Scrutable

Herainestold wrote: Sun Apr 10, 2022 6:53 pm Sorry I shouldn't have phrased it that way.

Getting back to Jezza's editorial, how does the West convince Russia to bargain in good faith?
There isn't going to be an unconditional surrender like WW2, there will be no march on Moscow.

It seems they are more intent on total war now, than they were a couple of weeks ago.

What kind of pressure can be put on Moscow? Sanctions obviously are not working.
They sound more hyped up and bloodthirsty every day.

Herainestold wrote: Sun Apr 10, 2022 6:53 pm Sorry I shouldn't have phrased it that way.

Getting back to Jezza's editorial, how does the West convince Russia to bargain in good faith?
There isn't going to be an unconditional surrender like WW2, there will be no march on Moscow.

It seems they are more intent on total war now, than they were a couple of weeks ago.

What kind of pressure can be put on Moscow? Sanctions obviously are not working.
They sound more hyped up and bloodthirsty every day.

jimbob wrote: Sun Apr 10, 2022 7:10 pm

Herainestold wrote: Sun Apr 10, 2022 6:53 pm Sorry I shouldn't have phrased it that way.

Getting back to Jezza's editorial, how does the West convince Russia to bargain in good faith?
There isn't going to be an unconditional surrender like WW2, there will be no march on Moscow.

It seems they are more intent on total war now, than they were a couple of weeks ago.

What kind of pressure can be put on Moscow? Sanctions obviously are not working.
They sound more hyped up and bloodthirsty every day.

More effective sanctions and stopping fossil fuel imports.

More weapons and logistic support.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-61040424

Herainestold wrote: Sun Apr 10, 2022 6:53 pm Sorry I shouldn't have phrased it that way.

Getting back to Jezza's editorial, how does the West convince Russia to bargain in good faith?
There isn't going to be an unconditional surrender like WW2, there will be no march on Moscow.

It seems they are more intent on total war now, than they were a couple of weeks ago.

What kind of pressure can be put on Moscow? Sanctions obviously are not working.
They sound more hyped up and bloodthirsty every day.

Russia has turned to Gen. Alexander Dvornikov, 60, one of Russia’s most experienced military officers and — according to U.S. officials — a general with a record of brutality against civilians in Syria and other war theaters.

Russians traveling from the mainland to the enclave of Kaliningrad have to stop in Lithuania.
There, they are greeted by an exhibition showing the realities of the war in Ukraine.
"It's the least that we can do," a spokesperson for Lithuanian Railways said.

Grumble wrote: Sun Apr 10, 2022 9:27 pm

Herainestold wrote: Sun Apr 10, 2022 6:53 pm Sorry I shouldn't have phrased it that way.

Getting back to Jezza's editorial, how does the West convince Russia to bargain in good faith?
There isn't going to be an unconditional surrender like WW2, there will be no march on Moscow.

It seems they are more intent on total war now, than they were a couple of weeks ago.

What kind of pressure can be put on Moscow? Sanctions obviously are not working.
They sound more hyped up and bloodthirsty every day.

Sinking all their ships in the Black Sea. Destroying their army. Destroying their Air Force. At least the bits that are in Ukraine. Don’t touch anything not in Ukraine or not threatening Ukraine. Also, refuse to negotiate with Putin. Humiliate the f.cker.

JQH wrote: Sun Apr 10, 2022 9:31 pm New Russian appointment. This is going to be bad.

Russia has turned to Gen. Alexander Dvornikov, 60, one of Russia’s most experienced military officers and — according to U.S. officials — a general with a record of brutality against civilians in Syria and other war theaters.

https://www.aol.co.uk/news/us-official- ... 35467.html

Grumble wrote: Sun Apr 10, 2022 9:27 pm

Herainestold wrote: Sun Apr 10, 2022 6:53 pm Sorry I shouldn't have phrased it that way.

Getting back to Jezza's editorial, how does the West convince Russia to bargain in good faith?
There isn't going to be an unconditional surrender like WW2, there will be no march on Moscow.

It seems they are more intent on total war now, than they were a couple of weeks ago.

What kind of pressure can be put on Moscow? Sanctions obviously are not working.
They sound more hyped up and bloodthirsty every day.

Sinking all their ships in the Black Sea. Destroying their army. Destroying their Air Force. At least the bits that are in Ukraine. Don’t touch anything not in Ukraine or not threatening Ukraine. Also, refuse to negotiate with Putin. Humiliate the f.cker.

Denazification is necessary when a considerable number of population (very likely most of it) has been subjected to the Nazi regime and engaged into its agenda. That is, when the “good people — bad government” hypothesis does not apply. Recognizing this fact forms the backbone of the denazification policy and all its measures, while the fact itself constitutes its subject.

They supported the Nazi authorities and pandered to them. A just punishment for this part of the population can only be possible through bearing the inevitable hardships of a just war against the Nazi system, waged as carefully and sparingly as possible relates civilians.

Denazification can only be conducted by the winner, which means (1) their unconditional control over the denazification process and (2) the authority that can ensure such control. For this purpose, a country that is being denazified cannot possess sovereignty. The denazifier state, Russia, cannot take a liberal approach towards denazification. The denazifier ideology cannot be challenged by the guilty party that is being denazified.

Russia did everything possible to save the West in the 20th century. It implemented the main Western project that constituted an alternative to capitalism, which defeated the nation-states — the Socialist red project. It crushed German Nazism, a monstrous offspring of the crisis of Western civilization. The last act of Russian altruism was its outstretched hand of friendship, for which it received a monstrous blow in the 1990s.

Everything that Russia has done for the West, it has done at its own expense, by making the greatest sacrifices. The West ultimately rejected all these sacrifices, devalued Russia’s contribution to resolving the Western crisis, and decided to take revenge on Russia for the help that it had selflessly provided. From now on, Russia will follow its own way, not worrying about the fate of the West, relying on another part of its heritage — the leadership in the global process of decolonization.

As part of this process, Russia has a high potential for partnerships and alliances with countries that the West has oppressed for centuries and which are not going to put on its yoke again. Without Russian sacrifice and struggle, these countries would not have been liberated. The denazification of Ukraine is at the same time its decolonization, which the population of Ukraine will have to understand as it begins to free itself from the intoxication, temptation, and dependence of the so-called European choice.

bjn wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 6:55 am This is an English translation of the article What should Russia do with Ukraine?, that was published by the Russian state-owned news agency RIA Novosti (Russian: РИА Новости).

It's f.cking insane and totally scary. In essence they define as Nazis anyone who is Ukranian that doesn't think of themselves are Russian. Chillingly...

Denazification is necessary when a considerable number of population (very likely most of it) has been subjected to the Nazi regime and engaged into its agenda. That is, when the “good people — bad government” hypothesis does not apply. Recognizing this fact forms the backbone of the denazification policy and all its measures, while the fact itself constitutes its subject.

And...

They supported the Nazi authorities and pandered to them. A just punishment for this part of the population can only be possible through bearing the inevitable hardships of a just war against the Nazi system, waged as carefully and sparingly as possible relates civilians.

And...

Denazification can only be conducted by the winner, which means (1) their unconditional control over the denazification process and (2) the authority that can ensure such control. For this purpose, a country that is being denazified cannot possess sovereignty. The denazifier state, Russia, cannot take a liberal approach towards denazification. The denazifier ideology cannot be challenged by the guilty party that is being denazified.

With a big dose of 'no one appreciates how we've defended western civilisation all these years!',

Russia did everything possible to save the West in the 20th century. It implemented the main Western project that constituted an alternative to capitalism, which defeated the nation-states — the Socialist red project. It crushed German Nazism, a monstrous offspring of the crisis of Western civilization. The last act of Russian altruism was its outstretched hand of friendship, for which it received a monstrous blow in the 1990s.

Everything that Russia has done for the West, it has done at its own expense, by making the greatest sacrifices. The West ultimately rejected all these sacrifices, devalued Russia’s contribution to resolving the Western crisis, and decided to take revenge on Russia for the help that it had selflessly provided. From now on, Russia will follow its own way, not worrying about the fate of the West, relying on another part of its heritage — the leadership in the global process of decolonization.

As part of this process, Russia has a high potential for partnerships and alliances with countries that the West has oppressed for centuries and which are not going to put on its yoke again. Without Russian sacrifice and struggle, these countries would not have been liberated. The denazification of Ukraine is at the same time its decolonization, which the population of Ukraine will have to understand as it begins to free itself from the intoxication, temptation, and dependence of the so-called European choice.

bjn wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 6:55 am This is an English translation of the article What should Russia do with Ukraine?, that was published by the Russian state-owned news agency RIA Novosti (Russian: РИА Новости).

It's f.cking insane and totally scary. In essence they define as Nazis anyone who is Ukranian that doesn't think of themselves are Russian. Chillingly...

bjn wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 6:55 am This is an English translation of the article What should Russia do with Ukraine?, that was published by the Russian state-owned news agency RIA Novosti (Russian: РИА Новости).

It's f.cking insane and totally scary. In essence they define as Nazis anyone who is Ukranian that doesn't think of themselves are Russian. Chillingly...

Denazification is necessary when a considerable number of population (very likely most of it) has been subjected to the Nazi regime and engaged into its agenda. That is, when the “good people — bad government” hypothesis does not apply. Recognizing this fact forms the backbone of the denazification policy and all its measures, while the fact itself constitutes its subject.

And...

They supported the Nazi authorities and pandered to them. A just punishment for this part of the population can only be possible through bearing the inevitable hardships of a just war against the Nazi system, waged as carefully and sparingly as possible relates civilians.

And...

Denazification can only be conducted by the winner, which means (1) their unconditional control over the denazification process and (2) the authority that can ensure such control. For this purpose, a country that is being denazified cannot possess sovereignty. The denazifier state, Russia, cannot take a liberal approach towards denazification. The denazifier ideology cannot be challenged by the guilty party that is being denazified.

With a big dose of 'no one appreciates how we've defended western civilisation all these years!',

Russia did everything possible to save the West in the 20th century. It implemented the main Western project that constituted an alternative to capitalism, which defeated the nation-states — the Socialist red project. It crushed German Nazism, a monstrous offspring of the crisis of Western civilization. The last act of Russian altruism was its outstretched hand of friendship, for which it received a monstrous blow in the 1990s.

Everything that Russia has done for the West, it has done at its own expense, by making the greatest sacrifices. The West ultimately rejected all these sacrifices, devalued Russia’s contribution to resolving the Western crisis, and decided to take revenge on Russia for the help that it had selflessly provided. From now on, Russia will follow its own way, not worrying about the fate of the West, relying on another part of its heritage — the leadership in the global process of decolonization.

As part of this process, Russia has a high potential for partnerships and alliances with countries that the West has oppressed for centuries and which are not going to put on its yoke again. Without Russian sacrifice and struggle, these countries would not have been liberated. The denazification of Ukraine is at the same time its decolonization, which the population of Ukraine will have to understand as it begins to free itself from the intoxication, temptation, and dependence of the so-called European choice.

HansMustermann wrote:You know, as someone who paid attention to history, I find it ironic to blame the Ukrainians as nazis. The Russian rhetoric here seems a mix of the actual Nazis' infamous Generalplan Ost and Commissar Order. Except even those tended to be more hush-hush, the former being circulated only among the SS leadership AFAIK and the latter also including the military leadership.

That such an atrocity would be the public message is unprecedented even by actual Nazi standards.

I mean, seriously, see the interviews for example with one of Goebbels' secretaries. Maintained to her final breath that she actually believed that the Jews -- including a jewish coworker of hers who one day disappeared -- were just being colonized in the Sudetenland and such. I'll grant that that might involve a good dose of wilful ignorance on her part, but still, the point remains that even then under the actual Nazis it was at least POSSIBLE to maintain such a wilful ignorance. They didn't go to great lengths to shove it into your face that, yeah, no, we should kill everyone and deport the rest to Siberia.

Herainestold wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 4:59 am That is a recipe for nuclear war.

TopBadger wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 11:47 am

Herainestold wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 4:59 am That is a recipe for nuclear war.

According to you everything seems to be a recipe for nuclear war.

TopBadger wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 11:47 am

Herainestold wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 4:59 am That is a recipe for nuclear war.

According to you everything seems to be a recipe for nuclear war.

Stranger Mouse wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 11:55 am

TopBadger wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 11:47 am

Herainestold wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 4:59 am That is a recipe for nuclear war.

According to you everything seems to be a recipe for nuclear war.

They must think like Putin’s lot who in the past have claimed that economic sanctions and complaining about poisonings in Salisbury are provocation of a nuclear power.

EACLucifer wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 5:53 am

Grumble wrote: Sun Apr 10, 2022 9:27 pm

Herainestold wrote: Sun Apr 10, 2022 6:53 pm Sorry I shouldn't have phrased it that way.

Getting back to Jezza's editorial, how does the West convince Russia to bargain in good faith?
There isn't going to be an unconditional surrender like WW2, there will be no march on Moscow.

It seems they are more intent on total war now, than they were a couple of weeks ago.

What kind of pressure can be put on Moscow? Sanctions obviously are not working.
They sound more hyped up and bloodthirsty every day.

Sinking all their ships in the Black Sea. Destroying their army. Destroying their Air Force. At least the bits that are in Ukraine. Don’t touch anything not in Ukraine or not threatening Ukraine. Also, refuse to negotiate with Putin. Humiliate the f.cker.

This. The one thing that can drive Russia to the negotiating table with reasonable terms is defeat. In the Yom Kippur War, for example, Egypt negotiated because Israel had encircled and trapped the Egyptian 3rd Army.

TopBadger wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 11:47 am

Herainestold wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 4:59 am That is a recipe for nuclear war.

According to you everything seems to be a recipe for nuclear war.

Indeed, one more reason not to let our emotions get the better of us is that the only way Putin can save himself from his own fiasco is to bait the West into an attack. Nothing would help him more, at home or abroad, than if the United States or any other NATO country were to enter direct hostilities with Russian forces. Putin would then use the conflict to rally his people and threaten conventional and nuclear attacks against NATO. He would become a hero at home, and Ukraine would be forgotten.

bjn wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 8:53 pm I’m seeing a range of tweets that chemical agents have been dropped on Mariupol in the last hour.

Stranger Mouse wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 12:27 pm

TopBadger wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 11:47 am

Herainestold wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 4:59 am That is a recipe for nuclear war.

According to you everything seems to be a recipe for nuclear war.

We are not allowed to dox on here (quite rightly) but I’m tempted to say “Herainestold is Clare Daly and I claim my £5”

This video is to be seen to be believed

https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1 ... i5tS6dS2ZQ

lpm wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 10:52 pm Nato have been unable to confirm, as yet.

Many tweets, only one source - the Azov Battalion. Who are good for shooting Russians, bad for everything else.