Scrutable

Exactly. Nobody has to self-flagellate and say they were wrong about Brexit if they don't believe it. Just accept that ship has sailed and stop talking about it in interviews. Replace Corbyn with somebody reassuringly patriotic and Northern (maybe that Dan Jarvis who was in the paras) and talk about stuff like getting better dementia care and housing for young people.

lpm wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 5:07 pmAgreed. Labour should leap-frog straight to the fights of 2024. It's fairly easy to predict what they'll be. And it won't be Leave vs Remain.

I agree with not fighting the battles of the past. But I think that's about step 8. The first steps are more about building a stable foundation which gives Labour the potential to win in the future. That includes making progress in local elections to start rebuilding the grassroots of the party. I don't think winning in 2024 should even really be a serious target. Although obviously they should be trying to do as well as possible and in policy terms the two aren't that different (the target seats are though).

Labour has a difficult decision to make around Scotland too about whether it plans for a 2nd Independence referendum. That would be a difficult call even if they were in a good situation electorally and organisationally.

It was siding with "no" and the Tories in the last indy referendum that killed them off in Scotland, when they went from 41 seats in 2010 to just 1 in 2015. Can't see them doing that again. I suspect they'd pull the "neutral" trick again, but with every MP able to campaign independently.

I just saw an interview with Starmer where he said

“We are going to leave the EU in the next few weeks; and it’s important for all of us, including myself, to realise that the argument for leave and remain goes with it. We are leaving. We will have left the EU."

“This election blew away the argument for a second referendum, rightly or wrongly, and we have to adjust to that situation."

First candidate to show signs of having truly processed the situation.

sheldrake wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 5:49 pm Exactly. Nobody has to self-flagellate and say they were wrong about Brexit if they don't believe it. Just accept that ship has sailed and stop talking about it in interviews. Replace Corbyn with somebody reassuringly patriotic and Northern (maybe that Dan Jarvis who was in the paras) and talk about stuff like getting better dementia care and housing for young people.

Oddly enough I find myself agreeing with you.

I don't. I think there is a sizeable number of people who are aware that Brexit is a sh.t idea and would like their opposition leader to goad the PM through the process of transition and trying to strike a better deal than we have now.

Besides, happily we haven't had a second referendum on the matter, so as long as we stay outside the EU, the original ref is considered honoured. Any future government is at liberty to jettison any trade agreements and fall back in line with the SM and CU at any point, because there's no democratic reason not to. Lack of clarity = open opportunity

Unhappily we have a series of governments in store who will do exactly the opposite for the next 15 years.

JQH wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 10:29 pm

sheldrake wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 5:49 pm Exactly. Nobody has to self-flagellate and say they were wrong about Brexit if they don't believe it. Just accept that ship has sailed and stop talking about it in interviews. Replace Corbyn with somebody reassuringly patriotic and Northern (maybe that Dan Jarvis who was in the paras) and talk about stuff like getting better dementia care and housing for young people.

Oddly enough I find myself agreeing with you.

eh, me too

plodder wrote: Mon Jan 06, 2020 8:50 am I don't. I think there is a sizeable number of people who are aware that Brexit is a sh.t idea and would like their opposition leader to goad the PM through the process of transition and trying to strike a better deal than we have now.

You no longer have the MPs to drive those wishes with any force and won't do for 5 years. A Labour leader who rabbitted on about wanting to leave the EU or have another referendum in parliament at this point would just come across as a self-marginalising loony to most of the electorate. They have no parliamentary bargaining chips for this quixotic crusade any more.

Focus on things where the people who just voted Tory for the first time will still have doubts.

Yes, like how sh.t their Brexit is.

plodder wrote: Mon Jan 06, 2020 1:27 pm Yes, like how sh.t their Brexit is.

I don't think they have doubts about that. These people have a very different value system to you. Things that are meaningless or very tertiary to you are very important to them.

That's aside from all your economic catastrophe theories based on twitter punditry being wrong, ofc.

Yeah, OK. What's great about this is that you're deciding what I think then disagreeing with it, then laughing about it, then deciding what I think again.

Brexit is, as a matter of objective fact, going to be pretty crap, especially to begin with. An opposition politician would have to be off their rocker to let that slide. It's entirely possible for them simply to stand and point and say "is that really the best you can do?". Corbyn could have got away with that, if he hadn't been an idiot.

plodder wrote: Mon Jan 06, 2020 1:30 pm Yeah, OK. What's great about this is that you're deciding what I think then disagreeing with it, then laughing about it, then deciding what I think again.

Untrue. You told me what you think about this, many, many, many times.

Brexit is, as a matter of objective fact, going to be pretty crap, especially to begin with.

Nonsense.

It's going to make no difference to begin with. 2020 will just carry on.

Which means some voters will be disappointed - no magic waving away of their problems, no wonderful new patriotism making them feel different, no £350m per second extra for the NHS.

By 2021-22 this disappointment will increase, possibly combined with some Brexit-related f.ck ups.

The key for Labour is not to blame Brexit for any of this. Go straight to blaming Boris Johnson. Make the Conservatives own the disappointment, do not under any circumstances allocated it to Brexit. Make Leave voters feel they were right but the Conservatives were sh.t.

A budget increase larger than 350 million per week for the NHS was announced in the Queen's speech.

... which is basically just running to stand still. The pressures on the NHS won't be going away - unless Johnson seizes the opportunity, massively funds the NHS and wins in 2024 by making the NHS the Conservative's strongest card.

lpm wrote: Mon Jan 06, 2020 2:04 pm ... which is basically just running to stand still. The pressures on the NHS won't be going away - unless Johnson seizes the opportunity, massively funds the NHS and wins in 2024 by making the NHS the Conservative's strongest card.

He only has to convince people that Labour wouldn't have done better and that their front bench is still composed of continuity remainers and people who instinctively recoil from the union jack as a racist emblem rather than feeling warm fuzzy feelings of nostalgia or pride. As of today, his job would not be difficult.

sheldrake wrote: Mon Jan 06, 2020 2:06 pm instinctively recoil from the union jack as a racist emblem rather than feeling warm fuzzy feelings of nostalgia or pride.

Depends on which part of Empire/Commonwealth you come from I would guess

Gentleman Jim wrote: Mon Jan 06, 2020 2:15 pm

sheldrake wrote: Mon Jan 06, 2020 2:06 pm instinctively recoil from the union jack as a racist emblem rather than feeling warm fuzzy feelings of nostalgia or pride.

Depends on which part of Empire/Commonwealth you come from I would guess

Most of those people whose votes Labour just lost fall on the other side of this cultural divide from the current Labour front bench.

Yes, they do.

For those thinking of joining Labour to take part in the election, you don't have to become a full member. It'll cost you 25 quid to be a registered supporter, but you will have to do it between 14th and 16th Jan.

20th Jan is the deadline for full membership, or joining an affiliate.

sheldrake wrote: Mon Jan 06, 2020 2:00 pm A budget increase larger than 350 million per week for the NHS was announced in the Queen's speech.

But of course we haven't left yet, so I eagerly await a further £350m per week after Brexit

Trinucleus wrote: Mon Jan 06, 2020 8:57 pm

sheldrake wrote: Mon Jan 06, 2020 2:00 pm A budget increase larger than 350 million per week for the NHS was announced in the Queen's speech.

But of course we haven't left yet, so I eagerly await a further £350m per week after Brexit

The budget increase is scheduled for after we leave