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Re: COVID-19
Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2020 8:15 pm
by bmforre
Report from NHS on the brink
Recommended.
Small detail: Someone's been covering up "use by" dates on protective masks.
Re: COVID-19
Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2020 8:29 pm
by FlammableFlower
As Dave says, it'll be sufficiently trained staff that will be a hell of a limit to the plan. Looking after someone on a ventilator isn't just wandering in and out, posing a few buttons and listening it to see if the machine goes ping.
Re: COVID-19
Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2020 8:33 pm
by bmforre
FlammableFlower wrote: Wed Mar 18, 2020 8:29 pm
As Dave says, it'll be sufficiently trained staff that will be a hell of a limit to the plan. Looking after someone on a ventilator isn't just wandering in and out, posing a few buttons and listening it to see if the machine goes ping.
And rolling in on bulldozers won't solve the critical issues.
Re: COVID-19
Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2020 8:43 pm
by EACLucifer
Seems that training staff is the key; how long would it take to get medical and nursing students trained in some of the basic ventilator techniques etc? A lot of them have already done a bunch of work in hospitals, and might not be any less in a position to learn than, say, specialists from utterly unrelated disciplines*.
*I gather Italy has been reduced to using pathologists for frontline care at times
Re: COVID-19
Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2020 8:49 pm
by Pucksoppet
EACLucifer wrote: Wed Mar 18, 2020 8:43 pm
Seems that training staff is the key; how long would it take to get medical and nursing students trained in some of the basic ventilator techniques etc? A lot of them have already done a bunch of work in hospitals, and might not be any less in a position to learn than, say, specialists from utterly unrelated disciplines*.
*I gather Italy has been reduced to using pathologists for frontline care at times
Presumably they have already called upon the veterinary surgeons. Someone pointed out that they too have ventilators.
Re: COVID-19
Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2020 8:52 pm
by EACLucifer
Pucksoppet wrote: Wed Mar 18, 2020 8:49 pm
EACLucifer wrote: Wed Mar 18, 2020 8:43 pm
Seems that training staff is the key; how long would it take to get medical and nursing students trained in some of the basic ventilator techniques etc? A lot of them have already done a bunch of work in hospitals, and might not be any less in a position to learn than, say, specialists from utterly unrelated disciplines*.
*I gather Italy has been reduced to using pathologists for frontline care at times
Presumably they have already called upon the veterinary surgeons. Someone pointed out that they too have ventilators.
I presumed they would have been working on ventilator scale-up before this monday, too. If there's a sensible, helpful thing most nations are doing, it's not sound to presume our government are.
Hell, I've a relative who is a doctor, between jobs as he's moving house. Nobody's asked him to get to work immediately, and I'm not sure how his own attempts to get involved have gone yet.
Re: COVID-19
Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2020 9:03 pm
by badger
Not read the article but the use by date change was raised in yesterday's Health Select Committee meeting with NHS top brass. Masks were put through QA tests and dated accordingly. No conspiracy or cock up.
Re: COVID-19
Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2020 9:04 pm
by EACLucifer
jimbob wrote: Wed Mar 18, 2020 6:07 pmMeanwhile Trump has ordered hospital ships to help - they're "big white ships with red crosses"
I still can't quite believe I heard even him say that.
It takes Trump to make a good idea sound stupid. Hospital ships are actually a good thing to bring into use at this point, or at least, those with ICUs are. We don't have a formal hospital ship here*, but RFA Argus has an ICU that really oughtn't be sitting empty if she can be brought into an appropriate port.
*It's not white, no red crosses on it. It is big, though, but it's also armed, hence no such designation.
Re: COVID-19
Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2020 9:11 pm
by nekomatic
badger wrote: Wed Mar 18, 2020 9:03 pmNot read the article but the use by date change was raised in yesterday's Health Select Committee meeting with NHS top brass. Masks were put through QA tests and dated accordingly. No conspiracy or cock up.
Thanks, I thought this would probably be the case. I tried to beat back some out-of-date-mask-outrage on Twitter a day or two ago but had only my own speculation to go on…
Re: COVID-19
Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2020 9:47 pm
by Gfamily
Woodchopper wrote: Wed Mar 18, 2020 7:10 pm
lpm wrote: Wed Mar 18, 2020 6:48 pm
The UK has an Army Corps of Engineers, right? The Royal Engineers? Do they have bulldozers, builders, teams all ready to roll, able to build a 500 bed Treatment Centre in a couple of days?
They could be used, though it might be a better idea to use a construction company.
In China they just requisitioned building like hotels or sports arenas. If they are empty anyway that would be easiest.
Gary Neville is emptying his hotels of guests so that NHS staff who need to isolate themselves from their family while working can stay for free. And he's guaranteeing the wages of his staff.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/51953883
Re: COVID-19
Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2020 10:14 pm
by AMS
Woodchopper wrote: Wed Mar 18, 2020 7:10 pm
lpm wrote: Wed Mar 18, 2020 6:48 pm
The UK has an Army Corps of Engineers, right? The Royal Engineers? Do they have bulldozers, builders, teams all ready to roll, able to build a 500 bed Treatment Centre in a couple of days?
They could be used, though it might be a better idea to use a construction company.
In China they just requisitioned building like hotels or sports arenas. If they are empty anyway that would be easiest.
Indeed. Using existing buildings makes more sense than starting from an empty field. What about places like Earl's Court or the NEC?
Re: COVID-19
Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2020 10:37 pm
by EACLucifer
Gfamily wrote: Wed Mar 18, 2020 9:47 pm
Woodchopper wrote: Wed Mar 18, 2020 7:10 pm
lpm wrote: Wed Mar 18, 2020 6:48 pm
The UK has an Army Corps of Engineers, right? The Royal Engineers? Do they have bulldozers, builders, teams all ready to roll, able to build a 500 bed Treatment Centre in a couple of days?
They could be used, though it might be a better idea to use a construction company.
In China they just requisitioned building like hotels or sports arenas. If they are empty anyway that would be easiest.
Gary Neville is emptying his hotels of guests so that NHS staff who need to isolate themselves from their family while working can stay for free. And he's guaranteeing the wages of his staff.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/51953883
That looks like a fantastic idea. Chelsea FC have done similar, and in response to that, the NHS asked for more of that sort of thing. Surely we should be trying to requisition hotels in the relevant areas, or offering funding for them to convert? Hell, it might even keep people employed. Hotel cleaners could potentially retrain fairly easily into staff lodgings cleaners.
Re: COVID-19
Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2020 10:39 pm
by lpm
Yes. The govt is being slow to cotton on to the fact that we have masses and masses of idle resources, waiting to be told how to deploy.
Re: COVID-19
Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2020 10:42 pm
by calmooney
lpm wrote: Wed Mar 18, 2020 2:28 pm
Potential for a London only lockdown.
No travel within the city, no entering/leaving.
Prepare to act soon if you wish to enter/leave without being part of a mad rush.
Yeah, they're being careful not to rule it out so it's probably on the cards soon, I assume the M25 will be the boundary? We're just inside it (Uxbridge) and are as prepared as we can reasonably be but it'll scupper my plan to drop off supplies to my self-isolating dad in Worcestershire. Hopefully home deliveries will resolve their problems soon.
Re: COVID-19
Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2020 10:48 pm
by Bird on a Fire
lpm wrote: Wed Mar 18, 2020 10:39 pm
Yes. The govt is being slow to cotton on to the fact that we have masses and masses of idle resources, waiting to be told how to deploy.
The UK government seems really really slow to make any decisions whatsoever, which isn't good right now. Or perhaps they just aren't good at communicating clearly.
Portugal is usually hopelessly inefficient and disorganised, but they've already managed to implement clear rules (e.g. 1/3 capacity in shops). My PhD funding body just emailed to say our contracts all get extended by at least a month due to the shutdown to help us catch up afterwards, with further extensions should the situation continue.
The UK has more money and much more organised bureaucracy, so it's quite surprising how much of a vacuum there is in terms of telling people how to behave. But what's to blame? Overstretched resources? A longstanding culture of reaction rather than proaction? Malice aforethought?
Re: COVID-19
Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2020 11:11 pm
by Little waster
Bird on a Fire wrote: Wed Mar 18, 2020 10:48 pm
lpm wrote: Wed Mar 18, 2020 10:39 pm
Yes. The govt is being slow to cotton on to the fact that we have masses and masses of idle resources, waiting to be told how to deploy.
The UK government seems really really slow to make any decisions whatsoever, which isn't good right now. Or perhaps they just aren't good at communicating clearly.
Portugal is usually hopelessly inefficient and disorganised, but they've already managed to implement clear rules (e.g. 1/3 capacity in shops). My PhD funding body just emailed to say our contracts all get extended by at least a month due to the shutdown to help us catch up afterwards, with further extensions should the situation continue.
The UK has more money and much more organised bureaucracy, so it's quite surprising how much of a vacuum there is in terms of telling people how to behave. But what's to blame? Overstretched resources? A longstanding culture of reaction rather than proaction? Malice aforethought?
I for one am shocked to find out the provenly lazy, dishonest and incompetent Johnson turned out to be a lazy, dishonest and incompetent PM, shocked I say!
Who could possibly have predicted that ...
Re: COVID-19
Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2020 6:47 am
by FredM
Re: COVID-19
Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2020 7:13 am
by bmforre
Would you counter Bono with Berlioz?
La Damnation de Faust?
Or Witches' Sabbath from Symphonie Fantastique?
Re: COVID-19
Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2020 7:31 am
by FredM
If I really wanted to depress myself even further I’d go for Laurie Anderson’s The Fifth Plague. However, Radio 4 cheered me up a couple of days ago by playing The Lark Ascending during the Today prog.
Re: COVID-19
Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2020 7:45 am
by headshot
You people don’t seem to be paying attention. The plan to use hotels has been discussed and they’re working with providers already. This was discussed on a BBC radio programme over the weekend.
Re: COVID-19
Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2020 8:32 am
by underhill
Is this 'working with providers' in the same way that Matt Hancock was 'working with supermarkets' to ensure food was delivered to people in self-isolation? Nearly two weeks ago now. How's that going?
Re: COVID-19
Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2020 8:34 am
by Woodchopper
Anyone able to point me toward evidence of the length of time someone will be infectious before they are aware of any symptoms?
Quite literally asking for a friend.
Re: COVID-19
Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2020 8:34 am
by Little waster
The guardian has produced a "helpful" working from home guide.
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/ ... -isolating
Tl;Dr version.
Take the thousands of pounds of cutting-edge IT devices you presumably have in the cupboard under the stairs, just behind the pile of old issues of People's Friends you've been stockpiling for just this moment.
Convert one of your many spare rooms (or artisanal shepherd's hut) into a home office, make sure your desk and chair are ergonomic from the range of options you have.
Deal with bored children by buying a neon "keep out" sign. Simples.
He says hunched up over the kitchen table on an old laptop with a noisy 6yo running around him.
Re: COVID-19
Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2020 8:41 am
by Woodchopper
Little waster wrote: Thu Mar 19, 2020 8:34 am
He says hunched up over the kitchen table on an old laptop with a noisy 6yo running around him.
Same here, but its 8 and 11 year olds.
Re: COVID-19
Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2020 8:46 am
by Woodchopper
Woodchopper wrote: Thu Mar 19, 2020 8:34 am
Anyone able to point me toward evidence of the length of time someone will be infectious before they are aware of any symptoms?
Quite literally asking for a friend.
Found this from here:
https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/sites/defaul ... anning.pdf
Transmission in pre-symptomatic stage of infection:In addition to casereports, pre-symptomatic transmission has been inferred through modelling,and the proportion of pre-symptomatic transmission was estimated to be around 48% and 62%[41].Pre-symptomatic transmissionwas deemed likely based ona shorter serial interval of COVID-19 (4.0 to 4.6 days) than the mean incubation period(fivedays)with the authors indicating that many secondary transmissions would have already occurred at the time when symptomatic cases are detected and isolated[42].Major uncertainties remain in assessing the influence of pre-symptomatic transmission on the overall transmission dynamics of the pandemic
But that's from 12 March and a lot has happened since then.