Scrutable

Gfamily wrote: Thu Mar 27, 2025 5:31 pm

lpm wrote: Thu Mar 27, 2025 5:23 pm What a glorious understatement! "A bit of ingenuity". Taking out half the batteries would require moving 160kg.

Reality is that any inefficiency of EVs is irrelevant to most people - it is so cheap to run nobody cares. Shifting out 160 kg of batteries would save in the region of 14p per hundred miles.

Only 'so cheap' if you can park on your drive or similar.
Commercial charging is significantly more expensive and has the full rate of VAT applied.

Charging our RAV4 Prime in our garage costs twice as much as putting petrol in it (33¢/kWh and 2.6-2.8 miles/kWh vs $2.80 a US gallon and 38-45 mp(US)g).

Over half the cost of electricity is in distribution charges, and that's before any tariffs imposed on the Canadian hydroelectricity that is a substantial part of our supply.

Installing solar (with net metering for supply and distribution charges) or using the free public chargers in shopping centers etc. is the only way to make EVs cheaper than gasoline here in the current tax environment.

dyqik wrote: Thu Mar 27, 2025 5:53 pm

Gfamily wrote: Thu Mar 27, 2025 5:31 pm

lpm wrote: Thu Mar 27, 2025 5:23 pm What a glorious understatement! "A bit of ingenuity". Taking out half the batteries would require moving 160kg.

Reality is that any inefficiency of EVs is irrelevant to most people - it is so cheap to run nobody cares. Shifting out 160 kg of batteries would save in the region of 14p per hundred miles.

Only 'so cheap' if you can park on your drive or similar.
Commercial charging is significantly more expensive and has the full rate of VAT applied.

Charging our RAV4 Prime in our garage costs twice as much as putting petrol in it (33¢/kWh and 2.6-2.8 miles/kWh vs $2.80 a US gallon and 38-45 mp(US)g).

Over half the cost of electricity is in distribution charges, and that's before any tariffs imposed on the Canadian hydroelectricity that is a substantial part of our supply.

Installing solar (with net metering for supply and distribution charges) or using the free public chargers in shopping centers etc. is the only way to make EVs cheaper than gasoline here in the current tax environment.

Smart meters and smart tariffs haven’t taken off yet in the USA have they?

dyqik wrote: Thu Mar 27, 2025 5:53 pm Charging our RAV4 Prime in our garage costs twice as much as putting petrol in it (33-35¢/kWh and 2.6 miles/kWh vs $2.80 a US gallon and 38 mp(US)g).

Over half the cost of electricity is in distribution charges, and that's before any tariffs imposed on the Canadian hydroelectricity that is a substantial part of our supply.

Installing solar (with net metering for supply and distribution charges) or using the free public chargers in shopping centers etc. is the only way to make EVs cheaper than gasoline here in the current tax environment.

Ouch that doesn't help
Over here the same volume would cost about £4.80, so $6.20 ish,
UK electricity is slightly cheaper if on standard tariff, but there are overnight charging tariffs that are significantly cheaper.
And Solar PV and a Home battery makes it possible to make round-town driving effectively cost free (apart from the possible loss of feed in tariff payments)

Grumble wrote: Thu Mar 27, 2025 5:59 pm Smart meters and smart tariffs haven’t taken off yet in the USA have they?

Depends on which town you live in, and who the monopoly electricity distributor is for that town. We have Eversource, who only do one rate (in our town). Adjacent towns have municipal electricity companies who own the wires and meters, and have different systems.

Gfamily wrote: Thu Mar 27, 2025 6:02 pm And Solar PV and a Home battery makes it possible to make round-town driving effectively cost free (apart from the possible loss of feed in tariff payments)

Octopus allow export and "economy 7" cheap overnight rates.

Given I can sell my power to the grid for 15p and it only costs 8.5p to charge my battery during the night, it's actually better to fill batteries overnight (not from solar) and sell all the solar you can back during the day and make the 6.5p difference on every excess kWh generated.

I do love seeing my negative electricity bills for 6 months of the year. Had solar for just over 2 years now and the novelty of cooking lunch whilst the digital energy meter reads zero hasn't worn off.

My wife and I are thinking about going electric. What would be a good car to get? Criteria:

• We're hoping to adopt in the next year or so, so the car will need to store the warehouse-worth of stuff that parents seem to need to cart everywhere these days. We'll be adopting a child around 2ish years of age.
• I also really f.cking hate SUVs. My wife would like an SUV, we perhaps could compromise on a mini-SUV, but I will feel filthy for several years. I know that every f.cking new car is an SUV these days. I cry.
• I occasionally drive long distances, up to Lancashire (190mi) or Cumbria (290mi), sometimes even Scotland (400+mi) or France (500+mi). I like driving long distances, but only do it every now and again. I do a fair bit of medium-distance motorway driving (100ish mi). A car that would work well with that would be great.
• It's nice to be able to overtake quickly when the need arises, as I can currently do, so having good performance is welcome, but if it's going to cost me an extra fifteen grand then I can relegate that priority.
• Elon Musk is a c.nt, I don't want a swasticar.

I realise applying these filters to most car lists will yield 0 results, so pick and choose as seems best. Apparently the Tesla model 3 is really good, so it's annoying that the head of Tesla is a Nazi.

My 2p’s worth, we’ve managed to raise two children with an Audi A3 and then a 1 series BMW, including long driving trips. You can raise kids and cart their junk in a sensible sized car. So something no bigger than an iD3 would have worked for us in the child rearing years. The new electric Renault 5 looks interesting as well.

We recently test drove the new Skoda Elroq small SUV - it's a nice car. New model though so not available used yet. And for small kids I would buy used because it's easier to accept a used car getting the inevitable beating that only kids can give.

You might look at the Enyaq which is very practically sized.

I read that you can pick up used Hyundai Ioniq 5's for around £20k now with reasonable milage and still more than a few years left on the warranty. They're also quite big for space, not as practical as the Enyaq but I figure you can add a roof box when you need the extra.

We already have a big family diesel car for when we temporarily move house go camping, hence we chose the MG4 because it's practical enough for most things we do without the dog, and current prices meant we could pretty much get a new one for about the same price as a used one.

All electric cars seem to accelerate just fine so I wouldn't be worried about the overtaking side of things.

One advantage for acceleration is the lack of gear changes l.
A now-retired colleague told me he used to leave other cars standing at traffic lights in his Nissan Leaf.

Not massively helpful...All I can chime in on is your points 4 and 5:

Electric cars have huge instant torque - I end up driving my Zoe (which would instantly fail on your size requirements) in Eco mode most of the time and that's got more than enough acceleration. With it off, you get the "push back in the seat" kind of acceleration.

As to the last point, there are so many choices now. It's no longer a Tesla/Leaf binary world. (There have been a lot of comments of social media re the Tesla-burning protests along the lines of "these lefty woke greens keep telling everyone how we've all got to have electric cars and now they're torching them and saying we shouldn't buy them", forgetting that there are some many options that aren't a Tesla now for electric cars.

Depends if you also boycott China.

I'd also say Skoda. Kia EV3 if you accept mini SUV. ID3. Renault.

If China then MG.

I also dislike SUVs and love the low roof height and carrying capacity of my ancient Astra G estate

(my 5.something metre sea kayak splits up in to three sections and I can carry it in the car instead of on the roof)

I'm nowhere near being able to afford an electric estate, but there are a few of them now, like the Peugeot e-308 SW, and an Astra that uses the same Stellantis platform

It sounds like your search criteria are similar to ours (space for family stuff, range for long trips, not a swasticar or wankpanzer).

Are you looking new or secondhand? The MG 5 is relatively affordable secondhand, and one of the few family size EV's in an estate body style, although even in the 'long range' 61 kWh version it doesn't go as far as some of the more expensive competition. If you've got £25kish to spend secondhand then my notes (ha ha 'notes', of course it's a spreadsheet) say Hyundai Kona (2023 or later) or Ioniq 5, Kia Niro EV (2022 or later) or EV6, Skoda Enyaq, Toyota bz4x or VW ID.4 or ID.5 would be in the frame (all in their longer range versions if applicable). If you're buying or leasing new then there are zillions more to choose from but you will find they're almost all SUV-style.

https://ev-database.org/uk/ looks useful for checking 'real-world' range and stuff.

Depending on budget, Polestar 2?

TopBadger wrote: Mon Mar 31, 2025 8:32 am You might look at the Enyaq which is very practically sized.

I read that you can pick up used Hyundai Ioniq 5's for around £20k now with reasonable milage and still more than a few years left on the warranty. They're also quite big for space, not as practical as the Enyaq but I figure you can add a roof box when you need the extra.

We loved the Ioniq 5, but found that the boot was too small for our day to day use. Kona too really good, 2024 model would have done us for space but not our budget. Pre 2024 models are a smaller body so it lost out in the boot space fairly significantly by comparison. Ended up with a 2023 Enyaq 60kwh, though sharing the dislike of SUVs, and dislike for it's looks too. Stowage space bigger than we'd been aiming for so not likely to run short. Only thing we found that was about exactly what we wanted on all practicality metrics was Swasticar Y so nope nope nope.

For your requirements as written above, MG5 possibly ticks the most boxes, and is amongst the most affordable second hand as of when I was looking last summer.

If looking at Enyaq pre 2024 model, be certain you are getting the fast charging version, the slow charging version would be a real pain on longer trips but with the fast one we don't find the smaller battery size to be an encumberance.

Check out citroen ë-C4 X, which has a 510 litre boot and back seats fold forward like its shorter hatchback sister increasing cargo volume.
Don't believe range quoted, but its body style is both efficient and has style. 54kWh versions (available only with premium models MAX, Shine Plus and e-series) give incrementally more range than more ubiquitous 50kWh. So 54kWh battery (has approx 50kWh useable), multiply this by say 3kWH efficiency = 150mile range. It fast charges to 80%.
Comfortable ride, has sport setting if burst of speed needed. £25K gets pre-registered model.

I wonder whether US tariffs on Chinese EVs is/will push prices down in RoW

Gfamily wrote: Tue Apr 01, 2025 9:28 am I wonder whether US tariffs on Chinese EVs is/will push prices down in RoW

You'd think so - they seem to manufacture a lot of them and will need to sell them somewhere, the price of Chinese EV's already undercuts many others. Might not apply so much to the UK though given we're right hand drive, the glut is more likely to be in "left hookers".

TopBadger wrote: Tue Apr 01, 2025 12:43 pm

Gfamily wrote: Tue Apr 01, 2025 9:28 am I wonder whether US tariffs on Chinese EVs is/will push prices down in RoW

You'd think so - they seem to manufacture a lot of them and will need to sell them somewhere, the price of Chinese EV's already undercuts many others. Might not apply so much to the UK though given we're right hand drive, the glut is more likely to be in "left hookers".

With Japan, Australia and New Zealand in the local area China quite likes to make left hand drive cars already. It’s led to a situation where instead of being the last to get new cars, Aus and NZ are among the first.

Grumble wrote: Tue Apr 01, 2025 9:34 pm

TopBadger wrote: Tue Apr 01, 2025 12:43 pm

Gfamily wrote: Tue Apr 01, 2025 9:28 am I wonder whether US tariffs on Chinese EVs is/will push prices down in RoW

You'd think so - they seem to manufacture a lot of them and will need to sell them somewhere, the price of Chinese EV's already undercuts many others. Might not apply so much to the UK though given we're right hand drive, the glut is more likely to be in "left hookers".

With Japan, Australia and New Zealand in the local area China quite likes to make left hand drive cars already. It’s led to a situation where instead of being the last to get new cars, Aus and NZ are among the first.

Really? I don't know about NZ, but Aus has been quite slow in it's uptake of EVs. It's a large country with huge areas with very little infrastructure for charging stations. Also, Aus loves it's large-engined Utes and SUVs (and lax emissions standards!) and we've often been towards the back of the queue for the latest fuel-efficient ICEs and hybrids.

China might be trying to break into the market, but despite a strong Japanese market-share here already the smaller and more fuel-efficient Japanese cars have had trouble getting a foothold. The few Chinese vehicles I see are generally Great Wall Utes or people carriers.

Martin_B wrote: Wed Apr 02, 2025 12:34 am

Grumble wrote: Tue Apr 01, 2025 9:34 pm

TopBadger wrote: Tue Apr 01, 2025 12:43 pm

You'd think so - they seem to manufacture a lot of them and will need to sell them somewhere, the price of Chinese EV's already undercuts many others. Might not apply so much to the UK though given we're right hand drive, the glut is more likely to be in "left hookers".

With Japan, Australia and New Zealand in the local area China quite likes to make left hand drive cars already. It’s led to a situation where instead of being the last to get new cars, Aus and NZ are among the first.

Really? I don't know about NZ, but Aus has been quite slow in it's uptake of EVs. It's a large country with huge areas with very little infrastructure for charging stations. Also, Aus loves it's large-engined Utes and SUVs (and lax emissions standards!) and we've often been towards the back of the queue for the latest fuel-efficient ICEs and hybrids.

China might be trying to break into the market, but despite a strong Japanese market-share here already the smaller and more fuel-efficient Japanese cars have had trouble getting a foothold. The few Chinese vehicles I see are generally Great Wall Utes or people carriers.

I didn’t say anything about sales figures, but the BYD cars for example have been made available in Aus before the UK.

Martin_B wrote: Wed Apr 02, 2025 12:34 am

Grumble wrote: Tue Apr 01, 2025 9:34 pm

TopBadger wrote: Tue Apr 01, 2025 12:43 pm

You'd think so - they seem to manufacture a lot of them and will need to sell them somewhere, the price of Chinese EV's already undercuts many others. Might not apply so much to the UK though given we're right hand drive, the glut is more likely to be in "left hookers".

With Japan, Australia and New Zealand in the local area China quite likes to make left hand drive cars already. It’s led to a situation where instead of being the last to get new cars, Aus and NZ are among the first.

Really? I don't know about NZ, but Aus has been quite slow in it's uptake of EVs. It's a large country with huge areas with very little infrastructure for charging stations. Also, Aus loves it's large-engined Utes and SUVs (and lax emissions standards!) and we've often been towards the back of the queue for the latest fuel-efficient ICEs and hybrids.

China might be trying to break into the market, but despite a strong Japanese market-share here already the smaller and more fuel-efficient Japanese cars have had trouble getting a foothold. The few Chinese vehicles I see are generally Great Wall Utes or people carriers.

35 years ago, CNG and LPG were pretty common in NZ. Of course they probably reduced range anxiety as one could still fill up with petrol and indeed swap fuel whilst driving (I saw my cousin do that). However it suggests that there has been an appetite for vehicles other than conventional ICE ones.

Just got a nice bonus with the MG4... £299 in credit towards my Octopus account and another £299 credit towards the Electroverse... was totally unexpected.

Zappi charger was installed today and all going well we'll be picking up the car on Friday.

My excitement is somewhat dimmed by downloading the MG iSMART app (average of 2/5 star rating) but hopefully its serviceable enough. Never had an app with a car before so not sure what to expect.

El Pollo Diablo wrote: Mon Mar 31, 2025 8:16 am My wife and I are thinking about going electric. What would be a good car to get? Criteria:

• We're hoping to adopt in the next year or so, so the car will need to store the warehouse-worth of stuff that parents seem to need to cart everywhere these days. We'll be adopting a child around 2ish years of age.
• I also really f.cking hate SUVs. My wife would like an SUV, we perhaps could compromise on a mini-SUV, but I will feel filthy for several years. I know that every f.cking new car is an SUV these days. I cry.
• I occasionally drive long distances, up to Lancashire (190mi) or Cumbria (290mi), sometimes even Scotland (400+mi) or France (500+mi). I like driving long distances, but only do it every now and again. I do a fair bit of medium-distance motorway driving (100ish mi). A car that would work well with that would be great.
• It's nice to be able to overtake quickly when the need arises, as I can currently do, so having good performance is welcome, but if it's going to cost me an extra fifteen grand then I can relegate that priority.
• Elon Musk is a c.nt, I don't want a swasticar.

I realise applying these filters to most car lists will yield 0 results, so pick and choose as seems best. Apparently the Tesla model 3 is really good, so it's annoying that the head of Tesla is a Nazi.

I've got similar criteria, and recently opted to swap my car allowance for a company car. (Current car had reached the allowable age and I had to either buy a new-ish one or take a company car).

We've opted for a VW ID7. Not got it yet, but I got to sit in someone else's. It's spacious, not an SUV and has a reported range of 386 miles. The main complaint I'm seeing with it is an over-reliance on the touch screen. There aren't even buttons for the air vents.

El Pollo Diablo wrote: Mon Mar 31, 2025 8:16 am Apparently the Tesla model 3 is really good, so it's annoying that the head of Tesla is a Nazi.

The build quality of Teslas is generally held to be pretty bad.