Scrutable

This person lives in Spain. He seems to think that Spanish postal officials should be guided by UK law in their application of import duties.

I've made a wonderful new spangled thread for discussing brexit benefits! viewtopic.php?f=10&t=2802

sTeamTraen wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 3:22 pm This person lives in Spain. He seems to think that Spanish postal officials should be guided by UK law in their application of import duties.

I think that's a great idea.

sheldrake wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 1:52 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 1:43 pm
Why do you think the UK haulage industry is able to engage in this kind of negotiating tactic and other countries' industries can't? I note that the UK government itself seems to think lack of EU hiring is a problem, which is why they've made extra visas.

Your posts seem to jump between saying nothing is happening, and saying that it is but it's a good thing. I think it would help if you organise your ideas a bit more coherently.

I thought I'd been pretty clear that I don't think EU hiring (specifically) is important. UK immigration has increased over the last 5 years, but we also still have very low unemployment. The haulage sector just hasn't invested in worker pay and conditions in the way it needs to, and has provoked panic buying to try and shake up immigration rules w.r.t what kind of pay is needed to bring somebody in from the outside. Lots of elements of our media have been waiting with baited breath to say 'see, I told you so!' about brexit, because so many of them went out on a limb with nonsense predictions over the last 5 years. They've actively made the panic buying worse by acting as an echo chamber for this 'look isn't brexit terrible?' meme, just to salve their own egos.

France and Germany have higher pay for their truckers (good for them) so their trucker shortage isn't as bad, but their media class also isn't waiting with baited breath to jump on a problem and make it worse to try and make themselves look less wrong.

So why do you think the UK haulage industry is in this unique position of causing widespread food and fuel shortages? I understand you don't think it's to do with EU hiring, but then what?

Why aren't other countries' haulage industries pulling the same stunt, if as you point out they're faced with worse shortages of cheap drivers?

I'm obviously being super dense here, but I need you to spell it out.

Bird on a Fire wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 3:44 pm

So why do you think the UK haulage industry is in this unique position of causing widespread food and fuel shortages? I understand you don't think it's to do with EU hiring, but then what?

Why aren't other countries' haulage industries pulling the same stunt, if as you point out they're faced with worse shortages of cheap drivers?

I'm obviously being super dense here, but I need you to spell it out.

Because I don't think large numbers of their journalists would be so eager to help them, and I don't think the German or French hauliers are as stingy about wages as ours sadly are (German and French trucker pay and conditions are definitely better than ours). Some of our problems seem like a legacy of the class system where certain types of jobs are just subconscously flagged as 'low status' and therefore not deserving of high pay, regardless of how hard they are to do, in a way that I don't think French and German people do. Poland is the only EU country that actually has a worse shortage than us, currently, however.

So the haulage industry is leveraging the existence of remain-leaning media who are keen to engage in sh.t-stirring and exaggeration?

Bird on a Fire wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 4:05 pm So the haulage industry is leveraging the existence of remain-leaning media who are keen to engage in sh.t-stirring and exaggeration?

I believe that's a significant part of it, yes.

Even if a German haulage association or company wanted to do this (which their higher wages suggest they wouldn't), they wouldn't have these kind of media allies.

by not delivering diesel and food. clever. almost too clever.

Thanks. I think I understand your position now.

I think it's certainly the case that conditions and pay are a big part of the issue, as UK-based former drivers have dropped out too, in equal or greater numbers. And I think it's pretty clear that they'd rather keep importing cheaper labour than improve conditions.

I hope that drivers' conditions and societal appreciation improves. But, training new drivers from UK stock will take time and divert resources from other areas. I'm not convinced that many office-bound graduate Excel-jockeys will take the plunge.

So I'd expect a period of disruption before it's fully sorted. And personally I'd probably argue that brexit has made it more difficult to secure foreign drivers at short notice to alleviate the current crisis - even if we both agree that that wouldn't be an optimal long-term solution.

There may be more disruption if UK drivers unions' realise they hold a lot of the cards.

I'm not sure what % of my shopping basket is HGV drivers' wages, but I expect it's fairly trivial. I buy fair trade coffee and bananas and stuff, but really would prefer if decent conditions for everyone were built into the economy.

plodder wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 4:09 pm by not delivering diesel and food. clever. almost too clever.

You've gotta admit it would be a blinder of a strike if drivers' unions had organised to cause it.

If the UK's "key workers" like drivers and retail staff haven't realised they're the key to the whole pyramid scheme and start striking for better conditions now it's harder to swap them for a foreigner, they don't deserve any pity.

When you think about the retail value of a single HGV or tanker load, and how many loads they deliver in year, I don't think the driver's wages are a big component, and it genuinely looks like a hard job to me.

plodder wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 4:09 pm by not delivering diesel and food. clever. almost too clever.

They are delivering it, but the media component is triggering panic buying of fuel. It's more to do with the way consumers are behaving, than the drivers.

thanks for your helpful definition of the word "panic". I look forward to the analysis that shows things like extra visas etc were also fake.

Hadn't realised they'd suspended competition law to enable logistics operations to be shared (resulting in some confusion too)

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... s-continue

plodder wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 4:36 pm I look forward to the analysis that shows things like extra visas etc were also fake.

I assume you don't believe that petrol deliveries just ceased a couple of weeks ago.

What's the point you're trying to make? Is it that you don't think your difficulty buying petrol was caused by hoarding? That you don't think the hoarding was triggered by leaks to the media?

I think a shortage of EU lorry drivers is a significant factor in the logistical issues we are seeing. I don’t think any of your huffing and puffing about other things addresses this simple point that even Boris Johnson and his government accept.

plodder wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 5:46 pm I think a shortage of EU lorry drivers is a significant factor in the logistical issues we are seeing.

Why do you believe that, given the figures already posted about the actual proportions of EU-origin drivers in the workforce since 2016? Why are you focussed, specifically, on new drivers having to come from the EU?

I don’t think any of your huffing and puffing about other things addresses this simple point that even Boris Johnson and his government accept.

Johnson and the UK government do not agree with your point. Stop shouting at people and start making reasoned arguments with data, you silly old man.

In the world of battle rap, this is called a "mirror match".

Bird on a Fire wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 6:13 pm In the world of battle rap, this is called a "mirror match".

I've always thought plodder would lighten up if he came to one of these with me https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOavv1lbwbg

I can easily imagine plodder twanging his banjo string along with that.

How many have you been to?

Don't want to dox myself, but once you've been to a few it stays with you

just subbed to your channel

Bird on a Fire wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 6:29 pm just subbed to your channel

that’s what he wanted, you fool

Bird on a Fire wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 4:19 pm
If the UK's "key workers" like drivers and retail staff haven't realised they're the key to the whole pyramid scheme and start striking for better conditions now it's harder to swap them for a foreigner, they don't deserve any pity.

While that would work for HGV drivers, retail workers do not have this leverage.

plodder wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 8:36 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 6:29 pm just subbed to your channel

that’s what he wanted, you fool

won't look so foolish when we've sung our way to world peace