Scrutable

TopBadger wrote: Thu Mar 20, 2025 11:14 am Question on practicalities for EV owners - do all public charging stations have their own cable to plug in? Or do you have to cart a cable around with you on longer journeys?

You get a 7 kW AC cable with the car, for slow charging in long term car parks and the like.

The fast DC charging stations all have their own cables - massive heavy things that can deliver 100 kW and up.

Right - paid my deposit and joining the EV revolution.

Can't quite believe the deal I got - never before have I felt like I've robbed a car dealership. Some crazy discounts on EV's at the moment.

TopBadger wrote: Fri Mar 21, 2025 9:57 am Right - paid my deposit and joining the EV revolution.

Can't quite believe the deal I got - never before have I felt like I've robbed a car dealership. Some crazy discounts on EV's at the moment.

We have some friends who recently bought an MG 4 EV, and they got something like 13 grand off the price.

Gfamily wrote: Fri Mar 21, 2025 12:30 pm

TopBadger wrote: Fri Mar 21, 2025 9:57 am Right - paid my deposit and joining the EV revolution.

Can't quite believe the deal I got - never before have I felt like I've robbed a car dealership. Some crazy discounts on EV's at the moment.

We have some friends who recently bought an MG 4 EV, and they got something like 13 grand off the price.

That's what I just did, also MG4 and got £11,500 off a Trophy Long Range, maybe I should have held out for more off!

TopBadger wrote: Thu Mar 13, 2025 11:03 am I have Solar which I export to the grid so am on a tariff that doesn't have off-peak. I don't know of any tariffs that allow both cheaper off-peak usage and export... it seems to be they offer one or the other. Or it was last time I looked.

Just wanted to point out that my above post is now bollocks - maybe it was right at some point in time - but it is now possible to be on Octopus Export and Octopus Go (off-peak intended for EV's) at the same time. If this was available two years ago then I missed it and otherwise would have gone for it because I have battery storage - so better to charge up the house battery overnight at 7-9p/kWh, sell the solar generation back to the grid at 15p/kWh, and pocket the difference.

TopBadger wrote: Mon Mar 24, 2025 11:29 am

TopBadger wrote: Thu Mar 13, 2025 11:03 am I have Solar which I export to the grid so am on a tariff that doesn't have off-peak. I don't know of any tariffs that allow both cheaper off-peak usage and export... it seems to be they offer one or the other. Or it was last time I looked.

Just wanted to point out that my above post is now bollocks - maybe it was right at some point in time - but it is now possible to be on Octopus Export and Octopus Go (off-peak intended for EV's) at the same time. If this was available two years ago then I missed it and otherwise would have gone for it because I have battery storage - so better to charge up the house battery overnight at 7-9p/kWh, sell the solar generation back to the grid at 15p/kWh, and pocket the difference.

Even better than Octopus Go is Octopus Intelligent Go if you have a smart meter and a compatible charger.

Grumble wrote: Mon Mar 24, 2025 1:23 pm Even better than Octopus Go is Octopus Intelligent Go if you have a smart meter and a compatible charger.

Yep. But I went for a Pod Point Solo 3S - which is currently not on the supported list for Intelligent Go. Had I have known that I might have chosen something else, but then I chose the Pod Point as I got a discount on it. It may end up supported eventually.

Clearly there is a learning curve to the EV revolution and detangling all the offerings. Speaking of which - any tips for EV charging apps to use / avoid? I doubt we'd need to charge externally very often but best prepared and all that.

Actually - I ordered the Pod Point mid last week and have heard nothing - might cancel it and order the Ohme through Octopus as it's less expensive than the discounted price I got anyway.

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TopBadger wrote: Mon Mar 24, 2025 2:56 pm Actually - I ordered the Pod Point mid last week and have heard nothing - might cancel it and order the Ohme through Octopus as it's less expensive than the discounted price I got anyway.

I’ve got an Ohme ePod and had no issues. It’s very basic, externally at least. Just a socket on the wall effectively, but the clever stuff happens in the app/at Octopus

Can’t advise too much on charging apps, but Octopus have Electroverse and I’ve got the ZapMap and Tesla apps as well. Any new rapid chargers should support normal contactless payments.

Having read around a little more there is also the Zappi - £50 more than the Ohme but longer cable and supports Wifi connections whereas the Ohme is only 4g and it seems you have to pay for the connection after the initial 3 year period... plus I think it looks neater.

TopBadger wrote: Mon Mar 24, 2025 2:15 pm Speaking of which - any tips for EV charging apps to use / avoid? I doubt we'd need to charge externally very often but best prepared and all that.

I find ABRP (A Better Route Planner) to be more robust for planning journeys with charging than zapmap or electroverse. Electroverse is nice for making it simple to charge from multiple charging networks though, even if not using it for the nav.

Ended up cancelling the Pod Point to go with the Zappi from Octopus (better charger and less expensive to boot), especially since one week later I'd heard nothing from Pod Point. Got a call the same morning from Octopus regarding installation!

Sadly their call was to tell me that they wouldn't install from the garage consumer unit - which was upgraded around 2 years ago when we had the path between the house and garage re-laid, that upgrade was done specifically to be future proof and allow an EV charger later down the line. The installers policy is to install from the mains meter box only which would require a trench to be dug for their own cabling* - So that was an instant "no" from me.

Isn't it striking that these companies can take over £1000 instantly for a job unseen but a refund takes 3-5 days?

Am now getting a charger installed through the same private electrician who upgraded the garage CU - he does EV chargers and can't really complain about the existing cabling.

What a palaver.

*reminds me of Sky - who didn't want to use the existing coax throughout the house and wanted to run their own cable from the dish and punch extra holes in walls. No thanks.

This is why I've yet to get a charger put in. 1) We're on a loop, so that will need dealing with first - there was already enough of a problem 10+ years ago when we had a loft conversion and started pulling more power (next-door got a smell of melting plastic whenever the kids had a shower...) and 2) our meter and consumer unitx are all in the centre of the halls-adjoining semi and it's going to be an absolute nightmare with flooring to get cabling to outside. Like you TopBadger, there is already a cable going out to the (not physically connected garage) - but I thought that wouldn't be suitable for most installers to go off.

FlammableFlower wrote: Tue Mar 25, 2025 2:14 pm This is why I've yet to get a charger put in. 1) We're on a loop, so that will need dealing with first - there was already enough of a problem 10+ years ago when we had a loft conversion and started pulling more power (next-door got a smell of melting plastic whenever the kids had a shower...) and 2) our meter and consumer unitx are all in the centre of the halls-adjoining semi and it's going to be an absolute nightmare with flooring to get cabling to outside. Like you TopBadger, there is already a cable going out to the (not physically connected garage) - but I thought that wouldn't be suitable for most installers to go off.

I'm on a looped supply, and the provider let a Zappi install go ahead (with a max power limit set) while waiting "up to 18 months" to be developed

Wiring regs say that you should have a dedicated circuit for any load that regularly draws high power for an extended period, and of course you need a proper charger if you want to use a smart charging tariff, but aside from that I'm not convinced most people need a 7kW home charger for their electric cars. If you get roughly 3 miles range per kWh of charging then six hours from a normal socket should give you 40+ miles, which I'm sure is further than most people drive their cars most days.

nekomatic wrote: Thu Mar 27, 2025 2:49 pm Wiring regs say that you should have a dedicated circuit for any load that regularly draws high power for an extended period, and of course you need a proper charger if you want to use a smart charging tariff, but aside from that I'm not convinced most people need a 7kW home charger for their electric cars. If you get roughly 3 miles range per kWh of charging then six hours from a normal socket should give you 40+ miles, which I'm sure is further than most people drive their cars most days.

This is a reasonable line of argument. It tends to make me think that it would be useful to have a car which it is really easy to take some/most of the batteries out, and store them for the day when you want to drive more than 60km or whatever. So you aren't driving around much of the time with a huge amount of dead weight, consuming more energy and doing more damage to the road, your tyres and your suspension. Though it is going to require a bit of ingenuity to make it practical to manage batteries perhaps in the quantity of several hundred kg.

Though I think it is not actually very good for batteries to be kept nearly full most of the time. If you are to "smart charge" in the sense of managing your batteries to maximise life, then it becomes more complicated than just topping up the amount you travelled today. Some charging software is capable of taking such issues in to account, though you also have to communicate more with it about your plans.

And then there is the issue that a full battery gives you the option of driving a larger distance, without making time for an expensive fast charge, and without having to predict it some days in advance. We don't have to worry about such issues with liquid fuel.

And then there is the issue of potentially making that battery capacity available to reinforce the electricity network, which could become a valuable service. To make that worthwhile, you need a 2-way charger, which most today aren't, and a decent capacity like 7kW or even 14kW.

So, it's all a bit complicated really. And most people don't want that complication.

IvanV wrote: Thu Mar 27, 2025 3:07 pm Though I think it is not actually very good for batteries to be kept nearly full most of the time. If you are to "smart charge" in the sense of managing your batteries to maximise life, then it becomes more complicated than just topping up the amount you travelled today. Some charging software is capable of taking such issues in to account, though you also have to communicate more with it about your plans.

And then there is the issue that a full battery gives you the option of driving a larger distance, without making time for an expensive fast charge, and without having to predict it some days in advance. We don't have to worry about such issues with liquid fuel.
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So, it's all a bit complicated really. And most people don't want that complication.

Rule of thumb (an old site, but it's the one that sticks in my head) seems to be that charging no further than c. 80% of nominal capacity largely avoids capacity-reducing damage. So you would lose 20% of nominal range by doing that, or maybe 25% of actual range if you don't want to drop below 20% capacity. But that only really affects unexpected long journeys that are between 60% and 80% of your car's range, because any longer than that and you'd need a charging stop anyway. And the car can control its own charging, so it doesn't need to be more complicated than a menu setting that's either 'preserve my battery health' or 'give me maximum range tomorrow morning'. Although there's no limit on how difficult car UI designers can make it to access such a setting.

I expect vehicle-to-grid will take off as and when we get sufficient numbers of V2G capable cars on the roads, and the incentive will be on electricity suppliers to make it as easy as possible to use to maximise takeup.

nekomatic wrote: Thu Mar 27, 2025 3:41 pm I expect vehicle-to-grid will take off as and when we get sufficient numbers of V2G capable cars on the roads, and the incentive will be on electricity suppliers to make it as easy as possible to use to maximise takeup.

I assisted with a research project on V2G last year, a desk-study snap-shot of where we are up to with it. One of the main impediments to straightforward take-up is a bunch of bureaucratic rules and approvals which are up to the government to simplify if it wants this to happen at any material scale.

nekomatic wrote: Thu Mar 27, 2025 2:49 pm Wiring regs say that you should have a dedicated circuit for any load that regularly draws high power for an extended period, and of course you need a proper charger if you want to use a smart charging tariff, but aside from that I'm not convinced most people need a 7kW home charger for their electric cars. If you get roughly 3 miles range per kWh of charging then six hours from a normal socket should give you 40+ miles, which I'm sure is further than most people drive their cars most days.

It might well be enough for most, and you may be able to get a time of use tariff and use the car to dictate the timings. You won’t be able to use a smart tariff though. Personally my commute is about 50 miles per day so I’m happier with a 7kW charger. Also a long trip doesn’t require quite as much planning if you can get a full charge overnight.

nekomatic wrote: Thu Mar 27, 2025 2:49 pm Wiring regs say that you should have a dedicated circuit for any load that regularly draws high power for an extended period, and of course you need a proper charger if you want to use a smart charging tariff, but aside from that I'm not convinced most people need a 7kW home charger for their electric cars. If you get roughly 3 miles range per kWh of charging then six hours from a normal socket should give you 40+ miles, which I'm sure is further than most people drive their cars most days.

Dangerous. Normal sockets overheat if used continually for 6 hours at 2kW. Dedicated home chargers are essessential to avoid house fires and electrocutions. Fortunately installing home chargers has a payback of just a few months due to smart tariffs.

IvanV wrote: Thu Mar 27, 2025 3:07 pm This is a reasonable line of argument. It tends to make me think that it would be useful to have a car which it is really easy to take some/most of the batteries out, and store them for the day when you want to drive more than 60km or whatever. So you aren't driving around much of the time with a huge amount of dead weight, consuming more energy and doing more damage to the road, your tyres and your suspension. Though it is going to require a bit of ingenuity to make it practical to manage batteries perhaps in the quantity of several hundred kg.

What a glorious understatement! "A bit of ingenuity". Taking out half the batteries would require moving 160kg.

Reality is that any inefficiency of EVs is irrelevant to most people - it is so cheap to run nobody cares. Shifting out 160 kg of batteries would save in the region of 14p per hundred miles.

lpm wrote: Thu Mar 27, 2025 5:23 pm What a glorious understatement! "A bit of ingenuity". Taking out half the batteries would require moving 160kg.

Reality is that any inefficiency of EVs is irrelevant to most people - it is so cheap to run nobody cares. Shifting out 160 kg of batteries would save in the region of 14p per hundred miles.

Only 'so cheap' if you can park on your drive or similar.
Commercial charging is significantly more expensive and has the full rate of VAT applied.

lpm wrote: Thu Mar 27, 2025 5:23 pm

IvanV wrote: Thu Mar 27, 2025 3:07 pm This is a reasonable line of argument. It tends to make me think that it would be useful to have a car which it is really easy to take some/most of the batteries out, and store them for the day when you want to drive more than 60km or whatever. So you aren't driving around much of the time with a huge amount of dead weight, consuming more energy and doing more damage to the road, your tyres and your suspension. Though it is going to require a bit of ingenuity to make it practical to manage batteries perhaps in the quantity of several hundred kg.

What a glorious understatement! "A bit of ingenuity". Taking out half the batteries would require moving 160kg.

Reality is that any inefficiency of EVs is irrelevant to most people - it is so cheap to run nobody cares. Shifting out 160 kg of batteries would save in the region of 14p per hundred miles.

So the energy saving is nugatory. You are right, no one will bother about that. Maybe the increased car maintenance costs also prove to be small.

But there are substantial wider costs to driving around with unnecessarily heavy vehicles. Thinking about that a bit more carefully, the increased damage to people/objects you accidentally hit could be larger than the road damage issue. Heavier vehicles also tend to increase road noise - for tyre noise is most of road noise above low speeds. Given how many people like SUVs, getting them to think about their wider impact of their vehicle choices is probably hard, unless you somehow hit them in the pocket over it.

Chinese company NIO do battery swap options. Or at least did - not heard about them lately.

It is sort of impressive seeing the car pull into the charge station and automatic handling machines drop the existing pack out and out a new one in.

No reason in principle that lighter batteries couldbnt be an option