast of Europe too, admittedly monumentally foodsecure but it did also plan for a chunk of its logistics routes to disappear and consequently is grand.

Northern Ireland isn't experiencing fuel shortages because the population there hasn't been panic buying. They don't have any more access to fuel tanker drivers than England and Wales do.

I thought EU HGV drivers were allowed to work in the Republic of Ireland, and therefore can also serve Northern Ireland?

With less paperwork and delays at the border for direct Continent-Ireland shipping?

Bird on a Fire wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 1:01 pm I thought EU HGV drivers were allowed to work in the Republic of Ireland, and therefore can also serve Northern Ireland?

With less paperwork and delays at the border for direct Continent-Ireland shipping?

Unlikely to make any difference for fuel tankers. There have been more non-fuel shortages in NI than the rest of the UK.

sheldrake wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 1:13 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 1:01 pm I thought EU HGV drivers were allowed to work in the Republic of Ireland, and therefore can also serve Northern Ireland?

With less paperwork and delays at the border for direct Continent-Ireland shipping?

Unlikely to make any difference for fuel tankers. There have been more non-fuel shortages in NI than the rest of the UK.

Was that because of supermarkets bringing meat products from Great Britain to Northern Ireland facing new bureaucracy?

shpalman wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 2:17 pm

sheldrake wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 1:13 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 1:01 pm I thought EU HGV drivers were allowed to work in the Republic of Ireland, and therefore can also serve Northern Ireland?

With less paperwork and delays at the border for direct Continent-Ireland shipping?

Unlikely to make any difference for fuel tankers. There have been more non-fuel shortages in NI than the rest of the UK.

Was that because of supermarkets bringing meat products from Great Britain to Northern Ireland facing new bureaucracy?

Is Northern Ireland protected from shortages due to it's special status with greater EU access, or not? lol

Yes, having a customs border in the Irish sea is an unacceptable condition that was only ever meant to be temporary whilst the EU worked with us to solve it in good faith. They haven't been doing that so article 16 is likely to get invoked soon.

sheldrake wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 1:13 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 1:01 pm I thought EU HGV drivers were allowed to work in the Republic of Ireland, and therefore can also serve Northern Ireland?

With less paperwork and delays at the border for direct Continent-Ireland shipping?

Unlikely to make any difference for fuel tankers. There have been more non-fuel shortages in NI than the rest of the UK.

Why did you not mention that instead of this?

sheldrake wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 9:51 am Um.. you know that it's no easier for an EU driver to go and work in Northern Ireland than in the rest of the UK, right?

Could it by any chance be because you are just making it up as you go along?

The non-fuel shortages in NI have been mostly due to GB-NI shipping and customs/inspection difficulties. There is no critical shortage of HGV drivers in Ireland and they can roll across the open border with no issues around customs, VAT, goods inspection, ID cards, driving licences, or ability to work, all of which are maintained by NI's continuing membership of the Single Market and Customs Union.

sheldrake wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 2:23 pm Yes, having a customs border in the Irish sea is an unacceptable condition that was only ever meant to be temporary whilst the EU worked with us to solve it in good faith. They haven't been doing that so article 16 is likely to get invoked soon.

Can you point us to the article in the Withdrawal Agreement or the EU-UK Trade and Cooperation Agreement which mentions this "meant to be temporary" thing? Otherwise, you do know that international treaties consist only of the text on the paper that the parties sign, and not the thoughts that one side might have had in their head at the time, right?