Scrutable

shpalman wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 8:55 pm Spanish bishop quit after he fell in love with a woman who writes Satanic-tinged erotic fiction

Well, as a member of the Catholic clergy he quit after falling in love. The Satanic-tinged erotic fiction just makes a better headline.

I believe that there may be some Catholic clergy who are married, as when the Anglican church voted to allow female clergy the Catholic church allowed married Anglican ministers who objected to convert to Catholicism; but I'm not sure if any Anglicans actually took up the offer.

I know one who did.

Martin_B wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 11:58 pm

shpalman wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 8:55 pm Spanish bishop quit after he fell in love with a woman who writes Satanic-tinged erotic fiction

Well, as a member of the Catholic clergy he quit after falling in love. The Satanic-tinged erotic fiction just makes a better headline.

I believe that there may be some Catholic clergy who are married, as when the Anglican church voted to allow female clergy the Catholic church allowed married Anglican ministers who objected to convert to Catholicism; but I'm not sure if any Anglicans actually took up the offer.

There was one the other day - clicky

shpalman wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 8:55 pm Spanish bishop quit after he fell in love with a woman who writes Satanic-tinged erotic fiction

And this story will conclude with the novelist deciding to stop writing and become a nun

insignificant wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 12:23 pm

shpalman wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 8:55 pm Spanish bishop quit after he fell in love with a woman who writes Satanic-tinged erotic fiction

And this story will conclude with the novelist deciding to stop writing and become a nun

Or running for President/Prime Minister or whatever they have in Spain.

As we gear up to celebrate the contradictory made-up origin stories of someone who may or may not have existed at all or been a composite of various people according to one or two oral histories which weren't written down until half a century afterwards, the pope (who regularly pretends he's talking to an imaginary sky being) has been telling young people in Greece that chatting with their friends online "isn't real" and not as good as meeting in person.

OTOH he is right - for once

I've tried explain to younger members of the Dolby clan that online-only "friends" aren't friends. They're not gonna feed your cat if you're in hospital or lend you a few quid if you're struggling.

Lew Dolby wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 1:21 pm OTOH he is right - for once

I've tried explain to younger members of the Dolby clan that online-only "friends" aren't friends. They're not gonna feed your cat if you're in hospital or lend you a few quid if you're struggling.

I disagree. Some people I've met online have become very good friends. They may not be able to look after my dog but most of my irl friends don't live close enough for that either. Several online friends have offered to lend me a few quid when I was struggling. And I got my PhD as a result of an online friend. I've managed to meet some online friends but mostly only after years of online-only communication. Given that I keep in touch with most of my irl friends through online communication I don't really see the difference any more.

Gfamily wrote: Sun Apr 04, 2021 10:20 pm I (don't) look forward to a future where there aren't communities that look out for the weak and powerless in the way that the religious ones did.

The people who volunteer for this kinda thing will still be available, unless you're saying the only reason people volunteer is to selfishly protect their souls, which I doubt heavily.

El Pollo Diablo wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:33 am To be honest, I reckon most people who grew up with church and then stopped going did so because at some point they just couldn't be arsed any more, felt like they didn't get a lot out of it, and realised a Sunday spent at home is nicer than a Sunday spent singing with other people. It's where I got to. I work f.cking hard, and want my time to myself at the weekend. It wasn't anything to do with historic oppression or the church being frequently wrong about social issues (which it has been, and often is) or anything like that. Just plain old simple apathy. I do miss the community aspects of it, I don't miss the getting roped into stuff aspects of it.

I may be an outlier but I never believed in a god in any meaningful way and mostly did it for familial praise. I stopped going after confirmation as that was an acceptable jumping off point.
The whole thing was v gentle Catholicism and I left before learning (through experience) that British society hated queers.

plebian wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 1:06 pm

Gfamily wrote: Sun Apr 04, 2021 10:20 pm I (don't) look forward to a future where there aren't communities that look out for the weak and powerless in the way that the religious ones did.

The people who volunteer for this kinda thing will still be available, unless you're saying the only reason people volunteer is to selfishly protect their souls, which I doubt heavily.

The people might be there, but whether there'll be the communities that will bring them together is another matter.

plebian wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 2:40 pm

El Pollo Diablo wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:33 am To be honest, I reckon most people who grew up with church and then stopped going did so because at some point they just couldn't be arsed any more, felt like they didn't get a lot out of it, and realised a Sunday spent at home is nicer than a Sunday spent singing with other people. It's where I got to. I work f.cking hard, and want my time to myself at the weekend. It wasn't anything to do with historic oppression or the church being frequently wrong about social issues (which it has been, and often is) or anything like that. Just plain old simple apathy. I do miss the community aspects of it, I don't miss the getting roped into stuff aspects of it.

I may be an outlier but I never believed in a god in any meaningful way and mostly did it for familial praise. I stopped going after confirmation as that was an acceptable jumping off point.
The whole thing was v gentle Catholicism and I left before learning (through experience) that British society hated queers.

I'm not sure you are actually an outlier. I have an ex who is now a Vicar. He has never, ever truly believed (I know this because we were together at that point in teenagerdom when you're just not smart enough to lie to your girlfriend ). His reasons for his choice were 1: Familial praise and 2: free house/easy job.

Gfamily wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 2:56 pm

plebian wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 1:06 pm

Gfamily wrote: Sun Apr 04, 2021 10:20 pm I (don't) look forward to a future where there aren't communities that look out for the weak and powerless in the way that the religious ones did.

The people who volunteer for this kinda thing will still be available, unless you're saying the only reason people volunteer is to selfishly protect their souls, which I doubt heavily.

The people might be there, but whether there'll be the communities that will bring them together is another matter.

What do you have in mind here? I mean, there are lots of non-religious community hubs where people are brought together and you can volunteer to look out for the weak and powerless there if you like.

But that seems so obvious it feels like I must be missing something - possibly something equally obvious, knowing me.

jdc wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 6:14 pm What do you have in mind here? I mean, there are lots of non-religious community hubs where people are brought together and you can volunteer to look out for the weak and powerless there if you like.

But that seems so obvious it feels like I must be missing something - possibly something equally obvious, knowing me.

No, fair enough, I know there are places where people who want to volunteer can go, but I think what places of religion offer is a place where people who aren't initially interested in 'doing volunteering' go, initially for a religious reason - but they then get into volunteering because that's also going on and they get to join in.

So, yes, I can see that lots of sports clubs etc. work in a similar way, but not everyone's going to be into sports. So, I'm not saying it's the only way the people get into volunteering, but it's a fairly widespread way that people do get into it.

In the town I grew up in, the food bank, night shelter and day centre were all run by churches. My mum works in sheltered housing for old folks, and churches run the lunch clubs that provide a lot of their social contact. Etc, etc. That said, I don't know what proportion of their volunteers are actually religious, but sometimes just having a large institution with personnel and premises etc. is super helpful for coordinating willing volunteers.

OTOH, things like the covid mutual aid groups were secular and quite impressively quick and thorough to launch. But they didn't need any physical space.

If religious communities somehow suddenly disappeared I reckon there'd be a big gap to fill, and at least in the UK I'm not sure there's much in the way of an off-the-shelf replacement waiting in the wings. The closest kind of "community hub" I can think of is pubs (and the few remaining social clubs, "working men's clubs" etc.), but as a lot of them have commercial bottom lines (and are mostly owned by soulless breweries) that seems implausible, especially as they're already dropping like flies.

In my town, the food banks, furniture assistance, age assistance groups, Community Chest, Boy's and Girl's Club etc. are all run by non-religious local groups, including the local library and the town supported Council on Aging. With support from the Lodge of Elks, Knights of Columbus, Shriners etc. which are one step removed from the churches.

Your town in the UK or MA? But yeah, I guess there'll be plenty of variation.

I just remembered there's also a secular organisation that does housing and furniture for the homeless.

Round here in PT, most (non-state) social assistance also seems to be from churches directly or religious organisations like Caritas and the Red Cross, but there are also some community groups doing things.

This is going to get pointlessly anecdotey if someone (else) doesn't dig up some data, innit.

Bird on a Fire wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 6:48 pm Your town in the UK or MA? But yeah, I guess there'll be plenty of variation.

I just remembered there's also a secular organisation that does housing and furniture for the homeless.

Round here in PT, most (non-state) social assistance also seems to be from churches directly or religious organisations like Caritas and the Red Cross, but there are also some community groups doing things.

This is going to get pointlessly anecdotey if someone (else) doesn't dig up some data, innit.

MA. I say this more as an existence proof that such set ups are perfectly possible in places with a fairly tight cultural connection to England. Obviously the lack of established church for the past 245 years makes some difference to the now though.

My town also has long running Finnish and Russian Orthodox ties.

Fair dos. I guess there probably are a bunch of obscure community organisations I haven't heard of who could take on more prominent roles - masonic lodges and rotary clubs etc.

Gfamily wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 6:32 pm

jdc wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 6:14 pm What do you have in mind here? I mean, there are lots of non-religious community hubs where people are brought together and you can volunteer to look out for the weak and powerless there if you like.

But that seems so obvious it feels like I must be missing something - possibly something equally obvious, knowing me.

No, fair enough, I know there are places where people who want to volunteer can go, but I think what places of religion offer is a place where people who aren't initially interested in 'doing volunteering' go, initially for a religious reason - but they then get into volunteering because that's also going on and they get to join in.

So, yes, I can see that lots of sports clubs etc. work in a similar way, but not everyone's going to be into sports. So, I'm not saying it's the only way the people get into volunteering, but it's a fairly widespread way that people do get into it.

We've picked up a fair few volunteers from people coming to activity A at the centre, seeing what we do, and fancying helping out at activity B so there's definitely quite a bit of what you describe happening in community centres. It helps that we have very varied activities but I reckon that's true of every centre I have knowledge of (I've worked at one, volunteered at two, visited others, and seen timetables for many).

I reckon we've had more coincidentals coming to volunteer than we've had people from things like do-it. The volunteer fairs are also a good source of vols.

Bird on a Fire wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 7:02 pm Fair dos. I guess there probably are a bunch of obscure community organisations I haven't heard of who could take on more prominent roles - masonic lodges and rotary clubs etc.

I'd forgotten about them. We have masonic lodges and rotary clubs too but they're a lot more obscure than the community groups and the hubs I did remember to mention.

My guess would be that the charitable/community stuff wouldn't disappear without religion, but if there is lots of religion about that stuff is more likely to have its roots in it (which is fine, with a few caveats like the help they give doesn't come with strings attached). The idea that there wouldn't be charity or community in the absence of God telling you is something I see the religious say about non-believers very often to point out how immoral we are, it's obvious toot.


(Round my way people are more religious than the UK or the NE USA, mostly Baptist or Methodist. We have a mix of religion associated charities/community stuff/whatnot and secular).

Bird on a Fire wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 6:34 pm In the town I grew up in, the food bank, night shelter and day centre were all run by churches. My mum works in sheltered housing for old folks, and churches run the lunch clubs that provide a lot of their social contact. Etc, etc. That said, I don't know what proportion of their volunteers are actually religious, but sometimes just having a large institution with personnel and premises etc. is super helpful for coordinating willing volunteers.

OTOH, things like the covid mutual aid groups were secular and quite impressively quick and thorough to launch. But they didn't need any physical space.

If religious communities somehow suddenly disappeared I reckon there'd be a big gap to fill, and at least in the UK I'm not sure there's much in the way of an off-the-shelf replacement waiting in the wings. The closest kind of "community hub" I can think of is pubs (and the few remaining social clubs, "working men's clubs" etc.), but as a lot of them have commercial bottom lines (and are mostly owned by soulless breweries) that seems implausible, especially as they're already dropping like flies.

Obv geographical difference then. There'd be a bigger gap to fill here if the churches stayed and the community centres went. (Not that I'm necessarily saying I personally want the churches to go - a gap can be undesirable even if it's a relatively small one.)

Round here the food banks, lunch clubs, and day centres are generally at community centres rather than churches. Also worth mentioning, professionals like advice workers who tend to help some of the most vulnerable are based in local community centres. Night shelters are separate to the community centres & churches here, presumably because our homelessness problem is so bad it needs a dedicated service or seven.

The churches did get involved in the pandemic response but they were using the same hub as everyone else (individual do-gooders, community groups, town council, district council etc) and that was a community centre rather than a church. Same in the other two areas I have knowledge of. Perhaps the north is full of godless heathen do-gooders in a way that the south isn't?

I wouldn't have even considered pubs or WMC as hubs. We have far more obvious premises than boozers. There are 9,000+ community centres and village halls registered as charities in England & Wales and I think an awful lot aren't registered (we weren't till recently) so f.ck knows how many there are altogether. There's also a fair bit of use by community groups when it comes to council facilities - libraries, council-run halls, former children's centres, schools and these buildings tend to have the capacity for more use. Sheltered housing complexes often have community groups too in small halls or lounges but tbf I think that's mostly for residents only, the things I can think of are exceptions.

I just checked, and there is now a secular community centre in Winchester, run out of the library "Discovery Centre". But I'm sure it wasn't there a few years ago, as I spent a lot of time in that library during 2016-8.

Maybe the problem is property prices? The only longstanding community centres I can find are in the larger suburbs/engulfed villages a long way from the centre. Or perhaps there's just a glut of churches.

Anyway, good to hear that there are other non-religious offerings. I've nothing against religion necessarily, tbh*, but they mostly seem to be declining in numbers (especially the young folk) so there's going to be a gap to fill in any case.

*I was raised in various flavours of Christianity - whichever church nearest our house had the best social support offerings, which were a great help for my widowed mum as she struggled having a growing boaf around the house for a decade. The only proper holidays we had for most of my childhood were in a Christian holiday centre in Devon that did bursaries for single parent families. I lost my faith during my confirmation classes, but they coincided with both adolescence and a MH cataclysm so who knows. I know there are a..eholes, and the many institutions succomb to the same horrors as other powerful institutions, but I genuinely think religion also harnesses a huge amount of good that can be effectively channelled (or maybe good people within religions are channelling the institutions resources, I dunno).