Scrutable

Fishnut wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 8:07 pm It really is remarkable how these stories are framed. Time and time again we see the police and press accepting and repeating the excuses of men who murder women.

I keep thinking I’ve heard the worst stories and the worst excusing of violence and there’s always new depths.

In case you thought the UK police are somehow uniquely incapable of understanding how to tackle male violence towards women, I'm here to disabuse you of that notion. For example: New South Wales police have proposed a consent app. Even a cursory consideration of this shows how f.cking stupid an idea it is.

Press agree.
Put your phone down.
Start having sex.
Situation changes and you withdraw consent.
He refuses to listen and ends up raping you.
You go to the police.
"But look at your app, it says here you consented. There's no case, bye-bye."

Fishnut wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 11:15 pm In case you thought the UK police are somehow uniquely incapable of understanding how to tackle male violence towards women, I'm here to disabuse you of that notion. For example: New South Wales police have proposed a consent app. Even a cursory consideration of this shows how f.cking stupid an idea it is.

Press agree.
Put your phone down.
Start having sex.
Situation changes and you withdraw consent.
He refuses to listen and ends up raping you.
You go to the police.
"But look at your app, it says here you consented. There's no case, bye-bye."

I suspect the U.K. police are one of the better forces worldwide for this, as horrifying as that statement is.

Fishnut wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 11:15 pm In case you thought the UK police are somehow uniquely incapable of understanding how to tackle male violence towards women, I'm here to disabuse you of that notion. For example: New South Wales police have proposed a consent app. Even a cursory consideration of this shows how f.cking stupid an idea it is.

Press agree.
Put your phone down.
Start having sex.
Situation changes and you withdraw consent.
He refuses to listen and ends up raping you.
You go to the police.
"But look at your app, it says here you consented. There's no case, bye-bye."

Also this NSW Officer's (failed) defence against sacking

https://amp.theguardian.com/australia-n ... xist-texts

egbert26 wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 6:57 pm

Fishnut wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 10:32 am There's been another mass shooting in the US. This time Atlanta, Georgia where a 21-year old white man attacked three Asian massage parlours.

Though the exact motive behind the shootings is not yet known, police were asked at a press conference whether the attacks could be connected to a broader rise in hate crimes against Asian-Americans in the aftermath of the Covid pandemic.

If this is about racism, why am I posting about it here, you ask. Well, because of who was killed:

The attacks collectively killed eight people, including six Asian-American women, one white man and one white woman.

Seven out of the eight victims were women. Even if it is primarily a racist attack, the fact he went after places employing women should not be ignored. Fortunately, because the attacker is white, he was taken into police custody rather than shot and killed so we may get to find out his motivations.

He had a bad day:

https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1372203730481864713

Sex addiction is not a clinical diagnosis and yet it gets used an excuse even though there is no obvious link between any kind of addiction and racist murder.

Tessa K wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 9:41 am Sex addiction is not a clinical diagnosis and yet it gets used an excuse even though there is no obvious link between any kind of addiction and racist murder.

Absolutely agree that "sex addiction" is used as an excuse by all sorts of people for all sorts of awful things. And that in general sexual offences are not caused by such a disorder. However, "6C72 Compulsive sexual behaviour disorder" has been added to ICD-11. So it does exist as a clinical diagnosis.

Not saying the diagnosis should exist, or that it has anything to do with this case or most violence against women, just that the diagnosis does exist in the ICD. Not in the latest edition of the DSM however.

This is a useful thread of links on how 'sex addiction' isn't a thing. It begins by stating that while people "may have compulsive or out of control sexual behaviors... sex addiction has been roundly denounced by every reputable body."

Sorry to go back to something a bit more 'trivial' after those awful events. I've been deliberating over whether to post this and feel free to pull me up on it if it's unhelpful.

So firstly just to be clear, as this thread alone demonstrates, women get sexually assaulted/harassed regardless of where they are, what they're wearing, what time of day it is etc. I know this personally because I've also had creepy-guy-on-the-train-during-the-day experiences (although thankfully relatively easy to extricate myself from once I'd worked out a way to escape without being spotted). I just kind of want to say as well that, purely anecdotally, could be misremembering, blah blah, that I've also had different experiences depending on what I'm wearing. Day to day I generally wear extremely non-descript, non-revealing clothing, not for any particular reason other than that's how I dress. I like to be comfortable. I found that if I walked home in the evening dressed like that I wouldn't usually get much if any attention from randoms on the street. On the rarer occasions where I have dressed up a bit, slightly more skin visible, make up etc, the street catcalling has started, or at least increased. The way I feel about this though, isn't that 'well I shouldn't dress like that then', but that well, I'm exactly the same person regardless of what I'm wearing*, so why on earth do people suddenly feel they have the right to treat me differently based on what I've decided to wear that day? How I choose to present myself has absolutely f.ck all to do with total strangers who just happen to be in my vicinity as I'm going about my day. A woman wearing a dress isn't just a woman wearing a dress, whether or not you think the dress-wearing is a legitimate reason to hassle her. So there.

Anyway feel free to treat this anecdote with a pinch of salt. And taking into account the caveats at the beginning of the post. And of course that even if I wore a tiny dress and makeup every day it still wouldn't be OK.

*philosophical questions about the nature of personality/identity aside

There was an interesting point made (by a man) on Woman's Hour* this morning. When violent crimes against men by men are reported, women don't start saying 'What about us?' whereas whenever violence against women is reported, as on this occasion most definitely, men pipe up about attacks on men because they have to make it about them.

*Yes, I do listen to WH while I'm knitting. Rock and roll.

And of course it's not just violence outside the home...

Solace Women's Aid, which runs 22 refuges in the capital, saw a 53% rise in referrals between January 2020 and January 2021, while Hestia, which has 27, saw a 38% increase in six months following the announcement of England's first lockdown last March.

Solace also said they had been unable to take 700 calls for help during September last year because of a lack of resources.

Both organisations are expecting another increase in demand for places from April as the current restrictions are gradually lifted, in line with their experience following the first two lockdowns.

The government said tackling domestic abuse "remains a top priority".

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-56440646

Tessa K wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 12:41 pm There was an interesting point made (by a man) on Woman's Hour* this morning. When violent crimes against men by men are reported, women don't start saying 'What about us?' whereas whenever violence against women is reported, as on this occasion most definitely, men pipe up about attacks on men because they have to make it about them.

*Yes, I do listen to WH while I'm knitting. Rock and roll.

And of course it's not just violence outside the home...

Solace Women's Aid, which runs 22 refuges in the capital, saw a 53% rise in referrals between January 2020 and January 2021, while Hestia, which has 27, saw a 38% increase in six months following the announcement of England's first lockdown last March.

Solace also said they had been unable to take 700 calls for help during September last year because of a lack of resources.

Both organisations are expecting another increase in demand for places from April as the current restrictions are gradually lifted, in line with their experience following the first two lockdowns.

The government said tackling domestic abuse "remains a top priority".

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-56440646

There’s an analogous process going on for racial violence.

discovolante wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 11:56 am Sorry to go back to something a bit more 'trivial' after those awful events. I've been deliberating over whether to post this and feel free to pull me up on it if it's unhelpful.

So firstly just to be clear, as this thread alone demonstrates, women get sexually assaulted/harassed regardless of where they are, what they're wearing, what time of day it is etc. I know this personally because I've also had creepy-guy-on-the-train-during-the-day experiences (although thankfully relatively easy to extricate myself from once I'd worked out a way to escape without being spotted). I just kind of want to say as well that, purely anecdotally, could be misremembering, blah blah, that I've also had different experiences depending on what I'm wearing. Day to day I generally wear extremely non-descript, non-revealing clothing, not for any particular reason other than that's how I dress. I like to be comfortable. I found that if I walked home in the evening dressed like that I wouldn't usually get much if any attention from randoms on the street. On the rarer occasions where I have dressed up a bit, slightly more skin visible, make up etc, the street catcalling has started, or at least increased. The way I feel about this though, isn't that 'well I shouldn't dress like that then', but that well, I'm exactly the same person regardless of what I'm wearing*, so why on earth do people suddenly feel they have the right to treat me differently based on what I've decided to wear that day? How I choose to present myself has absolutely f.ck all to do with total strangers who just happen to be in my vicinity as I'm going about my day. A woman wearing a dress isn't just a woman wearing a dress, whether or not you think the dress-wearing is a legitimate reason to hassle her. So there.

Anyway feel free to treat this anecdote with a pinch of salt. And taking into account the caveats at the beginning of the post. And of course that even if I wore a tiny dress and makeup every day it still wouldn't be OK.

*philosophical questions about the nature of personality/identity aside

So what follows isn't intended as definitively trying to answer that question (I'm interpreting what you wrote as rhetorically asked), but just some musing as I go along on what goes through the male mind, what makes them act as if it's okay, when they act like this. And it's not written either as a defence or anything like that - just some thoughts on what might drive that behaviour. Ignore if people have already worked this out for themselves or it's old hat or you don't think it's useful. And apologies if that's the case.

Sometimes I'm tempted to take a utilitarian view of thing like street harassment, cat-calling, and their virtual equivalents (random men DMing women, sending dick pics, etc) - what on earth are the men who do it thinking? There's literally a 0% chance of that stuff ever actually working. But I don't think that the men who do it are thinking about chance of success. As someone who has never taken part in cat-calling or street harassment or random DMing or dick pics or anything, obviously my thoughts on those things aren't especially insightful. But I guess in all these cases there's a tendency for men to see women as not fully human - not a full person with thoughts and ambitions and hopes and fears and all the rest of it.

Instead, I think men acting like this are just acting out of a mixed bag of performative superiority (both over women and over any other men who may be around - I think the whole thing around "banter" comes from a similar place), lack of respect for women (clearly), and sexuality does play a role, but not in any kind of fully constructed or thoughtful way, but again both as a bragging thing with male peers and as a really bad culture in general. I think a lot of culture around sex for men, especially young men, is centred around a kind of comparative scoring, which again sees women as falling somewhere on a scale of hotness, how good they are in bed, etc, rather than actual people with inherent value. I think it plays into why Leonardo Dicaprio is incapable of dating a woman over the age of 30, for example.

Sex culture for men is a big deal. It's certainly not much of the scope when it comes to male violence (which obviously includes rape), because male violence is about control and superiority, and the more violent or abusive male behaviour gets, the less sex plays any role in it, other than as a means to enact that control. But in the wider culture of men subjugating women through harassment and so on, the way men interact with each other can have a really strong focus on how you're doing relative to your male friends, and one way to do that is through the stupid "sow your oats" culture. And I think the stronger that culture is for a particular man's peers, the more emphasis is put on accomplishment or numbers or achievement or whatever, rather than more healthy attitudes, the more it drives the sorts of behaviours that lead to harassment and pressurising and so on. So in that context, an woman appearing more attractive to men becomes someone more worth "accomplishing", like scaling a mountain or something.

Male culture can often also feature a lot of oneupmanship, pushing things further and further and further so that all limits are ignored, which doesn't help either. It can feature a lot of insulting, a lot of belittling, a lot of shallow discussion (sport, etc), a sense of masculinity which is defined primarily as how not feminine you are, and very little meaningful friendship, very little accountability. That's not anywhere near true of all male relationships, but it does feature in a lot of them. It can take a huge amount of strength to stand up to one's friends, or challenge bad behaviour, or make clear something isn't okay. And just walking away means allowing it to continue in your absence. The peer pressure is enormous.

Obviously that's not the whole picture - it can't be, when so many men do things outside of those group contexts, but I think that culture plays into the male psyche in many cases a lot of the time even when not around other men. Sex becomes a right, (thus incels), a thing that men do to women (who are objects, devices, rather than humans), a personal need rather than a shared experience. I think it drives the fear of commitment that many men can have - a sense that some can have that settling down in your 20s is a waste of valuable youth.

And that's only just a part of the much bigger picture of male violence and how it comes to be.

Improving that male culture is obviously a mammoth task, and I don't know how it can be done. Education, presumably, more men standing up for a healthier culture and calling bad culture out, celebrating of genuinely good men and good attitudes in men, repeatedly emphasising the humanity of women and not accepting dehumanisation of women. Calling bad male behaviour by its name - linking this stuff not as something that women suffer but as something that men do.

Anyway, sorry for rambling. Much of this may be bollocks, but for me we can't tackle the issues of violence and harassment without tackling male behaviour and culture. I know that women have suffered this for millennia and will continue to, but I think that whilst it's deeply important to listen to women's experiences and change society on account of them, the place where that change happens will be primarily in men.

discovolante wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 11:56 am Sorry to go back to something a bit more 'trivial' after those awful events. I've been deliberating over whether to post this and feel free to pull me up on it if it's unhelpful.

So firstly just to be clear, as this thread alone demonstrates, women get sexually assaulted/harassed regardless of where they are, what they're wearing, what time of day it is etc. I know this personally because I've also had creepy-guy-on-the-train-during-the-day experiences (although thankfully relatively easy to extricate myself from once I'd worked out a way to escape without being spotted). I just kind of want to say as well that, purely anecdotally, could be misremembering, blah blah, that I've also had different experiences depending on what I'm wearing. Day to day I generally wear extremely non-descript, non-revealing clothing, not for any particular reason other than that's how I dress. I like to be comfortable. I found that if I walked home in the evening dressed like that I wouldn't usually get much if any attention from randoms on the street. On the rarer occasions where I have dressed up a bit, slightly more skin visible, make up etc, the street catcalling has started, or at least increased. The way I feel about this though, isn't that 'well I shouldn't dress like that then', but that well, I'm exactly the same person regardless of what I'm wearing*, so why on earth do people suddenly feel they have the right to treat me differently based on what I've decided to wear that day? How I choose to present myself has absolutely f.ck all to do with total strangers who just happen to be in my vicinity as I'm going about my day. A woman wearing a dress isn't just a woman wearing a dress, whether or not you think the dress-wearing is a legitimate reason to hassle her. So there.

Anyway feel free to treat this anecdote with a pinch of salt. And taking into account the caveats at the beginning of the post. And of course that even if I wore a tiny dress and makeup every day it still wouldn't be OK.

*philosophical questions about the nature of personality/identity aside

I don't think it's trivial. It's part of the general environment making women feel uncomfortable. Maybe it's trying to enforce a power-imbalance with women below them or whatever, but it's not unimportant.

And as for what you were wearing - Stella (who I quoted earlier) would wear perfectly normal office clothing - tending to wear (smart) jeans rather than a skirt for example but that didn't stop the letch

I think some of the discussion on James O'Brien's show yesterday is line with what I said above

That's a really interesting insight EPD. It made me think of this piece from yesterday where a group of male campaigners and experts in various aspects of gender-based violence had a discussion. I wasn't hugely impressed with it tbh, but there are some comments that fit in well with what you've said.

El Pollo Diablo wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 1:16 pm Sometimes I'm tempted to take a utilitarian view of thing like street harassment, cat-calling, and their virtual equivalents (random men DMing women, sending dick pics, etc) - what on earth are the men who do it thinking? There's literally a 0% chance of that stuff ever actually working. But I don't think that the men who do it are thinking about chance of success. As someone who has never taken part in cat-calling or street harassment or random DMing or dick pics or anything, obviously my thoughts on those things aren't especially insightful. But I guess in all these cases there's a tendency for men to see women as not fully human - not a full person with thoughts and ambitions and hopes and fears and all the rest of it...

Sex culture for men is a big deal. It's certainly not much of the scope when it comes to male violence (which obviously includes rape), because male violence is about control and superiority, and the more violent or abusive male behaviour gets, the less sex plays any role in it, other than as a means to enact that control.

I think the tendency to not see us as fully human is a common one, and it dates back to at least the ancient Greeks. Aristotle famously considered women to be a "deformity" of men, after all. The piece has this comment from Nazir Afzal, a solicitor and former chief crown prosecutor for north-west England,

I’ve prosecuted hundreds of rapes, hundreds of femicides. And in all the rapes I’ve prosecuted – from looking at the evidence – not one of the men was motivated by sex. They were motivated by being able to control the woman.

I can't help but think that the culturisation of men to think of themselves as being in control, only to find out that their lives are just as much at the whims of fate and circumstance as anyone's, can lead to - for some - a huge amount of anger. The incels are a perfect example of men who have been sold this idea that they are owed the great job and fast car and sexy girlfriend and when that doesn't happen rather than accept that they've been sold a lie they end up blaming women.

Luke Hart, whose mother and sister were shot and killed by their dad before he killed himself, said that,

Everything wrong in my father’s life was down to my mother and sister. He wrote it in his murder note.

What I find increasingly obvious, and strange, is how women are trained to be so responsible - we have to be responsible for ourselves and for anyone's actions towards ourselves - and yet men are given no need for responsibility at all - "boys will be boys", "he's just like that". They get to fall back on outdated views that it's "our biological imperative", "men are inherently aggressive', "men can't control themselves". If I was a man I'd be insulted at how little agency I'm given in matters sexual.

Thanks EPD for writing that.

El Pollo Diablo wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 1:16 pm Sex culture for men is a big deal. It's certainly not much of the scope when it comes to male violence (which obviously includes rape), because male violence is about control and superiority, and the more violent or abusive male behaviour gets, the less sex plays any role in it, other than as a means to enact that control. But in the wider culture of men subjugating women through harassment and so on, the way men interact with each other can have a really strong focus on how you're doing relative to your male friends, and one way to do that is through the stupid "sow your oats" culture. And I think the stronger that culture is for a particular man's peers, the more emphasis is put on accomplishment or numbers or achievement or whatever, rather than more healthy attitudes, the more it drives the sorts of behaviours that lead to harassment and pressurising and so on. So in that context, an woman appearing more attractive to men becomes someone more worth "accomplishing", like scaling a mountain or something.

I think the bolded bits here are also pointing at an unhealthy element of society: that men (and probably women as well, no idea if that's a stronger or weaker thing) are expected to have a friend group that is all of their own gender, even if it's not their only friend group. That "hanging out with the boys" is a thing. And that leads onto attitudes like "bros before hos", "he got a girlfriend and now he doesn't come out drinking with the boys", etc. even before you get into having an all male peer group where more obviously misogynistic attitudes take root.

I worked in a factory when I was younger (late 90’s). The shop floor guys would gather at the open roller shutter door in summer when girls walked past to enthusiastically express their admiration. From their point of view there was no thought required. The prettier the girl the faster they would come running to the open door. While I was there there wasn’t any attempt by management to moderate or ban this behaviour. I found it embarrassing but put it down to something that blue collar workers did and essentially harmless.

I also later knew socially a girl who told me how much she hated walking past that factory. I still walk past there myself, I haven’t seen anything like that in recent years but I might not anyway, they wouldn’t be catcalling me. If I witness any such behaviour in future I will be complaining to them though.

Fishnut wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 1:49 pm The piece has this comment from Nazir Afzal, a solicitor and former chief crown prosecutor for north-west England,

I’ve prosecuted hundreds of rapes, hundreds of femicides. And in all the rapes I’ve prosecuted – from looking at the evidence – not one of the men was motivated by sex. They were motivated by being able to control the woman.

That will also apply to many of the other behaviours mentioned on this thread. Everything from stalking, through groping, to domestic abuse are a means to an end, which is the man exercising power over a woman.

dyqik wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 2:08 pm Thanks EPD for writing that.

El Pollo Diablo wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 1:16 pm Sex culture for men is a big deal. It's certainly not much of the scope when it comes to male violence (which obviously includes rape), because male violence is about control and superiority, and the more violent or abusive male behaviour gets, the less sex plays any role in it, other than as a means to enact that control. But in the wider culture of men subjugating women through harassment and so on, the way men interact with each other can have a really strong focus on how you're doing relative to your male friends, and one way to do that is through the stupid "sow your oats" culture. And I think the stronger that culture is for a particular man's peers, the more emphasis is put on accomplishment or numbers or achievement or whatever, rather than more healthy attitudes, the more it drives the sorts of behaviours that lead to harassment and pressurising and so on. So in that context, an woman appearing more attractive to men becomes someone more worth "accomplishing", like scaling a mountain or something.

I think the bolded bits here are also pointing at an unhealthy element of society: that men (and probably women as well, no idea if that's a stronger or weaker thing) are expected to have a friend group that is all of their own gender, even if it's not their only friend group. That "hanging out with the boys" is a thing. And that leads onto attitudes like "bros before hos", "he got a girlfriend and now he doesn't come out drinking with the boys", etc. even before you get into having an all male peer group where more obviously misogynistic attitudes take root.

It's interesting though, because I'd say for a lot of women, an all female friendship group can be a valuable place for discussion and support, in a way that would be less comfortable in a mixed group. Obviously there are sometimes fairly obvious reasons for this around things like menstruation, childbirth, breastfeeding etc. But you find it happen with things like relationship issues too, which you would hope could benefit from the opposite sex's viewpoint. I have mixed sex friendship groups and love them for things like debate and discussion about random issues, but it is the all female groups that have more support sought and given.

mediocrity511 wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 3:05 pm

dyqik wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 2:08 pm Thanks EPD for writing that.

El Pollo Diablo wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 1:16 pm Sex culture for men is a big deal. It's certainly not much of the scope when it comes to male violence (which obviously includes rape), because male violence is about control and superiority, and the more violent or abusive male behaviour gets, the less sex plays any role in it, other than as a means to enact that control. But in the wider culture of men subjugating women through harassment and so on, the way men interact with each other can have a really strong focus on how you're doing relative to your male friends, and one way to do that is through the stupid "sow your oats" culture. And I think the stronger that culture is for a particular man's peers, the more emphasis is put on accomplishment or numbers or achievement or whatever, rather than more healthy attitudes, the more it drives the sorts of behaviours that lead to harassment and pressurising and so on. So in that context, an woman appearing more attractive to men becomes someone more worth "accomplishing", like scaling a mountain or something.

I think the bolded bits here are also pointing at an unhealthy element of society: that men (and probably women as well, no idea if that's a stronger or weaker thing) are expected to have a friend group that is all of their own gender, even if it's not their only friend group. That "hanging out with the boys" is a thing. And that leads onto attitudes like "bros before hos", "he got a girlfriend and now he doesn't come out drinking with the boys", etc. even before you get into having an all male peer group where more obviously misogynistic attitudes take root.

It's interesting though, because I'd say for a lot of women, an all female friendship group can be a valuable place for discussion and support, in a way that would be less comfortable in a mixed group. Obviously there are sometimes fairly obvious reasons for this around things like menstruation, childbirth, breastfeeding etc. But you find it happen with things like relationship issues too, which you would hope could benefit from the opposite sex's viewpoint. I have mixed sex friendship groups and love them for things like debate and discussion about random issues, but it is the all female groups that have more support sought and given.

Yeah, I don't want to denigrate the role of single gender discussion for support with or dealing with particular issues. All male discussion/interventions to try to prevent misogynistic behavior is probably an essential element of fixing things. But I am seeing the lack of socialization of men to operate in a mixed gender society, and to know and hear about the existence of menstruation issues*, childbirth issues, sexual assault, lower level misogyny etc. as a massive problem, alongside the (learned?) helplessness of men to talk about emotions, feelings, etc.

dyqik wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 2:08 pm Thanks EPD for writing that.

El Pollo Diablo wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 1:16 pm Sex culture for men is a big deal. It's certainly not much of the scope when it comes to male violence (which obviously includes rape), because male violence is about control and superiority, and the more violent or abusive male behaviour gets, the less sex plays any role in it, other than as a means to enact that control. But in the wider culture of men subjugating women through harassment and so on, the way men interact with each other can have a really strong focus on how you're doing relative to your male friends, and one way to do that is through the stupid "sow your oats" culture. And I think the stronger that culture is for a particular man's peers, the more emphasis is put on accomplishment or numbers or achievement or whatever, rather than more healthy attitudes, the more it drives the sorts of behaviours that lead to harassment and pressurising and so on. So in that context, an woman appearing more attractive to men becomes someone more worth "accomplishing", like scaling a mountain or something.

I think the bolded bits here are also pointing at an unhealthy element of society: that men (and probably women as well, no idea if that's a stronger or weaker thing) are expected to have a friend group that is all of their own gender, even if it's not their only friend group. That "hanging out with the boys" is a thing. And that leads onto attitudes like "bros before hos", "he got a girlfriend and now he doesn't come out drinking with the boys", etc. even before you get into having an all male peer group where more obviously misogynistic attitudes take root.

Is age a big component? Hanging out with a bunch of men is something I associate with life before I got married and had kids. Now that I'm middle aged pretty much all my social life is within family groups (eg visit the inlaws or one family visits another), and the same applies to my male friends and family (and thinking on it my father and grandfather).

dyqik wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 3:59 pm

mediocrity511 wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 3:05 pm

dyqik wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 2:08 pm Thanks EPD for writing that.



I think the bolded bits here are also pointing at an unhealthy element of society: that men (and probably women as well, no idea if that's a stronger or weaker thing) are expected to have a friend group that is all of their own gender, even if it's not their only friend group. That "hanging out with the boys" is a thing. And that leads onto attitudes like "bros before hos", "he got a girlfriend and now he doesn't come out drinking with the boys", etc. even before you get into having an all male peer group where more obviously misogynistic attitudes take root.

It's interesting though, because I'd say for a lot of women, an all female friendship group can be a valuable place for discussion and support, in a way that would be less comfortable in a mixed group. Obviously there are sometimes fairly obvious reasons for this around things like menstruation, childbirth, breastfeeding etc. But you find it happen with things like relationship issues too, which you would hope could benefit from the opposite sex's viewpoint. I have mixed sex friendship groups and love them for things like debate and discussion about random issues, but it is the all female groups that have more support sought and given.

Yeah, I don't want to denigrate the role of single gender discussion for support with or dealing with particular issues. All male discussion/interventions to try to prevent misogynistic behavior is probably an essential element of fixing things. But I am seeing the lack of socialization of men to operate in a mixed gender society, and to know and hear about the existence of menstruation issues*, childbirth issues, sexual assault, lower level misogyny etc. as a massive problem, alongside the (learned?) helplessness of men to talk about emotions, feelings, etc.

I guess my point was that I don't think that it's the fact of a single sexed group that leads to toxicity, more that men would benefit from having female style relationships with each other and women.

mediocrity511 wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 4:23 pm men would benefit from having female style relationships with each other

I don’t really know what that means. If I was to point to an idealised male relationship it would probably be like that portrayed in Mortimer and Whitehouse - Gone Fishing. Mostly taking the piss, long periods of silence, occasional chat about more serious issues.

Woodchopper wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 4:09 pm

dyqik wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 2:08 pm Thanks EPD for writing that.

El Pollo Diablo wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 1:16 pm Sex culture for men is a big deal. It's certainly not much of the scope when it comes to male violence (which obviously includes rape), because male violence is about control and superiority, and the more violent or abusive male behaviour gets, the less sex plays any role in it, other than as a means to enact that control. But in the wider culture of men subjugating women through harassment and so on, the way men interact with each other can have a really strong focus on how you're doing relative to your male friends, and one way to do that is through the stupid "sow your oats" culture. And I think the stronger that culture is for a particular man's peers, the more emphasis is put on accomplishment or numbers or achievement or whatever, rather than more healthy attitudes, the more it drives the sorts of behaviours that lead to harassment and pressurising and so on. So in that context, an woman appearing more attractive to men becomes someone more worth "accomplishing", like scaling a mountain or something.

I think the bolded bits here are also pointing at an unhealthy element of society: that men (and probably women as well, no idea if that's a stronger or weaker thing) are expected to have a friend group that is all of their own gender, even if it's not their only friend group. That "hanging out with the boys" is a thing. And that leads onto attitudes like "bros before hos", "he got a girlfriend and now he doesn't come out drinking with the boys", etc. even before you get into having an all male peer group where more obviously misogynistic attitudes take root.

Is age a big component? Hanging out with a bunch of men is something I associate with life before I got married and had kids. Now that I'm middle aged pretty much all my social life is within family groups (eg visit the inlaws or one family visits another), and the same applies to my male friends and family (and thinking on it my father and grandfather).

It's interesting though, because women are more likely to maintain or make new friendship groups at different life stages (eg with other mothers), but I'm unsure if men do similar?

Stephanie wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 4:29 pm

Woodchopper wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 4:09 pm

dyqik wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 2:08 pm Thanks EPD for writing that.



I think the bolded bits here are also pointing at an unhealthy element of society: that men (and probably women as well, no idea if that's a stronger or weaker thing) are expected to have a friend group that is all of their own gender, even if it's not their only friend group. That "hanging out with the boys" is a thing. And that leads onto attitudes like "bros before hos", "he got a girlfriend and now he doesn't come out drinking with the boys", etc. even before you get into having an all male peer group where more obviously misogynistic attitudes take root.

Is age a big component? Hanging out with a bunch of men is something I associate with life before I got married and had kids. Now that I'm middle aged pretty much all my social life is within family groups (eg visit the inlaws or one family visits another), and the same applies to my male friends and family (and thinking on it my father and grandfather).

It's interesting though, because women are more likely to maintain or make new friendship groups at different life stages (eg with other mothers), but I'm unsure if men do similar?

We do. With other fathers & mothers & colleagues, people in sports clubs or at other social events. You know, like normal humans.
I suspect that the sort of horrible creepy guys who make women feel, & be, unsafe don't do that so much, though, because us non-creepy guys don't like them either & we definitely don't want them hanging around our wives or children.

I meant specifically in relation to what Chops was saying in terms of him tending not to hang around in all male groups now he's older with a family, . Not suggesting that men can't be friends with colleagues and other parents. But just I've tended to notice more mothers' groups than fathers' groups.