Scrutable

Sciolus wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 2:01 pm It would be helpful if people posting putative statements of fact could include links/references, so we can at least make a guess as to their reliability.

EACLucifer wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 2:00 pm

headshot wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 1:38 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 1:12 pm

I'm pretty sure there are going to be reports of basically everything over the next few days. We should probably test anything that's not been verified by journalists with a pinch of salt.

Yeah, good idea. It's why I'm staying off Twitter, this was reported on a main news site...though I now can't find it, so perhaps it was removed.

There are photos that appear to pass muster of remains of rocket engines in civilian areas that are the sort used in cluster-bomb projectiles, which is a warcrime. There are reports from the Donbass of forced conscription of an occupied population, which is a warcrime. There's reports that some of those conscripted are minors, which is a warcrime. Deliberate targetting of hospitals, just like in Syria. That's a warcrime, too.

Whether or not every single report is true or not, they've definitely committed some actual warcrimes. Just like they did in Syria.

EACLucifer wrote: Thu Feb 24, 2022 3:42 pm For those wondering what it's like on the receiving end of this evil, watch here. Watch with the sound on. Thankfully, the woman and child in this video were not physically harmed, but this is often not the case.

As of yesterday, Russia's apologists were planning a rally this week not against Putin and his cowardly thugs, but against NATO. Not one MP that signed that f.cking letter should be welcome in Labour. Those who can should confront them, demonstrate against them.

The same is true of the right, of course. Farage comes to mind as an excuser and enabler, as do a number of Trumpist Americans.

bjn wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 8:38 am

jimbob wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 8:10 am

lpm wrote: Thu Feb 24, 2022 11:28 pm And what's the amphibious fleet doing wandering about? Why aren't they going ashore at Odessa or going home? Aren't they vulnerable out there?

Some of this looks like grandstanding or for propaganda purposes. Maybe not this, but paratroopers? Such airdrops do look impressive and bring back memories of 1930s propaganda reels but even by 1944, they were only useful in very limited roles due to their lack of mobility and heavy weapons when on the ground. There's a reason why airborne brigades in the West (and USSR) used helicopters.

Airdrops work if you can get ground troops to follow up very quickly. D-Day was a successful use of paratroopers. Crete was a nearly pure airborne operation and pretty much the only one that succeeded. However the German paratroopers were so badly mauled by the very tepid opposition that they never tried it again. Market Garden, that didn’t go so well.

EACLucifer wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 2:07 pm f.ck the Italian government.

Italian prime minister Mario Draghi successfully secured a carve out for Italian luxury goods from the EU's package of economic sanctions against Nato, EU dip tells me. 'Apparently selling Gucci loafers to oligarchs is more of a priority than hitting back at Putin,' source adds.

ETA: The mistake in the quoted tweet is from the Telegraph's correspondent, not me, but as the rest of the information corresponds with what others sources have said was likely/happening, it's safe to say it's just a simple mistake when typing in a hurry.

Stranger Mouse wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 2:09 pm

EACLucifer wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 2:00 pm

headshot wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 1:38 pm

Yeah, good idea. It's why I'm staying off Twitter, this was reported on a main news site...though I now can't find it, so perhaps it was removed.

There are photos that appear to pass muster of remains of rocket engines in civilian areas that are the sort used in cluster-bomb projectiles, which is a warcrime. There are reports from the Donbass of forced conscription of an occupied population, which is a warcrime. There's reports that some of those conscripted are minors, which is a warcrime. Deliberate targetting of hospitals, just like in Syria. That's a warcrime, too.

Whether or not every single report is true or not, they've definitely committed some actual warcrimes. Just like they did in Syria.

Civilian vehicle forced off the road https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/miracle-resc ... iver-kiev/

EACLucifer wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 1:23 pm

tom p wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 1:18 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 1:12 pm

I'm pretty sure there are going to be reports of basically everything over the next few days. We should probably test anything that's not been verified by journalists with a pinch of salt.

Indeed.
and can I also make a humble plea for people to stop banging on about what the couple of dozen people in stop the war are saying.
Who gives a f.ck? These are not important people & their views are irrelevant (in case it had escaped anyone's attention, Jeremy Corbyn is no longer leader of the labour party and hasn't been for a couple of years). Coming into this thread and being shouty about them doesn't add to the sum total of human knowledge or happiness. It's just pointless venting. If wanna do that, please start a 'what sh.t are StW saying about Ukraine now' thread, or use the rants one.

Says the whaboutist moron coming onto the thread to bang on about Iraq.

There's lots we can't do here. Permanently excluding the f.ckers who sucked up to Putin and his RT propaganda channel from left-wing movements is something we can do.

headshot wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 1:38 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 1:12 pm

headshot wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 1:07 pm There are reports coming out of Russian troops using Ukrainian vehicles and changing uniforms to enter Kyiv.

If true, that's a straight up war crime.

I'm pretty sure there are going to be reports of basically everything over the next few days. We should probably test anything that's not been verified by journalists with a pinch of salt.

Yeah, good idea. It's why I'm staying off Twitter, this was reported on a main news site...though I now can't find it, so perhaps it was removed.

Stranger Mouse wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 2:31 pm

Stranger Mouse wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 2:09 pm Civilian vehicle forced off the road https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/miracle-resc ... iver-kiev/

bl..dy Hell - this footage shows just how bad it was https://twitter.com/golub/status/149721 ... 07332?s=21

purplehaze wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 3:39 pm Zelenskiy has called citizens to take up arms.


https://www.theguardian.com/world/video ... aine-video

This could possibly rule out civilian deaths and therefore war crimes.

He has also called up reservists for a year - male 16 - 65.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/uk ... 022-02-23/

For a centrist politician, I find these decrees pretty extreme.

purplehaze wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 3:39 pm This is an interesting piece. Ukraine: Conscript shoots dead five at aerospace factory
Published 27 January 2022

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60152005

27 Jan 2022 — A National Guard conscript in Ukraine has shot dead five people and injured another five in the eastern city of Dnipro

purplehaze wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 3:39 pm Zelenskiy has called citizens to take up arms.


https://www.theguardian.com/world/video ... aine-video

This could possibly rule out civilian deaths and therefore war crimes.

He has also called up reservists for a year - male 16 - 65.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/uk ... 022-02-23/

For a centrist politician, I find these decrees pretty extreme.

WFJ wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 4:03 pm

purplehaze wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 3:39 pm Zelenskiy has called citizens to take up arms.


https://www.theguardian.com/world/video ... aine-video

This could possibly rule out civilian deaths and therefore war crimes.

Are you suggesting they should not fight back so they can defend themselves by appealing to the referee for Russia's disqualification and win by default? Whether anything Russia does is a war crime or not is meaningless when there is no chance of any sanction.

He has also called up reservists for a year - male 16 - 65.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/uk ... 022-02-23/

For a centrist politician, I find these decrees pretty extreme.

This was three days ago. I think Ukraine is going further now, but what is extreme about calling up reservists when faced with an impending invasion?

purplehaze wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 4:21 pm

WFJ wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 4:03 pm

purplehaze wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 3:39 pm Zelenskiy has called citizens to take up arms.


https://www.theguardian.com/world/video ... aine-video

This could possibly rule out civilian deaths and therefore war crimes.

Are you suggesting they should not fight back so they can defend themselves by appealing to the referee for Russia's disqualification and win by default? Whether anything Russia does is a war crime or not is meaningless when there is no chance of any sanction.

He has also called up reservists for a year - male 16 - 65.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/uk ... 022-02-23/

For a centrist politician, I find these decrees pretty extreme.

This was three days ago. I think Ukraine is going further now, but what is extreme about calling up reservists when faced with an impending invasion?

I'm suggesting nothing. I would point out that we wouldn't be able to do this in the UK. In fact, protesting in Northern Ireland lead to shoot to kill policies, simply for protesting - bl..dy Sunday. And let's not forget it's illegal to use molotov cocktails as well, but these weapons are being urged as a defence in Ukraine - they don't work.

purplehaze wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 4:21 pm I would point out that we wouldn't be able to do this in the UK.

EACLucifer wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 4:16 pm Britain is apparently not processing visa applications from Ukraine

f.ck this government and their continuing murderous xenophobia.

EACLucifer wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 4:53 pm Reports that Russia's threatening military consequences if Finland and Sweden join NATO - linking to tweet which references article, presuming tweet is accurate as cannot read Russian, but if you can, do check it by all means.

Given how much of their forces Russia have attacking or poised to attack Ukraine, now is exactly the time for Finland and Sweden to join NATO and ward off Putin's despotic revanchism.

Moscow, 25 Feb - RIA Novosti. The possible adoption of Sweden and Finland in NATO will require the response steps of Russia, said the official representative of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the Russian Federation Maria Zakharov.
"All OSCE participating countries in their national capacity, including Finland and Sweden, confirmed the principle according to which the security of some states should not be based on the security of other countries. It is obvious that Finland's accession and Sweden to NATO, which is primarily As you understand perfectly, the military unit would have a serious military-political consequence that would require the response steps of our country, "said Zakharov at a briefing.
NATO Secretary General of NATO Jens Stoltenberg reported that he invited Finland and Sweden, which are not members of the organization, to participate in the virtual emergency summit of the Alliance on Friday in the situation around Ukraine.
The Prime Minister of Finland Sanna Marin said at a parliament meeting that the country is ready to apply for NATO accession in the event that its national security arises.

On 9 December 2013 Russian President Vladimir Putin signed the liquidation of RIA Novosti "On some measures to improve the effectiveness of the state mass media"[9] and merging it with the international radio service Voice of Russia to create Rossiya Segodnya.[10]

EACLucifer wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 2:07 pm f.ck the Italian government.

Italian prime minister Mario Draghi successfully secured a carve out for Italian luxury goods from the EU's package of economic sanctions against Nato, EU dip tells me. 'Apparently selling Gucci loafers to oligarchs is more of a priority than hitting back at Putin,' source adds.

ETA: The mistake in the quoted tweet is from the Telegraph's correspondent, not me, but as the rest of the information corresponds with what others sources have said was likely/happening, it's safe to say it's just a simple mistake when typing in a hurry.