Scrutable

Herainestold wrote: Thu Jun 04, 2020 7:55 pm White people (all of us?) should refrain from posting in this topic.

Herainestold wrote: Thu Jun 04, 2020 7:55 pm White people (all of us?) should refrain from posting in this topic.

dyqik wrote: Thu Jun 04, 2020 8:15 pm

Herainestold wrote: Thu Jun 04, 2020 7:55 pm White people (all of us?) should refrain from posting in this topic.

In which case white people will vote for more racism, and more racism will happen.

dyqik wrote: Thu Jun 04, 2020 8:15 pm

Herainestold wrote: Thu Jun 04, 2020 7:55 pm White people (all of us?) should refrain from posting in this topic.

In which case white people will vote for more racism, and more racism will happen.

Bird on a Fire wrote: Thu Jun 04, 2020 8:37 pm
I think we also have to remember that whoever wins the election in the US, there's still a long way to go. More pressure and protesting will be necessary to reform policing and the judicial system even with Biden in the White House (making the relatively safe assumption that he gets the Democratic nomination).

The mass incarceration of black and brown US citizens is partly a result of policies written by Biden, and he also has a history of advocating for tougher criminalisation of drug users, the burden of which has disproportionately fallen on minority groups. A Biden victory would make it easier to pass the sweeping reforms that are necessary, and the policies on his campaign page signal the right intentions. On the other hand, he doesn't generally strike me as a sweeping reform kind of guy, and continues to defend legislation that was explicitly intended to increase incarceration.

Obviously he would be a whole lot more amenable to persuasion than Trump (a ludicrously low bar to clear). But it would be disastrous for social progress in the US if people go and vote, Biden wins, and then they relax. Counteracting these kinds of entrenched systemic injustices that have been at least tolerated, if not actively promoted, by politicians from both parties is going to require strong, sustained pressure for a long time.

Getting white people to vote against racism would be great, and is certainly one essential component of the struggle ahead. I also hope a lot of them are persuaded to support protestors, for example by donating to one of the many funds providing bail and legal advice to arrested protestors.

Herainestold wrote: Thu Jun 04, 2020 8:57 pm The best result would be a collapse of the Amerika system, totally, and starting over from scratch. A low probability event, but at least possible at this point.

EACLucifer wrote: Thu Jun 04, 2020 9:30 pm

Herainestold wrote: Thu Jun 04, 2020 8:57 pm The best result would be a collapse of the Amerika system, totally, and starting over from scratch. A low probability event, but at least possible at this point.

The system you want to replace it with is racist to the point hundreds of thousands have been sent to camps because of their race, and also features extreme police brutality and executes more people than any other nation, indeed, it probably executes more people than every other nation put together.

Please go away.

Bird on a Fire wrote: Thu Jun 04, 2020 8:37 pm

dyqik wrote: Thu Jun 04, 2020 8:15 pm

Herainestold wrote: Thu Jun 04, 2020 7:55 pm White people (all of us?) should refrain from posting in this topic.

In which case white people will vote for more racism, and more racism will happen.

I think we also have to remember that whoever wins the election in the US, there's still a long way to go. More pressure and protesting will be necessary to reform policing and the judicial system even with Biden in the White House (making the relatively safe assumption that he gets the Democratic nomination).

The mass incarceration of black and brown US citizens is partly a result of policies written by Biden, and he also has a history of advocating for tougher criminalisation of drug users, the burden of which has disproportionately fallen on minority groups. A Biden victory would make it easier to pass the sweeping reforms that are necessary, and the policies on his campaign page signal the right intentions. On the other hand, he doesn't generally strike me as a sweeping reform kind of guy, and continues to defend legislation that was explicitly intended to increase incarceration.

Obviously he would be a whole lot more amenable to persuasion than Trump (a ludicrously low bar to clear). But it would be disastrous for social progress in the US if people go and vote, Biden wins, and then they relax. Counteracting these kinds of entrenched systemic injustices that have been at least tolerated, if not actively promoted, by politicians from both parties is going to require strong, sustained pressure for a long time.

Getting white people to vote against racism would be great, and is certainly one essential component of the struggle ahead. I also hope a lot of them are persuaded to support protestors, for example by donating to one of the many funds providing bail and legal advice to arrested protestors.

JQH wrote: Thu Jun 04, 2020 10:38 pmAs some geezer called Barack Obama pointed out, a lot of decisions about policing are made below Federal (and even State) level so people need to get involved in local politics not just vote every four years.

EACLucifer wrote: Thu Jun 04, 2020 10:45 pm

JQH wrote: Thu Jun 04, 2020 10:38 pmAs some geezer called Barack Obama pointed out, a lot of decisions about policing are made below Federal (and even State) level so people need to get involved in local politics not just vote every four years.

While this is absolutely true, there are things that can be done at the federal level. I posted a letter by Bernie Sanders calling for a number of them, but the crux is that if police are to receive federal funding, then federal government can exert some degree of control over them.

Herainestold wrote: Thu Jun 04, 2020 10:53 pm
The problem is that it is irredeemably corrupt.Federal officials get kick backs for funneling money to local police orgs for acquiring military equipment.
The only way to justify it is to use it against local people.

On June 1 in Louisville, local restaurateur David McAtee was killed when the Louisville Metro Police and the Kentucky National Guard opened fire on a crowd of protesters. These authorities alleged that they returned fire after shots were fired at them. According to the victim's sister, the gathering was not a protest but rather a regularly scheduled social gathering at which McAtee served food from his barbecue restaurant.[63] An investigation of the killing is ongoing.[64][65] LMPD Chief Steve Conrad was fired later that day, as officers and troops involved in the shooting did not wear or failed to activate body cameras.

On June 1 in Las Vegas, police shot and killed Jorge Gomez. Gomez was walking among protesters as a demonstration was coming to an end and reportedly reached for his firearm when he was shot.

On June 2 in Vallejo, California, Sean Monterrosa, a 22-year-old man was shot and killed by police while on his knees with his hands up. When Moterrosa lifted his hands, a 15-inch hammer tucked in his pocket was revealed, which was mistaken for a handgun. One police officer fired on Moterrosa five times. The name of the officer has yet to be released.[77] Monterrosa was suspected to be a looter[78] who had just stolen from a pharmacy.

On May 27 in Minneapolis, Calvin Horton Jr. died after being fatally shot during a protest. A local shopowner was arrested, and police sources claimed that Horton was involved in looting of his store

On May 30 in St. Louis, 29-year-old protester Barry Perkins died after being run over by a FedEx truck that was fleeing from looters.

On May 30 in Omaha, 22-year-old protester James Scurlock was fatally shot outside of a bar.[58] The shooter was the owner of the bar, who had a scuffle with a group of protesters and ended up firing several shots, one of which struck Scurlock in the clavicle, killing him.[58] Two days later, it was announced by authorities that there will be no charges for the bar's owner and that he had opened fire in self-defense.

On June 2 in Philadelphia, a looter was fatally shot by the owner of the gun shop, Firing Line Inc., while trying to break into the store in the south section of the city

Bird on a Fire wrote: Fri Jun 05, 2020 12:45 am Since George Floyd was murdered, the US police have responsible for at least three further deaths related to the protests:

On June 1 in Louisville, local restaurateur David McAtee was killed when the Louisville Metro Police and the Kentucky National Guard opened fire on a crowd of protesters. These authorities alleged that they returned fire after shots were fired at them. According to the victim's sister, the gathering was not a protest but rather a regularly scheduled social gathering at which McAtee served food from his barbecue restaurant.[63] An investigation of the killing is ongoing.[64][65] LMPD Chief Steve Conrad was fired later that day, as officers and troops involved in the shooting did not wear or failed to activate body cameras.

On June 1 in Las Vegas, police shot and killed Jorge Gomez. Gomez was walking among protesters as a demonstration was coming to an end and reportedly reached for his firearm when he was shot.

On June 2 in Vallejo, California, Sean Monterrosa, a 22-year-old man was shot and killed by police while on his knees with his hands up. When Moterrosa lifted his hands, a 15-inch hammer tucked in his pocket was revealed, which was mistaken for a handgun. One police officer fired on Moterrosa five times. The name of the officer has yet to be released.[77] Monterrosa was suspected to be a looter[78] who had just stolen from a pharmacy.

Along with others killed during the protests by people protecting their property:

On May 27 in Minneapolis, Calvin Horton Jr. died after being fatally shot during a protest. A local shopowner was arrested, and police sources claimed that Horton was involved in looting of his store

On May 30 in St. Louis, 29-year-old protester Barry Perkins died after being run over by a FedEx truck that was fleeing from looters.

On May 30 in Omaha, 22-year-old protester James Scurlock was fatally shot outside of a bar.[58] The shooter was the owner of the bar, who had a scuffle with a group of protesters and ended up firing several shots, one of which struck Scurlock in the clavicle, killing him.[58] Two days later, it was announced by authorities that there will be no charges for the bar's owner and that he had opened fire in self-defense.

On June 2 in Philadelphia, a looter was fatally shot by the owner of the gun shop, Firing Line Inc., while trying to break into the store in the south section of the city

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Fl ... sts#Deaths

“We are going to dismantle the Minneapolis Police Department and replace it with a transformative new model of public safety,” Bender tweeted.

“And when we’re done, we’re not simply gonna glue [the department] back together,” tweeted Jeremiah Ellison. “We are going to dramatically rethink how we approach public safety and emergency response.”

Bird on a Fire wrote: Fri Jun 05, 2020 12:25 pm Radical stuff coming out of Minneapolis.

Minneapolis City Council members pledge to ‘dismantle’ police department

“We are going to dismantle the Minneapolis Police Department and replace it with a transformative new model of public safety,” Bender tweeted.

“And when we’re done, we’re not simply gonna glue [the department] back together,” tweeted Jeremiah Ellison. “We are going to dramatically rethink how we approach public safety and emergency response.”

Woodchopper wrote: Fri Jun 05, 2020 12:39 pm One way that people outside the US can support protesters is by donating.

I just made a donation to the ACLU, there are lots of other options here: https://nymag.com/strategist/article/wh ... atter.html

tom p wrote: Fri Jun 05, 2020 2:06 pm

Woodchopper wrote: Fri Jun 05, 2020 12:39 pm One way that people outside the US can support protesters is by donating.

I just made a donation to the ACLU, there are lots of other options here: https://nymag.com/strategist/article/wh ... atter.html

There are also loads of bail funds too to help arrested protestors

EACLucifer wrote: Mon Jun 01, 2020 8:07 am Justin Amash is trying to introduce an act to end qualified immunity. While qualified immunity is not the whole problem, it is a major part of it, as it shields criminal officers from consequences. If this can be combined with efforts to abolish civil asset forfeiture, clamp down on the use of fines to fund departments* and efforts to break up police unions**, it might actually achieve something.



*Combined, these give police a financial incentive to interfere with citizens and drag them needlessly into the justice system just to steal their stuff. I've seen a lot of discussion in the last few days about the police attitude to fines causing many of the problems in Ferguson.

**I'm normally a supporter of collective bargaining, and it is a powerful tool that strengthens the hand of workers. Unfortunately American police unions use that power to shield officers from disciplinary action, promote a dangerous "thin blue line" mentality, and are politicised in disturbing ways. For example, the head of Chauvin's police union spoke at a Trump rally, and the union has sold "Cops for Trump" t-shirts.

Bird on a Fire wrote: Fri Jun 05, 2020 2:12 pm

tom p wrote: Fri Jun 05, 2020 2:06 pm

Woodchopper wrote: Fri Jun 05, 2020 12:39 pm One way that people outside the US can support protesters is by donating.

I just made a donation to the ACLU, there are lots of other options here: https://nymag.com/strategist/article/wh ... atter.html

There are also loads of bail funds too to help arrested protestors

Yes - I posted a link to an aggregated list here.