has education funding increased?

[sheldrake]

UK Education hasn't been improving in line with funding for a generation or so.

See the Baumol effect.

Yes. How do you think teachers could improve their productivity ?

[individualmember]

This discussion about education is a a level very much on an intellectual level far removed from what happens in everyday life.

An example from real life: the school my wife works in has had a lot of building work done to expand from 3 classes per year to 4 classes per year. Then, as a result of part of the old RAF base in Uxbridge being turned into an estate of new, mostly family homes, it was decided to build another school on that side of town. Consequently the increase from 3 to 4 classes at my wife’s school was dropped, as was the budget for it. And perhaps unsurprisingly the new houses over Hillingdon hill way haven’t been filled with young families, they have been mostly bought by childless couples who commute to the city, so that school is undersubscribed. And my wife’s school is having to look at redundancies while the demand for schooling in west London continues to rise.

My point is that decisions about capital spending have very significant effects in the education budget and its absurd to associate rising overall spending with resources available to schools to be used for teaching pupils. It doesn’t scale from the macro view to the local.

[lpm]

This is why we need to

(1) recruit better people, which means paying more and making teaching a high status occupation as in other European countries

(2) experiment with innovative ideas, such as 60 pupils per class, fully IT classrooms etc, as is being done in other European countries

(3) end the current situation of head teachers and heads of departments spending most of their energy in coping with being starved of resources - trying to get staff, managing decaying buildings and dealing with lack of books and IT - which isn't something faced so severely in other European countries

[individualmember]

Yes. How do you think teachers could improve their productivity ?

This is an interesting question. How do you measure productivity in teachers? Going by my mother’s experience (a teacher, now retired) and my wife’s experience (school admin), the very best teachers are invariably the ones dealing with special needs. I’ve had a lifetime of anecdotes about the extraordinary achievements of some of those. And they are the ones who don’t get academic qualifications from their pupils. So exam results are obviously a terrible way of trying to assess productivity.

[individualmember]

...
(3) end the current situation of head teachers and heads of departments spending most of their energy in coping with being starved of resources - trying to get staff, managing decaying buildings and dealing with lack of books and IT - which isn't something faced so severely in other European countries

On this bit, another anecdote (sorry, not really trying to derail, just keep it connected with life), when my wife’s old Head retired the school advertised the job for six months and got three applicants (one not at all suitable). That reflects how much people want to do such a difficult job on the salary it brings. As luck would have it the governors chose the one of the two realistic candidates who is an immigrant from South Africa and in my wife’s opinion she has turned out to be brilliant.

[Boustrophedon]

This is why we need to

(1) recruit better people, which means paying more and making teaching a high status occupation as in other European countries

(2) experiment with innovative ideas, such as 60 pupils per class, fully IT classrooms etc, as is being done in other European countries

(3) end the current situation of head teachers and heads of departments spending most of their energy in coping with being starved of resources - trying to get staff, managing decaying buildings and dealing with lack of books and IT - which isn't something faced so severely in other European countries

Ex teacher here: EOSTFU. Particularly the 60 pupils per class. Where does this happen? In what subjects? Can you compare chalk and cheese?

One way you can improve education is to stop f.cking about with it. Every enforced change in syllabus and testing absorbs a huge amount of effort from schools and teachers, effort that should be spent actually teaching.

[lpm]

Inside the primary school class with 63 pupils

Two teachers and two assistants, £750 of kit, breaks out into classes of 15, everyone seems to like it

[Boustrophedon]

Inside the primary school class with 63 pupils

Two teachers and two assistants, £750 of kit, breaks out into classes of 15, everyone seems to like it

So four staff for sixty pupils thats an effective class size of 15 or 16.

The IFS is similarly distrusted for using equally dubious methods, see Wiki.

LPM Nice work but must try harder 3/10

[plodder]

Schools can spend a lot of money on non-academic stuff, eg https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-48770759

[Martin_B]

This is why we need to ...

(3) end the current situation of head teachers and heads of departments spending most of their energy in coping with being starved of resources - trying to get staff, managing decaying buildings and dealing with lack of books and IT - which isn't something faced so severely in other European countries

Isn't this what the LEAs do? Or was it decided that they were an unnecessary level of management expense and headteachers were the best people to manage school budgets.

[Boustrophedon]

During my career I faced a real reduction in budget for my department every year. A reduction whether measured per pupil or in total. The schools I worked in suffered overall reduction of their budget too.

Perhaps we should aspire in the state sector, to the educational paradigms that market forces produce in the private sector? Smaller class sizes, not bigger, better buildings and facilities, higher paid teachers.

Just a thought.

[secret squirrel]

Inside the primary school class with 63 pupils

Two teachers and two assistants, £750 of kit, breaks out into classes of 15, everyone seems to like it

So four staff for sixty pupils thats an effective class size of 15 or 16.

The IFS is similarly distrusted for using equally dubious methods, see Wiki.

LPM Nice work but must try harder 3/10

In addition, from the article it's £750 per student.

Also, as an aside, with the caveat that my teaching is at the university level, in my opinion, the drive to bring technology into the classroom is mainly admin driven b.llsh.t.

[lpm]

Inside the primary school class with 63 pupils

Two teachers and two assistants, £750 of kit, breaks out into classes of 15, everyone seems to like it

So four staff for sixty pupils thats an effective class size of 15 or 16.

The IFS is similarly distrusted for using equally dubious methods, see Wiki.

LPM Nice work but must try harder 3/10

I've no idea what you're on about. Are you opposed to trying these innovative experiments? Why? The teaching unions are against them, politicians have a knee-jerk reaction of imposing a rule based on their own childhood. Why are you and they feeling so threatened?

It's unlikely that the best teaching method in the 1980s will be the best method in the 2020s, just like the 1980s classroom was different to the 1940s. I'd like to see free schools in "working class" areas with the best equipment and teaching methods, instead of the status quo that so many people instinctively defend. Ultimately, correcting the problems of class and class relations is a very long term project that begins with education. How else will the children in poor families emerge as highly skilled adults earning a great salary?

[JQH]

Resistance to increased rigour Gove was trying to introduce was one example already given. Continued resistance to attempts to objectively measure children's educational progress, particularly when it's tied to the performance of teaching staff.

And how would you suggest educational progress be objectively measured?

By giving children across the country standard tests at various age checkpoints, as we do now.

Are you familiar with the term "teaching to the test"? I'll assume not as you appear to have wandered out of your comfort zone:

What happens is that SLTs want their school to look good so they want a high pass rate in the SATs. So they pressurise teachers to get these good results by practicing doing the tests. So we get students who are good at doing the tests but have not been particularly well educated because so much time has been spent practicing doing SATs.

[Herainestold]

The only party that has the expertise to evaluate students are the teachers themselves. Not administrators nor brueaucrats or statisticians, but the people doing the real work on the ground.

[lpm]

Yes, let people assess themselves, that always works just brilliantly.

[Herainestold]

Yes, let people assess themselves, that always works just brilliantly.

Impugning the abilities of teachers has always worked to im prove the quality of education, yes it has.

[sheldrake]

Yes. How do you think teachers could improve their productivity ?

This is an interesting question. How do you measure productivity in teachers? Going by my mother’s experience (a teacher, now retired) and my wife’s experience (school admin), the very best teachers are invariably the ones dealing with special needs. I’ve had a lifetime of anecdotes about the extraordinary achievements of some of those. And they are the ones who don’t get academic qualifications from their pupils. So exam results are obviously a terrible way of trying to assess productivity.

My father was a teacher. I have a son with special needs. I am not being cold when I say this; but the scientific part of you must see these are anecdotes from people who have developed emotional bonds with one another, rather than validations of the effectiveness of the techniques and opinions of present day teachers.

[sheldrake]

Yes, let people assess themselves, that always works just brilliantly.

Impugning the abilities of teachers has always worked to improve the quality of education, yes it has.

Maybe if they weren't so defensive about their abilities being measured, and weren't so quick to resist methods that lots of parents can see work just fine (e.g. teaching grammar and punctuation in a methodical and rigorous way), they'd be trusted more?

I do understand the term 'teaching to the test'. That's not necessarily bad, if the test measures the right things. You wouldn't be annoyed with a driving instructor for doing this.

[dyqik]

I do understand the term 'teaching to the test'. That's not necessarily bad, if the test measures the right things. You wouldn't be annoyed with a driving instructor for doing this.

I would be. It's also why insurance is so expensive for the first several years of driving, and why advanced driving instructors exist.

[sheldrake]

This is why we need to

(1) recruit better people, which means paying more and making teaching a high status occupation as in other European countries

Or stop focussing on the volume of work they do and focus on the quality. Lots of very gifted people who became famous authors worked as schoolteachers because the hours and long holidays used to suit people who had a second life, painting, writing novels etc.. I'm fine with that.

(2) experiment with innovative ideas, such as 60 pupils per class, fully IT classrooms etc, as is being done in other European countries

Just watch the teaching union's response if that is proposed.

(3) end the current situation of head teachers and heads of departments spending most of their energy in coping with being starved of resources - trying to get staff, managing decaying buildings and dealing with lack of books and IT - which isn't something faced so severely in other European countries

They're not starved of resources. They've had funding increase faster than inflation for 3 decades now. They're currently doing a worse job of educating their pupils than many teachers in rural areas of considerably poorer countries.

[sheldrake]

I do understand the term 'teaching to the test'. That's not necessarily bad, if the test measures the right things. You wouldn't be annoyed with a driving instructor for doing this.

I would be. It's also why insurance is so expensive for the first several years of driving, and why advanced driving instructors exist.

Is it that you think the driving test tests the wrong things, or is it that there's no substitute for real world experience once somebody reaches a certain level ?

I think it's the latter. I haven't yet met anybody who would prefer their driving instructor not to be concerned with getting them to pass the test.

[plodder]

Yes, let people assess themselves, that always works just brilliantly.

Impugning the abilities of teachers has always worked to im prove the quality of education, yes it has.

Hmm. My teachers were mainly sh.t from my perspective, but I'm sure if you asked them they were just dandy.

[plodder]

Also I posted a link that mentioned how some English schools have reducing teaching hours to a half day on Friday due to funding shortages, mainly because of the significant increase in pastoral care costs they have to bear. That never used to be a thing. Can someone who thinks these schools are wealthier please respond to this please?

[dyqik]

I do understand the term 'teaching to the test'. That's not necessarily bad, if the test measures the right things. You wouldn't be annoyed with a driving instructor for doing this.

I would be. It's also why insurance is so expensive for the first several years of driving, and why advanced driving instructors exist.

Is it that you think the driving test tests the wrong things, or is it that there's no substitute for real world experience once somebody reaches a certain level ?

I think it's the latter. I haven't yet met anybody who would prefer their driving instructor not to be concerned with getting them to pass the test.

Bzzzzt. False dichotomy.

One can both teach to pass the test, and also teach things that are important but that aren't tested.

Teaching to the test means teaching only the things that are required by the test.