Scrutable

Giving preferential treatment in jobs and whatnot to those who take the military option seems like a step in the direction of Starship Troopers to me.

dyqik wrote: Tue May 28, 2024 1:03 pm 18 year olds can already volunteer for the military. The numbers who actually want to do so are why the UK armed services are severely short of personnel.

A significant deterrent is the totally inadequate processing of recruitment by Crapita - as extensively documented by Private Eye.
It's taking months and months, and many people who express initial interest in signing up get alternative employment instead.

ETA should have looked at prior responses to your post. Oooops!

Double post

Gfamily wrote: Tue May 28, 2024 1:43 pm

dyqik wrote: Tue May 28, 2024 1:03 pm 18 year olds can already volunteer for the military. The numbers who actually want to do so are why the UK armed services are severely short of personnel.

A significant deterrent is the totally inadequate processing of recruitment by Crapita - as extensively documented by Private Eye.
It's taking months and months, and many people who express initial interest in signing up get alternative employment instead.

And who do you think would get the contract to run the new scheme?

dyqik wrote: Tue May 28, 2024 1:46 pm

Gfamily wrote: Tue May 28, 2024 1:43 pm

dyqik wrote: Tue May 28, 2024 1:03 pm 18 year olds can already volunteer for the military. The numbers who actually want to do so are why the UK armed services are severely short of personnel.

A significant deterrent is the totally inadequate processing of recruitment by Crapita - as extensively documented by Private Eye.
It's taking months and months, and many people who express initial interest in signing up get alternative employment instead.

And who do you think would get the contract to run the new scheme?

Hmm. Tricky.
They'd have to be willing to overcharge by about 5 milyon.
They'd have to be willing to donate 2 or 3 of those 5 milyon to a certain political party that favours blue things.
And they'd have to be able to keep a straight face when asked about it by our Kirsty on Newsnight.

Which doesn't really narrow it down at all does it? Sorry.

nezumi wrote: Tue May 28, 2024 1:28 pm From what I gather elsewhere, the problem is (and isn't it always) Capita f.cking up the contract as per usual.

Other incompetent contractors are available. Plenty of them. What is it that Fujitsu is much in the news for these days? Who were those G4S people who used to run prisoner transport, are they still at it? Etc.

dyqik wrote: Tue May 28, 2024 1:03 pm

Woodchopper wrote: Tue May 28, 2024 12:14 pm

jimbob wrote: Mon May 27, 2024 11:01 am
It looks like the current iteration is for "only" 30,000 conscripts (still leaving a massive accommodation and training bill) and the rest have mandatory unpaid work.

I love the right wing commentators who are saying that they can't see the problem with voluntary work and that their kids did volunteering. Missing the fact that it's not volunteering if it's mandatory.

Fair enough. If the 30 000 is a bit less then 10% of the cohort then national service might be a good idea. So long as it would be voluntary.

The UK armed forces are severely short of personnel and the need for them is likely to increase in the near future. Other similar countries use national service to need personnel shortages.

18 year olds can already volunteer for the military. The numbers who actually want to do so are why the UK armed services are severely short of personnel.

Yes of course. The reason other European countries have have national service is the difference between opting in and opting out. Elsewhere, there are far more volunteers when they have been selected and then have the opportunity to opt out, compared to people needing to opt in.* Similar effects can be found in many other things, ranging from organ donation through to pension plans.

* ETA and just to reiterate, in Scandinavia national service is in theory compulsory but in practice it is very easy to get out of it and they also take on volunteers.

jimbob wrote: Tue May 28, 2024 1:11 pm @woodchopper. I disagree that if they are only taking 5% of the cohort, it makes it a better idea.

That still leaves 95% who are expected to do the equivalent of 5 weeks unpaid work.

I didn't mention that, but compelling people to do community service is a stupid idea. If they want some kind of national community service make it voluntary as well.

dyqik wrote: Tue May 28, 2024 1:46 pm

Gfamily wrote: Tue May 28, 2024 1:43 pm

dyqik wrote: Tue May 28, 2024 1:03 pm 18 year olds can already volunteer for the military. The numbers who actually want to do so are why the UK armed services are severely short of personnel.

A significant deterrent is the totally inadequate processing of recruitment by Crapita - as extensively documented by Private Eye.
It's taking months and months, and many people who express initial interest in signing up get alternative employment instead.

And who do you think would get the contract to run the new scheme?

I understand the Landlord at Mike Hancock's local has a friend who is interested in doing it.

dyqik wrote: Tue May 28, 2024 1:46 pm

Gfamily wrote: Tue May 28, 2024 1:43 pm

dyqik wrote: Tue May 28, 2024 1:03 pm 18 year olds can already volunteer for the military. The numbers who actually want to do so are why the UK armed services are severely short of personnel.

A significant deterrent is the totally inadequate processing of recruitment by Crapita - as extensively documented by Private Eye.
It's taking months and months, and many people who express initial interest in signing up get alternative employment instead.

And who do you think would get the contract to run the new scheme?

Several on Facebook suggesting Mone Military Uniforms ltd

JQH wrote: Tue May 28, 2024 9:58 am

Tristan wrote: Mon May 27, 2024 10:14 pm And now they’re promising a quadruple pension lock! Ffs.

I'm not sure how this is meant to work. I qualify for the State pension next year which will take my income over the tax threshold. So I will be rightly paying tax on my State pension. The only people who will benefit from this proposal are those with no (or very small) occupational or private pension but they wouldn't pay tax anyway because their income is well below the threshold. I suppose you can promise what you like when you know you aren't going to win.

As far as I can see the only purpose of this proposal is to put Labour (and other parties) on the spot. If they say they will adopt it too, they will piss off young and middle-aged voters. If they say they won't, we can expect the right wing tabloids saying Starmer wants to starve/freeze your granny.

The idea is that if you are only on the state pension then when the pension rises to above the threshold for basic rate tax, then those pensioners will be exempt from paying income tax. This is a likely scenario if pensions keep increasing due to the triple lock whilst the lower tax threshold is frozen.

Tristan wrote: Tue May 28, 2024 4:56 pm

JQH wrote: Tue May 28, 2024 9:58 am

Tristan wrote: Mon May 27, 2024 10:14 pm And now they’re promising a quadruple pension lock! Ffs.

I'm not sure how this is meant to work. I qualify for the State pension next year which will take my income over the tax threshold. So I will be rightly paying tax on my State pension. The only people who will benefit from this proposal are those with no (or very small) occupational or private pension but they wouldn't pay tax anyway because their income is well below the threshold. I suppose you can promise what you like when you know you aren't going to win.

As far as I can see the only purpose of this proposal is to put Labour (and other parties) on the spot. If they say they will adopt it too, they will piss off young and middle-aged voters. If they say they won't, we can expect the right wing tabloids saying Starmer wants to starve/freeze your granny.

The idea is that if you are only on the state pension then when the pension rises to above the threshold for basic rate tax, then those pensioners will be exempt from paying income tax. This is a likely scenario if pensions keep increasing due to the triple lock whilst the lower tax threshold is frozen.

No, no, no. Don't be so naive. It's not this at all.

Do you really think they'd offer the bribe just to people on only the state pension?

Not offer it to rich Tory voting pensioners.?

It's simply a new personal allowance band for anyone over 66 (to become 67). Instead of £12,570 allowance it will be £13,000 and linked to the triple lock so it will go up every year. Unlike the band for everyone else, which will be frozen at £12,570 for a few years. A pensioner on £112,600 a year will get the higher allowance, same as a pensioner on £12,600.

There used to be difference tax bands for over 65s. Age differentiation is normal in many tax systems. The Tories abolished the different bands back in 2012, I think. Bringing back an extra tax allowance for the old is contrary to Jeremy Hunt's plan to reduce taxes on working people - i.e. cutting NI rates but not Income Tax rates - but he's vanished off the face of the earth and has been ignored.

Woodchopper wrote: Tue May 28, 2024 2:20 pm

dyqik wrote: Tue May 28, 2024 1:03 pm

Woodchopper wrote: Tue May 28, 2024 12:14 pm

Fair enough. If the 30 000 is a bit less then 10% of the cohort then national service might be a good idea. So long as it would be voluntary.

The UK armed forces are severely short of personnel and the need for them is likely to increase in the near future. Other similar countries use national service to need personnel shortages.

18 year olds can already volunteer for the military. The numbers who actually want to do so are why the UK armed services are severely short of personnel.

Yes of course. The reason other European countries have have national service is the difference between opting in and opting out. Elsewhere, there are far more volunteers when they have been selected and then have the opportunity to opt out, compared to people needing to opt in.* Similar effects can be found in many other things, ranging from organ donation through to pension plans.

* ETA and just to reiterate, in Scandinavia national service is in theory compulsory but in practice it is very easy to get out of it and they also take on volunteers.

My Swedish mate Claes served in the military. I asked if if he felt his time as a sergeant in the artillery had brought career benefits. He said

"WHAT????"

Since we don't have a land border with Russia it would be better to follow the sensible neighbours who've abandoned national service (Germany, Spain, Italy, etc) than the weirdos that have kept it (Denmark, Greece, France)

noggins wrote: Wed May 29, 2024 12:31 pm Since we don't have a land border with Russia it would be better to follow the sensible neighbours who've abandoned national service (Germany, Spain, Italy, etc) than the weirdos that have kept it (Denmark, Greece, France)

Greece keeps it because of Turkey more than Russia, I suspect.

And France probably keeps it because of us

Greece keeps it because of the coup.

France because their postimperial Great Power delusions are even stronger than ours.

dyqik wrote: Wed May 29, 2024 12:34 pm

noggins wrote: Wed May 29, 2024 12:31 pm Since we don't have a land border with Russia it would be better to follow the sensible neighbours who've abandoned national service (Germany, Spain, Italy, etc) than the weirdos that have kept it (Denmark, Greece, France)

Greece keeps it because of Turkey more than Russia, I suspect.

And France probably keeps it because of us

France reintroduced it in 2021

Grumble wrote: Wed May 29, 2024 12:58 pm

dyqik wrote: Wed May 29, 2024 12:34 pm

noggins wrote: Wed May 29, 2024 12:31 pm Since we don't have a land border with Russia it would be better to follow the sensible neighbours who've abandoned national service (Germany, Spain, Italy, etc) than the weirdos that have kept it (Denmark, Greece, France)

Greece keeps it because of Turkey more than Russia, I suspect.

And France probably keeps it because of us

France reintroduced it in 2021

And it's currently voluntary.

noggins wrote: Wed May 29, 2024 12:31 pm ...than the weirdos that have kept it (Denmark, Greece, France)

Compulsory national service in France ended in 1997. When it did, you could choose between a civic or a military option.

In 2021, an optional national military service was introduced France. The period of service is one month. So whilst France can now accurately be said to have military national service, for most practical purposes, it doesn't.

It would have been more telling to cite Switzerland, which continues to have compulsory military service. You do 10 months and remain in a national reserve subject to conscription for 10 years. You have to keep a rifle and ammunition at home. It is a related fact that whilst Switzerland has an average suicide rate by European standards, over three times more of those suicides than than the European average, about a third, are implemented by firearms.

Allo V Psycho wrote: Tue May 28, 2024 5:11 pm

Woodchopper wrote: Tue May 28, 2024 2:20 pm

dyqik wrote: Tue May 28, 2024 1:03 pm

18 year olds can already volunteer for the military. The numbers who actually want to do so are why the UK armed services are severely short of personnel.

Yes of course. The reason other European countries have have national service is the difference between opting in and opting out. Elsewhere, there are far more volunteers when they have been selected and then have the opportunity to opt out, compared to people needing to opt in.* Similar effects can be found in many other things, ranging from organ donation through to pension plans.

* ETA and just to reiterate, in Scandinavia national service is in theory compulsory but in practice it is very easy to get out of it and they also take on volunteers.

My Swedish mate Claes served in the military. I asked if if he felt his time as a sergeant in the artillery had brought career benefits. He said

"WHAT????"

Anecdata, but my brother in law did military service in Germany in the mid-noughties.

It seemed to pull him out of a funk and give him a sense of purpose. He now has a very high paying job in IT. I'm not sure if that's to do with the military service or the all-nighter LAN parties he used to organise as a teen. Probably the latter.

Grumble wrote: Wed May 29, 2024 12:58 pm

dyqik wrote: Wed May 29, 2024 12:34 pm

noggins wrote: Wed May 29, 2024 12:31 pm Since we don't have a land border with Russia it would be better to follow the sensible neighbours who've abandoned national service (Germany, Spain, Italy, etc) than the weirdos that have kept it (Denmark, Greece, France)

Greece keeps it because of Turkey more than Russia, I suspect.

And France probably keeps it because of us

France reintroduced it in 2021

Just after Brexit was hitting full insanity...

"And I wonder if they’ll bring back National Service and the birch
And I wonder but I doubt if they will ever bring back the Watney Cup"

lpm wrote: Tue May 28, 2024 5:08 pm Bringing back an extra tax allowance for the old is contrary to Jeremy Hunt's plan to reduce taxes on working people - i.e. cutting NI rates but not Income Tax rates - but he's vanished off the face of the earth and has been ignored.

My God! Hunt’s alive!!!

He’s on the Today programme as I type.

You will not see this; this we will hide.
https://x.com/thisisalexjames/status/17 ... 5226833249