Scrutable

Posted: **Sun Oct 04, 2020 4:35 pm**

dyqik wrote: Sun Oct 04, 2020 4:30 pm By the way, Trump's doctor isn't a real doctor, but a Doctor of Osteopathy.

I wonder whether it was an osteopath or a real doctor that decided to give him dexamethasone? Everything I read when it was approved suggested it was a severe cases only drug that could actually hinder a patient with a milder case.

Posted: **Sun Oct 04, 2020 4:38 pm**

Is he dead yet?

Posted: **Sun Oct 04, 2020 4:50 pm**

It's the 2nd. There's nothing else to suggest he's ill enough to need it.

They are just giving him anything he demands, plus probably assess that it's unlikely to harm.

There's also the question of adderall withdrawal. Like all drug addicts, Trump strongly resisted going into hospital, which is where dirty secrets get revealed and cold turkey is a threat. Not sure what medication would deal with withdrawal, but the bigger the cocktail of drugs the easier it is to slip another one in.

Posted: **Sun Oct 04, 2020 4:59 pm**

lpm wrote: Sun Oct 04, 2020 4:50 pm It's the 2nd. There's nothing else to suggest he's ill enough to need it.

They are just giving him anything he demands, plus probably assess that it's unlikely to harm.

There's also the question of adderall withdrawal. Like all drug addicts, Trump strongly resisted going into hospital, which is where dirty secrets get revealed and cold turkey is a threat. Not sure what medication would deal with withdrawal, but the bigger the cocktail of drugs the easier it is to slip another one in.

I just saw a well respected White House beat reported say "The lying from the White House on Friday and from Conley yesterday about the president's condition is staggering". Not that it is unprecedented for the White House to lie about illnessess, I mean, consider FDR, but there's a whole bunch of incompetent lying, leaks and half truths going about right now.

Effectively, we can't definitively say what is going on right now, and we'll find out some of it at least as time passes. The one thing one can say is if they are being honest to within even a couple of days about when this started, it is unlikely this will be over soon.

Posted: **Sun Oct 04, 2020 5:00 pm**

I don’t know anything about Adderall so just looked it up.

https://www.drugs.com/sfx/adderall-side-effects.html

Psychiatric

Very common (10% or more): Insomnia (up to 27%), nervousness (up to 13%)

Common (1% to 10%): Emotional lability, agitation, anxiety

Frequency not reported: Psychotic episodes, irritability, euphoria, dysphoria, restlessness, depression, aggression, anger, logorrhea, dermatillomania[Ref]

Nervous system

Very common (10% or more): Headache (up to 26%)

Common (1% to 10%): Somnolence, dizziness, twitching, speech disorder (e.g., stuttering, excessive speech)

Frequency not reported: Overstimulation, paresthesia/formication, dyskinesia, tremor, exacerbation of motor/phonic tics and Tourette's syndrome[Ref]

Posted: **Sun Oct 04, 2020 5:01 pm**

Polticially, I don't get why they'd say he could return to the White House Medical Centre in a day or two.

If he does, great, that's a good news cycle for him. But you get that when it actually happens, not when you dangle the possibility.

If he doesn't, you instantly get questions on why the delay. It sends a signal and makes people say "so he's worse than you thought yesterday".

If it drags out for days, you are constantly under pressure for the premature optimism.

Worst of all would be going back to the WH, then having to be brought back into hospital.

How do any of the political upsides of dangling this good news now offset the big downside risks?

Posted: **Sun Oct 04, 2020 5:08 pm**

They've just released a chart of his vital stat, the TTPD metric.

Spoiler:

Posted: **Sun Oct 04, 2020 5:25 pm**

lpm wrote: Sun Oct 04, 2020 5:08 pm They've just released a chart of his vital stat, the TTPD metric.

Spoiler:

Either he's unconscious or they've taken his phone away.

Posted: **Sun Oct 04, 2020 5:29 pm**

AMS wrote: Sun Oct 04, 2020 5:25 pm
lpm wrote: Sun Oct 04, 2020 5:08 pm They've just released a chart of his vital stat, the TTPD metric.

Spoiler:

Either he's unconscious or they've taken his phone away.

Well dexamethasone gives mood swings, not that anyone would likely be able to tell the difference

Posted: **Sun Oct 04, 2020 5:29 pm**

TimW wrote: Sun Oct 04, 2020 4:38 pmIs he dead yet?

Nope - in "good spirits". Dead = "resting comfortably"

Posted: **Sun Oct 04, 2020 5:30 pm**

lpm wrote: Sun Oct 04, 2020 5:01 pm Polticially, I don't get why they'd say he could return to the White House Medical Centre in a day or two.

If he does, great, that's a good news cycle for him. But you get that when it actually happens, not when you dangle the possibility.

If he doesn't, you instantly get questions on why the delay. It sends a signal and makes people say "so he's worse than you thought yesterday".

If it drags out for days, you are constantly under pressure for the premature optimism.

Worst of all would be going back to the WH, then having to be brought back into hospital.

How do any of the political upsides of dangling this good news now offset the big downside risks?

To channel Seth Abramson's point on Twitter just now: People are voting today in states whose early voting and mail voting has already started. They have to be reassured that they are voting for someone who'll be able to take up the post.

Posted: **Sun Oct 04, 2020 5:44 pm**

Grumble wrote: Sun Oct 04, 2020 5:00 pm I don’t know anything about Adderall so just looked it up.

https://www.drugs.com/sfx/adderall-side-effects.html

Psychiatric

Very common (10% or more): Insomnia (up to 27%), nervousness (up to 13%)

Common (1% to 10%): Emotional lability, agitation, anxiety

Frequency not reported: Psychotic episodes, irritability, euphoria, dysphoria, restlessness, depression, aggression, anger, logorrhea, dermatillomania[Ref]

Nervous system

Very common (10% or more): Headache (up to 26%)

Common (1% to 10%): Somnolence, dizziness, twitching, speech disorder (e.g., stuttering, excessive speech)

Frequency not reported: Overstimulation, paresthesia/formication, dyskinesia, tremor, exacerbation of motor/phonic tics and Tourette's syndrome[Ref]

Rarely used for ADHD treatment over here.

Is there any acksherall, real evidence that he is taking it? Or anything about a ADHD/ADD diagnosis? Or is this more piss poor Merkinanian prescribing of psychiatric meds?

Posted: **Sun Oct 04, 2020 5:48 pm**

murmur wrote: Sun Oct 04, 2020 5:44 pm
Grumble wrote: Sun Oct 04, 2020 5:00 pm I don’t know anything about Adderall so just looked it up.

https://www.drugs.com/sfx/adderall-side-effects.html

Psychiatric

Very common (10% or more): Insomnia (up to 27%), nervousness (up to 13%)

Common (1% to 10%): Emotional lability, agitation, anxiety

Frequency not reported: Psychotic episodes, irritability, euphoria, dysphoria, restlessness, depression, aggression, anger, logorrhea, dermatillomania[Ref]

Nervous system

Very common (10% or more): Headache (up to 26%)

Common (1% to 10%): Somnolence, dizziness, twitching, speech disorder (e.g., stuttering, excessive speech)

Frequency not reported: Overstimulation, paresthesia/formication, dyskinesia, tremor, exacerbation of motor/phonic tics and Tourette's syndrome[Ref]

Rarely used for ADHD treatment over here.

Is there any acksherall, real evidence that he is taking it? Or anything about a ADHD/ADD diagnosis? Or is this more piss poor Merkinanian prescribing of psychiatric meds?

There was some eye witness testimony from someone who worked on the apprentice, which is hardly conclusive. There may be some better evidence?

Posted: **Sun Oct 04, 2020 5:48 pm**

I would give good money - bad money too if that helped - to any reporter willing to ask Trump Campaign, White House or Walter Reed spokespersons "The trials that lead to the approval of dexamethasone showed it only helps patients who need oxygen or a ventilator, and it is strongly recommended by the WHO that it should not be given to patients who do not have severe or critical COVID-19. Who decided this drug was appropriate for the president, and what aspect of his condition lead to that decision?"

Posted: **Sun Oct 04, 2020 6:27 pm**

It appears they were a bit economical with the truth - he's had two "oxygen dips", but Conley didn't want to say before as he says: "I didn’t want to give any information that might steer the course of illness in another direction"

...erm, you mean you didn't want everyone else guessing how bad it might be and panicking.

Maybe he's recovering, maybe they're just playing for time. Either way, it's interesting to see how such a high profile illness plays out in a 24h news world with rapid communication and ability for info to be distributed.

Posted: **Sun Oct 04, 2020 6:56 pm**

The man is a nasty bully with the power to fire his doctors. I suspect he believes more stuff will automatically mean he gets better quicker, so demands it. I'm not convinced it indicates he's particularly ill.

According to doctors he's currently on

Dexamethasone
Regeneron monoclonal antibodies
Remdesivir
Famotidine (a heartburn drug, possibly useful against Covid)
Zinc
Vitamin D
Melatonin
Aspirin

He's previously taken cholesterol and blood pressure stuff, unclear if still carrying on or suspending them for a while.

Posted: **Sun Oct 04, 2020 6:58 pm**

FlammableFlower wrote: Sun Oct 04, 2020 6:27 pm It appears they were a bit economical with the truth - he's had two "oxygen dips", but Conley didn't want to say before as he says: "I didn’t want to give any information that might steer the course of illness in another direction"

...erm, you mean you didn't want everyone else guessing how bad it might be and panicking.

Maybe he's recovering, maybe they're just playing for time. Either way, it's interesting to see how such a high profile illness plays out in a 24h news world with rapid communication and ability for info to be distributed.

Obviously I am neither a chemist nor a medic, but given Trump's previous thoughts on treatment - wouldn't HOOH be an oxygen drip and consistent with both?

Posted: **Sun Oct 04, 2020 7:03 pm**

jimbob wrote: Sun Oct 04, 2020 6:58 pm
FlammableFlower wrote: Sun Oct 04, 2020 6:27 pm It appears they were a bit economical with the truth - he's had two "oxygen dips", but Conley didn't want to say before as he says: "I didn’t want to give any information that might steer the course of illness in another direction"

...erm, you mean you didn't want everyone else guessing how bad it might be and panicking.

Maybe he's recovering, maybe they're just playing for time. Either way, it's interesting to see how such a high profile illness plays out in a 24h news world with rapid communication and ability for info to be distributed.
Obviously I am neither a chemist nor a medic, but given Trump's previous thoughts on treatment - wouldn't HOOH be an oxygen drip and consistent with both?

Seems unlikely. Would the hospital even have such a thing?

Posted: **Sun Oct 04, 2020 7:43 pm**

EACLucifer wrote: Sun Oct 04, 2020 4:35 pm
dyqik wrote: Sun Oct 04, 2020 4:30 pm By the way, Trump's doctor isn't a real doctor, but a Doctor of Osteopathy.
I wonder whether it was an osteopath or a real doctor that decided to give him dexamethasone? Everything I read when it was approved suggested it was a severe cases only drug that could actually hinder a patient with a milder case.

Is dexamethasone the one that reduced death rates from 12% to 9%?

Posted: **Sun Oct 04, 2020 7:49 pm**

Grumble wrote: Sun Oct 04, 2020 7:43 pm
EACLucifer wrote: Sun Oct 04, 2020 4:35 pm
dyqik wrote: Sun Oct 04, 2020 4:30 pm By the way, Trump's doctor isn't a real doctor, but a Doctor of Osteopathy.
I wonder whether it was an osteopath or a real doctor that decided to give him dexamethasone? Everything I read when it was approved suggested it was a severe cases only drug that could actually hinder a patient with a milder case.
Is dexamethasone the one that reduced death rates from 12% to 9%?

Not sure, off the top of my head. It improved outcomes re: mortality by 20% and 35% for oxygen and vent patients respectively compared to standard care only in the Recovery trial.

Posted: **Sun Oct 04, 2020 7:53 pm**

bob sterman wrote: Sun Oct 04, 2020 5:29 pm
TimW wrote: Sun Oct 04, 2020 4:38 pmIs he dead yet?
Nope - in "good spirits". Dead = "resting comfortably"

"May be discharged on Monday"
So. Fading fast then.
(Not long now, dear; not long now.)

Posted: **Sun Oct 04, 2020 7:57 pm**

Quick challenge. Can anybody find me footage of colleagues being more careful to distance from Trump than on this pic from monday (28/09/2020)?

Or this video from the same event? Might want to keep the sound off

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJcu-4X ... e=emb_logo

The only person I see going anywhere near Trump is a masked staffer who holds the door for him. Pence and various other speakers all carefully go to the same many-yards-from-Trump spot.

I'm getting curious, given the way this admin lies about everything - including not ever discussing a previous emergency trip to Walter Reed - and the general precedent re: president's health is for the White House to be less than forthcoming with info.

Posted: **Sun Oct 04, 2020 8:16 pm**

All the doctors on the front steps of Walter Reed in their white coats made me think of...

Posted: **Sun Oct 04, 2020 9:36 pm**

You'll be glad to know that Trump* has just been driven past his supporters in the back of a car, thus proving* that he's fine and completely willing to expose his driver and other people in a closed vehicle with him for a lame stunt.

* Trump shaped person wearing a mask.

Posted: **Sun Oct 04, 2020 9:38 pm**

Can we put all discussion on this subject in one thread? It's currently in three, two in Weighty, and one here.

I suggest Donald Trump's Health in Weighty as probably most appropriate, as it's adjacent to the US Election thread.

Scrutable

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