Scrutable

The Good Lord helps those who help themselves

Didn't think you would.

All you have to do is read

sheldrake wrote: Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:50 pm All you have to do is read

Look, it was a genuine question, and if you can't be bothered to support your arguments, I think it's fair enough to suggest you're either just trolling, or you think your argument isn't really supportable.
If you can't support your own position I'll be justified in ignoring it as well.

So which single market rules (rather than EU and EEA rules) do the Swiss not have to follow?

I already posted exactly what you're asking me. You just have to read my last few posts in this thread. As a minimum, I expect you to read my previous posts in a thread before asking me questions about them. I am not going to continually repost things or re-link to old posts for people who cannot be bothered to do that.

sheldrake wrote: Fri Dec 27, 2019 9:47 pm I already posted exactly what you're asking me. You just have to read my last few posts in this thread. As a minimum, I expect you to read my previous posts in a thread before asking me questions about them. I am not going to continually repost things or re-link to old posts for people who cannot be bothered to do that.

You've made many claims. Which one are you referring to?
All I need is a link to the post you want me to read.

I haven't made many posts where I specifically list things Switzerland isn't bound by, but which EU and EEA members are, as it participates in the Single Market.

Seek and ye shall find.

sheldrake wrote: Fri Dec 27, 2019 11:09 pm I haven't made many posts where I specifically list things Switzerland isn't bound by, but which EU and EEA members are, as it participates in the Single Market.

Seek and ye shall find.

So are there Single Market rules, that the Swiss don't need to follow? You seemed to be saying that there were, but now you say they're EU / EEA rules.

So, the Swiss are bound by single market rules, yes?

No, they aren't. Not all of them.

Yeah but what sort of thing did you have in mind Sheldrake?

The state aid rules for industries? The Citizens Rights Directive?

If you're not sure, you could always check the post I wrote on the topic, in this thread.

sheldrake wrote: Sat Dec 28, 2019 2:02 am If you're not sure, you could always check the post I wrote on the topic, in this thread.

Was it the one that mentioned state aid rules and the Citizens Rights Directive?

Yws it was

As far as I can tell the only difference between the Citizens Rights Directive and the Bilateral Agreement on the Free Movement of Persons between Switzerland and the EU is that the latter doesn't automatically allow for the right to stay with the limitations dropped to eventually happen. So it seems a rather pedantic argument to say "aha, Switzerland doesn't have to obey the Citizens Rights Directive".

individualmember wrote: Mon Dec 30, 2019 8:41 am As far as I can tell the only difference between the Citizens Rights Directive and the Bilateral Agreement on the Free Movement of Persons between Switzerland and the EU is that the latter doesn't automatically allow for the right to stay with the limitations dropped to eventually happen. So it seems a rather pedantic argument to say "aha, Switzerland doesn't have to obey the Citizens Rights Directive".

Switzerland is still negotiating and hadn't signed a deal as of June this year

https://www.thelocal.ch/20190611/why-sw ... al-for-now

sheldrake wrote: Mon Dec 30, 2019 11:11 am

individualmember wrote: Mon Dec 30, 2019 8:41 am As far as I can tell the only difference between the Citizens Rights Directive and the Bilateral Agreement on the Free Movement of Persons between Switzerland and the EU is that the latter doesn't automatically allow for the right to stay with the limitations dropped to eventually happen. So it seems a rather pedantic argument to say "aha, Switzerland doesn't have to obey the Citizens Rights Directive".

Switzerland is still negotiating and hadn't signed a deal as of June this year

https://www.thelocal.ch/20190611/why-sw ... al-for-now

I was referring to the AFMP that came into force in 2002 (and modified in 2004, 2006, 2009 and 2017 to accommodate the additional EU members), not the current negotiations which would amalgamate a lot of different bilateral agreements into one big one.

individualmember wrote: Mon Dec 30, 2019 11:25 am

sheldrake wrote: Mon Dec 30, 2019 11:11 am

individualmember wrote: Mon Dec 30, 2019 8:41 am As far as I can tell the only difference between the Citizens Rights Directive and the Bilateral Agreement on the Free Movement of Persons between Switzerland and the EU is that the latter doesn't automatically allow for the right to stay with the limitations dropped to eventually happen. So it seems a rather pedantic argument to say "aha, Switzerland doesn't have to obey the Citizens Rights Directive".

Switzerland is still negotiating and hadn't signed a deal as of June this year

https://www.thelocal.ch/20190611/why-sw ... al-for-now

I was referring to the AFMP that came into force in 2002 (and modified in 2004, 2006, 2009 and 2017 to accommodate the additional EU members), not the current negotiations which would amalgamate a lot of different bilateral agreements into one big one.

You're pre-judging the outcome of a negotiation that was triggered by the Swiss population not accepting your view of what swiss immigration law should be. The citizen's rights directive has not been transposed into Swiss law.

sheldrake wrote: Mon Dec 30, 2019 11:28 am

individualmember wrote: Mon Dec 30, 2019 11:25 am
I was referring to the AFMP that came into force in 2002 (and modified in 2004, 2006, 2009 and 2017 to accommodate the additional EU members), not the current negotiations which would amalgamate a lot of different bilateral agreements into one big one.

You're pre-judging the outcome of a negotiation that was triggered by the Swiss population not accepting your view of what swiss immigration law should be. The citizen's rights directive has not been transposed into Swiss law.

Firstly, no I'm not prejudging anything, I'm referring to the existing AFMP, not whatever the future might hold.

Secondly, I'm not even close to claiming that the citizen's rights directive has been, is now, or might be in the future, transposed into Swiss law. What I'm pointing out is that the existing AFMP is very similar to it in practice.

As it happens I have an uncle and aunt who moved to Switzerland a bit over a decade ago, their experience was slightly more hoops to jump through to get permanent residency but otherwise very similar to relocating to any EU country.

I think acknowledging that the future may not look like today is pretty important. It's also clear that Switzerland *does not* accept all of the rules which some remainers in the UK (and representatives of the EU commission) have insisted are necessary for access to the single market.

Likewise for state aid rules.

sheldrake wrote: Mon Dec 30, 2019 12:22 pm I think acknowledging that the future may not look like today is pretty important. It's also clear that Switzerland *does not* accept all of the rules which some remainers in the UK (and representatives of the EU commission) have insisted are necessary for access to the single market.

Likewise for state aid rules.

In terms of what the future looks like, it is indeed unclear whether the Swiss will remain in the single market.

If the "Northern Ireland Experiment" works, the Swiss might do it on a canton by canton basis? Their government is highly devolved I believe.

Gfamily wrote: Mon Dec 30, 2019 12:27 pm

sheldrake wrote: Mon Dec 30, 2019 12:22 pm I think acknowledging that the future may not look like today is pretty important. It's also clear that Switzerland *does not* accept all of the rules which some remainers in the UK (and representatives of the EU commission) have insisted are necessary for access to the single market.

Likewise for state aid rules.

In terms of what the future looks like, it is indeed unclear whether the Swiss will remain in the single market.

They have full access at the moment without adopting the rules on state aid or the full rules on free movement that the EEA states have had to. I think given that our economy is four times the size of theirs and we're strategically powerful in other ways, we have a stronger negotiating position.

sheldrake wrote: Mon Dec 30, 2019 4:16 pm They have full access at the moment without adopting the rules on state aid or the full rules on free movement that the EEA states have had to. I think given that our economy is four times the size of theirs and we're strategically powerful in other ways, we have a stronger negotiating position.

I’m not sure that the benefits/drawbacks of unrestricted trade between the EU and Switzerland has much in common with the benefits/drawbacks of unrestricted trade between the EU and the UK. I don’t think that Switzerland is much of a conduit for things outside the EU to enter the EU market like we are. Or that they have such a well developed reputation for being untrustworthy like we do - Perfidious Albion and all that.

My gut feeling is that whereas the EU is generally quite vague, allowing a degree of interpretation by the national governments when they put EU directives, etc, into national law, there is going to be a lot that they’ll want to have nailed down precisely in a deal with the UK. Which isn’t really about having a strong negotiating position as such, it’s really a question of how long it’s likely to take to reach agreed wordings on a vast number of clauses that would be acceptable to all the member countries. I expect we will get most of what we want out of the EU, as we have always done, but it’s going to take a lot of years to get it done.

It certainly seems that both trust and goodwill will be in short supply, even if the desire for a deal is there.