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Re: has education funding increased?
Posted: Thu Jan 02, 2020 3:15 pm
by sheldrake
Re: has education funding increased?
Posted: Thu Jan 02, 2020 5:13 pm
by plodder
sheldrake wrote: Thu Jan 02, 2020 2:39 pm The confounding factors are things you learn from when you fail, not reasons to pretend there was no objective success criteria in the first place.
My success criteria was to have an intelligent conversation with you, and I have failed. The confounding factor is your inability to listen. I have learned from this.
Re: has education funding increased?
Posted: Thu Jan 02, 2020 5:30 pm
by sheldrake
plodder wrote: Thu Jan 02, 2020 5:13 pm
sheldrake wrote: Thu Jan 02, 2020 2:39 pm The confounding factors are things you learn from when you fail, not reasons to pretend there was no objective success criteria in the first place.
My success criteria was to have an intelligent conversation with you, and I have failed. The confounding factor is your inability to listen. I have learned from this.
Perhaps you should try and explain what you mean instead of diving into ad-hominem whenever you can't get your point across.
'but you just don't get it <no further content, exasperated huff>' is not the opening gambit of an intelligent discussion.
Re: has education funding increased?
Posted: Thu Jan 02, 2020 5:41 pm
by plodder
The first link also has a link to Cambridge Bum of the Year.
Telegraph will be paywalled so I didn't bother trying.
The BBC one is a general unsubstantiated moan that if more people are meeting the highest standard then it's more difficult to identify the very best, which is an entirely different discussion.
Re: has education funding increased?
Posted: Thu Jan 02, 2020 6:02 pm
by Gfamily
plodder wrote: Thu Jan 02, 2020 5:41 pm
The BBC one is a general unsubstantiated moan that if more people are meeting the highest standard then it's more difficult to identify the very best, which is an entirely different discussion.
Also, Betteridge's Law of Headlines applies
Re: has education funding increased?
Posted: Thu Jan 02, 2020 7:16 pm
by sheldrake
The cambbridge quotes a named vambrudge academic. I will keep digging
Re: has education funding increased?
Posted: Thu Jan 02, 2020 7:56 pm
by sheldrake
Here's the Loughborough research that the Telegraph article referenced
https://www.lboro.ac.uk/media-centre/pr ... dards.html
It confirms that A-level maths got easier between the 60s and the 90s.
Re: has education funding increased?
Posted: Thu Jan 02, 2020 7:58 pm
by plodder
!!!! between 60 and 30 years ago some exams might have got easier, according to academics at Loughborough University. Therefore we should <blank>
Re: has education funding increased?
Posted: Thu Jan 02, 2020 7:59 pm
by plodder
we should worry, right? Things were pretty left wing back then. Acid and hippies and stuff. Unwholesome.
Re: has education funding increased?
Posted: Thu Jan 02, 2020 8:00 pm
by plodder
wait a minute: thatcher made things worse?
Re: has education funding increased?
Posted: Thu Jan 02, 2020 8:03 pm
by sheldrake
plodder wrote: Thu Jan 02, 2020 8:00 pm
wait a minute: thatcher made things worse?
It's quite possible she contributed. Although as we've already seen, it wasn't because she underfunded the sector.
Re: has education funding increased?
Posted: Thu Jan 02, 2020 8:05 pm
by sheldrake
plodder wrote: Thu Jan 02, 2020 7:58 pm
!!!! between 60 and 30 years ago some exams might have got easier, according to academics at Loughborough University. Therefore we should <blank>
I think you're missing the original point. I said that standards could go down despite increased per-pupil funding if the wrong cultural ethos or methods were in place. People disputed funding went up per pupil (but it did go up). They also disputed that standards declined; I've just shown you some evidence that is true, and I'm happy to keep digging. Do you want more evidence on that point, or would you rather dig into what went wrong so that standards went down despite more money (in real terms) per pupil ?
Re: has education funding increased?
Posted: Thu Jan 02, 2020 9:53 pm
by dyqik
sheldrake wrote: Thu Jan 02, 2020 8:05 pm
plodder wrote: Thu Jan 02, 2020 7:58 pm
!!!! between 60 and 30 years ago some exams might have got easier, according to academics at Loughborough University. Therefore we should <blank>
I think you're missing the original point. I said that standards could go down despite increased per-pupil funding if the wrong cultural ethos or methods were in place. People disputed funding went up per pupil (but it did go up).
Nope. You've not shown that.
Re: has education funding increased?
Posted: Thu Jan 02, 2020 10:08 pm
by plodder
Not even nearly. All there's been is a determined attempt to shoehorn in a pre-conceived and well-worn narrative. If not this, then some other subject.
Re: has education funding increased?
Posted: Thu Jan 02, 2020 10:20 pm
by sheldrake
plodder wrote: Thu Jan 02, 2020 10:08 pm
Not even nearly. All there's been is a determined attempt to shoehorn in a pre-conceived and well-worn narrative. If not this, then some other subject.
Has it occurred to you that the reason I seemed to believe this at the beginning of the discussion is because I'd already read about it in several non-tabloid sources? It's almost as if you think that a thing being widely believed despite not fitting with Labour party talking points automatically makes it the result of some right-wing propaganda campaign.
Dyqik, I do not understand why you would think funding per pupil hasn't increased in the overall education budget. Are you still disputing that, or only disputing that standards declined?
Re: has education funding increased?
Posted: Thu Jan 02, 2020 10:21 pm
by dyqik
sheldrake wrote: Thu Jan 02, 2020 10:20 pm
plodder wrote: Thu Jan 02, 2020 10:08 pm
Not even nearly. All there's been is a determined attempt to shoehorn in a pre-conceived and well-worn narrative. If not this, then some other subject.
Has it occurred to you that the reason I seemed to believe this at the beginning of the discussion is because I'd already read about it in several non-tabloid sources?
Dyqik, I do not understand why you would think funding per pupil hasn't increased in the overall education budget. Are you still disputing that, or only disputing that standards declined?
You should try explaining your reasoning without getting sidetracked.
Re: has education funding increased?
Posted: Thu Jan 02, 2020 10:24 pm
by sheldrake
The reasoning is simple; funding went up(1), standards went down(2). This shows that pouring more money into a system doesn't guarantee better outcomes. In particular, it failed to do so in our education system in the late 20th century.
If you dispute (1) or (2) say why. If you are willing to accept them but you think the reasoning doesn't follow, explain it.
Re: has education funding increased?
Posted: Thu Jan 02, 2020 10:39 pm
by plodder
It's not clear that "standards" have declined, and the funding picture is complex, with big differences for different age groups. Yet you have the same ready-made answer you have for everything else. Amazing.
Re: has education funding increased?
Posted: Thu Jan 02, 2020 10:44 pm
by sheldrake
plodder wrote: Thu Jan 02, 2020 10:39 pm
It's not clear that "standards" have declined, and the funding picture is complex, with big differences for different age groups. Yet you have the same ready-made answer you have for everything else. Amazing.
Funding increased for all age groups. I am happy to find more evidence that standards declined.
I don't think you realise the degree to which all of
your solutions seem to work from the same set of 'ready made' assumptions. That is what it sounds like when people with very different political opinions explain their views. The philosophical/cultural assumptions underpinning much of what you believe simply aren't shared by people to the right of centre. It doesn't mean they've read more narrowly or thought about it less than you.
Re: has education funding increased?
Posted: Thu Jan 02, 2020 10:57 pm
by sheldrake
Ofqual also found that GCSEs and A-levels had gotten easier, and after the 90s too.
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2 ... ays-ofqual
Re: has education funding increased?
Posted: Fri Jan 03, 2020 8:03 am
by plodder
sheldrake wrote: Thu Jan 02, 2020 10:44 pm
plodder wrote: Thu Jan 02, 2020 10:39 pm
It's not clear that "standards" have declined, and the funding picture is complex, with big differences for different age groups. Yet you have the same ready-made answer you have for everything else. Amazing.
Funding increased for all age groups. I am happy to find more evidence that standards declined.
I don't think you realise the degree to which all of
your solutions seem to work from the same set of 'ready made' assumptions. That is what it sounds like when people with very different political opinions explain their views. The philosophical/cultural assumptions underpinning much of what you believe simply aren't shared by people to the right of centre. It doesn't mean they've read more narrowly or thought about it less than you.
It’s very, very rare that I’ll propose solutions.
Re: has education funding increased?
Posted: Fri Jan 03, 2020 8:11 am
by plodder
This article highlights why I’m struggling to accept your point (currently shrouded in mystery, but soon to be revealed as “left wing teaching theory is to blame”).
Easier exams is not the same as worse teaching, especially if they associated with grade inflation. Easier exams and similar or worse results is a suggestion of worse teaching. If there’s been grade inflation it suggests the teachers are doing their jobs.
Usefully, your seven-year old article also says the following about funding, which is starting to turn into a consistent theme:
Meanwhile, more than half of headteachers say they have less money than last year despite the pupil premium.
The National Association of Head Teachers (NAHT) quizzed more than 2,000 heads on what difference the pupil premium had made to their school budget.
The pupil premium is an extra £600 awarded to schools annually per pupil eligible for free school meals. Some 53% of heads told the NAHT the money did not make up for losses elsewhere in their budgets, while almost a third – 32% – said it evened out a shortfall from the previous year.
Most heads said funds from the pupil premium were being spent on extra teaching assistants and one-to-one tuition.
Schools are also using the money to pay for resources, such as books and computers. Others are spending it on school trips and extra-curricular activities for their poorest pupils.
Re: has education funding increased?
Posted: Fri Jan 03, 2020 8:18 am
by sheldrake
plodder wrote: Fri Jan 03, 2020 8:11 am
why I’m struggling to accept your point (currently shrouded in mystery, but soon to be revealed as “left wing teaching theory is to blame”).
Easier exams is not the same as worse teaching, especially if they associated with grade inflation. Easier exams and similar or worse results is a suggestion of worse teaching. If there’s been grade inflation it suggests the teachers are doing their jobs.
Nobody used the phrase 'left wing'. You are projecting.
Do you accept that easier exams represent a decline in standards?
Usefully, your seven-year old article also says the following about funding, which is starting to turn into a consistent theme:
Meanwhile, more than half of headteachers say they have less money than last year despite the pupil premium.
The only consistent theme here is you latching on to a series of anecdotes to resist accepting the point I've demonstrated with multiple objective data sources now. And why is it relevant to you that the article is 7 years old ? Are you impugning the source?
UK education spending per pupil increased faster than inflation during this period. Has it occurred to you that the heads may not have been entirely accurate in what they said ? Has it occurred to you that the heads are telling the truth but all that extra funding disappeared into a bureaucracy somehow ? You're much less keen on thinking than you are on moaning about facts that you suspect may point to something politically 'unhelpful'.
Re: has education funding increased?
Posted: Fri Jan 03, 2020 8:25 am
by sheldrake
plodder wrote: Fri Jan 03, 2020 8:03 am
sheldrake wrote: Thu Jan 02, 2020 10:44 pm
plodder wrote: Thu Jan 02, 2020 10:39 pm
It's not clear that "standards" have declined, and the funding picture is complex, with big differences for different age groups. Yet you have the same ready-made answer you have for everything else. Amazing.
Funding increased for all age groups. I am happy to find more evidence that standards declined.
I don't think you realise the degree to which all of
your solutions seem to work from the same set of 'ready made' assumptions. That is what it sounds like when people with very different political opinions explain their views. The philosophical/cultural assumptions underpinning much of what you believe simply aren't shared by people to the right of centre. It doesn't mean they've read more narrowly or thought about it less than you.
It’s very, very rare that I’ll propose solutions.
Not exactly solutions. More extended complaints about what people
shouldn't do.
Re: has education funding increased?
Posted: Fri Jan 03, 2020 9:31 am
by plodder
Your perceptions are endlessly inventive and must be fascinating from the inside.