Scrutable

Gfamily wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2019 12:38 am

GeenDienst wrote: Thu Dec 12, 2019 11:40 pm I think it's OK to be a tad ticked off with those who led us here.

Right, so we were led here by the Left.

To paraphrase Feynman "I think that's kind of nutty"

Bird on a Fire wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2019 1:12 am Corbyn has at least shifted politics to the left in some ways. Johnson has dropped austerity and made promises to almost reverse some of the cuts.

GeenDienst wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2019 12:44 am

Except I didn't say that. We were led here by those who insisted that the Labour Party was led by someone that everybody knew was essentially loathed by the broader electorate. We knew that from 2017, when Labour candidates were assuring voters that it's OK to vote Labour because Corbyn couldn't possibly be PM. Every piece of polling since has supported the essential unelectability of Corbyn (note the "worst ratings ever for an opposition leader" part). And here we are.

Herainestold wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2019 5:20 am

GeenDienst wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2019 12:44 am

Except I didn't say that. We were led here by those who insisted that the Labour Party was led by someone that everybody knew was essentially loathed by the broader electorate. We knew that from 2017, when Labour candidates were assuring voters that it's OK to vote Labour because Corbyn couldn't possibly be PM. Every piece of polling since has supported the essential unelectability of Corbyn (note the "worst ratings ever for an opposition leader" part). And here we are.

After the last election Corbyn was seen as the new Messiah, a good campaigner and a decent man in away in which almost no politicians are regarded.
What happened between then and now, I ask you that.

Bird on a Fire wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2019 1:12 am Corbyn has at least shifted politics to the left in some ways. Johnson has dropped austerity and made promises to almost reverse some of the cuts.

Bird on a Fire wrote: Tue Dec 10, 2019 10:00 pmI would just really appreciate it if, from time to time, debates of Corbyn's failings could address why that's important in the grand scheme of things.

JQH wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2019 7:16 am

Bird on a Fire wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2019 1:12 am Corbyn has at least shifted politics to the left in some ways. Johnson has dropped austerity and made promises to almost reverse some of the cuts.

Promises which he will now forget.

lpm wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2019 12:03 pm Exactly, he's not left or right, he's populist. He has zero political beliefs, zero ambitions for the country.

GeenDienst wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2019 12:17 pm

lpm wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2019 12:03 pm Exactly, he's not left or right, he's populist. He has zero political beliefs, zero ambitions for the country.

He's beholden to the aged, racist, fascist, cuntasticacious Tory membership for his position. So that's the position he'll take.

lpm wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2019 12:31 pm His first action this morning will be to sexually harass a secretary. His second will be to sit down and write out his campaign for 2024.

Seriously. He is only now focused on winning again, so he'll figure out the 2024 position and work backwards to determine what to do now.

For example, he's probably going to run in 2024 as the hero of the NHS and the man who cut your taxes.

He owes nobody (except the Farage peerage) and is untouchable. He doesn't need the membership, the MPs or the cabinet.

lpm wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2019 12:31 pm His first action this morning will be to sexually harass a secretary. His second will be to sit down and write out his campaign for 2024.

Seriously. He is only now focused on winning again, so he'll figure out the 2024 position and work backwards to determine what to do now.

For example, he's probably going to run in 2024 as the hero of the NHS and the man who cut your taxes.

He owes nobody (except the Farage peerage) and is untouchable. He doesn't need the membership, the MPs or the cabinet.

This problem did not wait until the election to reveal itself. The polling data was clear and voluminous on this point long before the election. Corbyn is the most unpopular opposition leader since records began. And though we may not like it, we know that voters’ assessment of the party leaders plays a huge part in their decision.

Labour knew it and Corbyn knew it. Those appalling numbers were not state secrets. His admirers always describe him as a selfless, almost saintly man, devoid of ego. So why didn’t he take one look at his own ratings and say, “I am clearly a drag on this party’s prospects. Those who need a Labour government have a better chance of getting one if I step aside.” Not a chance.

Corbyn’s own vanity was too great for him even to consider such an act of self-sacrifice. Instead he was encouraged by his own devoted legions of supporters, for whom the idea of a change of leader was heresy. In their mind, it was better to lose under Corbyn than to have a shot at winning with someone – anyone – else.

Perhaps it was too much to ask that he make way for a candidate less sure to repel the electorate. But he made this a presidential campaign, his face everywhere, other Labour heavyweights banished from the airwaves. In their place were factionally approved nodding dogs such as Richard Burgon. Never mind that they were bound to be useless, what mattered was that they were loyal to the ruling clique.

GeenDienst wrote: Sat Dec 14, 2019 12:14 amFreedland "So why didn’t he take one look at his own ratings and say, “I am clearly a drag on this party’s prospects. Those who need a Labour government have a better chance of getting one if I step aside.”"

EACLucifer wrote: Sat Dec 14, 2019 8:21 am

GeenDienst wrote: Sat Dec 14, 2019 12:14 amFreedland "So why didn’t he take one look at his own ratings and say, “I am clearly a drag on this party’s prospects. Those who need a Labour government have a better chance of getting one if I step aside.”"

Because it isn't going to be people like him, Diane Abbot, John McDonnel, Owen Jones or that terrorist praising Stalinist Seumas Milne who are going to suffer from a Tory government. They might like to use the working classes as a talking point, but if they gave a sh.t about them, they'd have actually tried to appeal to the electorate, and put more effort into fighting the Tories than into driving out those within the party who might undermine their death grip on control.