Page 16 of 24
Re: After Corbyn
Posted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 12:51 pm
by plodder
sheldrake wrote: Sat Jan 11, 2020 11:04 am
Jess Philips wants to believe she's a straight talking northern iconoclast but her values are of the London middle class and I suspect she's talking bollocks about Abbott.
London? Nah.
Re: After Corbyn
Posted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 1:42 pm
by AMS
sheldrake wrote: Sat Jan 11, 2020 11:04 am
Jess Philips wants to believe she's a straight talking northern iconoclast but her values are of the London middle class and I suspect she's talking bollocks about Abbott.
Is Birmingham a northern city now?
Re: After Corbyn
Posted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 2:52 pm
by Gfamily
Just waiting for Kier Starmer to talk to us in Manchester. Was impressed by his efforts to give parliament due control of the process, so would be good to see how well a case he can put for taking Labour forward.
Re: After Corbyn
Posted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 2:59 pm
by GeenDienst
Elsewhere, RBLT has apparently
written to Momentum asking them to support Rayner as deputy (as the alternative is apparently Burgon, this may have something going for it).
In this letter, arguing that Rayner is better because she isn't precisely one of them, she states:
“If there are people in our party who are more interested in beating the left than winning back power for Labour, we must ensure that we isolate them, not help them to isolate us.”
She hasn't got a f.cking scooby.
Also...
A source from Rayner’s campaign said the letter showed that “Becky has the guts to face down the old guard”, and that “the new generation of the left are going to assert themselves in shaping the future of the Labour party”.
To the barricades, Comrades.
Re: After Corbyn
Posted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:01 pm
by sheldrake
AMS wrote: Sat Jan 11, 2020 1:42 pm
sheldrake wrote: Sat Jan 11, 2020 11:04 am
Jess Philips wants to believe she's a straight talking northern iconoclast but her values are of the London middle class and I suspect she's talking bollocks about Abbott.
Is Birmingham a northern city now?
No, but I think she has more in common with the ideas of Islington than Northfields and Mosley.
Re: After Corbyn
Posted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:34 pm
by JQH
Would that be Islington like Tony Blair or Islington like Jeremy Corbyn?
Re: After Corbyn
Posted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 5:06 pm
by sheldrake
JQH wrote: Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:34 pm
Would that be Islington like Tony Blair or Islington like Jeremy Corbyn?
More like Blair I think. She's not an antisemite
Re: After Corbyn
Posted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 4:46 pm
by jimbob
I misread the link as backing "feudalism" not "federalism"
Re: After Corbyn
Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:05 pm
by Vertigowooyay
Just saw this on Twitter - someone posted a page of their welcome pack after joining Labour this month. Look carefully and you *may* see a bit of Labour’s history missing.
- CF5B11DA-B31C-4B81-B54D-B0162E0D8F1E.jpeg (315.64 KiB) Viewed 4493 times
Re: After Corbyn
Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:10 pm
by Fishnut
Vertigowooyay wrote: Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:05 pm
Just saw this on Twitter - someone posted a page of their welcome pack after joining Labour this month. Look carefully and you *may* see a bit of Labour’s history missing.
CF5B11DA-B31C-4B81-B54D-B0162E0D8F1E.jpeg
Wow, that's disturbing. Is Blair that much of a pariah, and Brown so insignificant, that 13 years of a Labour government is less notable that "losing an election but not as badly as last time"?
Re: After Corbyn
Posted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:34 am
by plodder
Jesus. f.cking doomed.
Re: After Corbyn
Posted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:56 am
by cvb
sheldrake wrote: Wed Jan 08, 2020 9:52 am
cvb wrote: Wed Jan 08, 2020 8:35 am
sheldrake wrote: Wed Jan 08, 2020 8:32 am
The UK could refuse to accept the whole MFF, but it doesnt get to vote spwcifically on the rebate.
So that is yes?
No, the UK does not have a unilateral veto on losing its rebate. What it could do is hold up the EU budgeting process until the other members got so annoyed they decided to sanction the UK in other ways. For one thing, without the MFF being passed there would've been no-EU payments coming into the UK either. The direction of travel from statements from other EU members and the outcome of previous negotiations was very clear.
So that's a yes then.
Re: After Corbyn
Posted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:23 am
by sheldrake
No, it's a firm no.
Re: After Corbyn
Posted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:09 pm
by Vertigowooyay
Fishnut wrote: Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:10 pm
Vertigowooyay wrote: Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:05 pm
Just saw this on Twitter - someone posted a page of their welcome pack after joining Labour this month. Look carefully and you *may* see a bit of Labour’s history missing.
CF5B11DA-B31C-4B81-B54D-B0162E0D8F1E.jpeg
Wow, that's disturbing. Is Blair that much of a pariah, and Brown so insignificant, that 13 years of a Labour government is less notable that "losing an election but not as badly as last time"?
I'm sure Harold Wilson is pissed off as well.
Re: After Corbyn
Posted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 3:08 pm
by Gfamily
Vertigowooyay wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:09 pm
Fishnut wrote: Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:10 pm
Vertigowooyay wrote: Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:05 pm
Just saw this on Twitter - someone posted a page of their welcome pack after joining Labour this month. Look carefully and you *may* see a bit of Labour’s history missing.
CF5B11DA-B31C-4B81-B54D-B0162E0D8F1E.jpeg
Wow, that's disturbing. Is Blair that much of a pariah, and Brown so insignificant, that 13 years of a Labour government is less notable that "losing an election but not as badly as last time"?
I'm sure Harold Wilson is pissed off as well.
TBH, it's hard to see it as that one specific GE winner being ignored, since no GE winners are mentioned.
The fact that one GE loser is being lauded is bl..dy stupid, but it's not exactly rewriting history.
At least some of the achievements of that period are being lauded.
Re: After Corbyn
Posted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 8:35 pm
by Sciolus
Huh? They listed a number of historic Labour achievements, including two under Blair. They need something from recent years, so it doesn't look like the party is dead, but since they haven't been in government for a decade they've had to contrive what they can, even though they're pretty weak. I don't see any whitewashing and the "we only slightly lost" thing is just marketing. It's like writing a CV when you've been away from the job market for a while.
Re: After Corbyn
Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:49 am
by cvb
sheldrake wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:23 am
No, it's a firm no.
You are either lying or being stupid.
As pointed out the UK has to agree to the rebate being abolished. Is that right?
Now I accept it is part of a wider agreement but the UK has to agree to it. Is that right?
How often has this agreement been made since the rebate started? How often has the UK lost the rebate but still agreed to the agreement? The answer is none.
I am absolutely sure the EU really do want the rebate to be abolished but the UK will have to vote for this to happen as the agreement has to be unanimous.
Re: After Corbyn
Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:56 am
by sheldrake
No, without the UKs agreement the whole budget is held up. This isnt a get out of jail card. Think about why other countries dont use this to try and get a rebate.
Out rebate has already been reduced and it would've gone in the next negotiation. Particularly given our supine pro-European political class before Boris cleaned out the stables.
Re: After Corbyn
Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:01 am
by cvb
sheldrake wrote: Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:56 am
No, without the UKs agreement the whole budget is held up. This isnt a get out of jail card. Think about why other countries dont use this to try and get a rebate.
Out rebate has already been reduced and it would've gone in the next negotiation. Particularly given our supine pro-European political class before Boris cleaned out the stables.
A yes or no answer. Does the UK have to agree to give up it's rebate? I know it is part of a wider agreement. We have been through that. Still though does the UK have to agree to give up its rebate? Yes or no?
Re: After Corbyn
Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:19 am
by GeenDienst
OK, that's Nandy added to the "Labour leaders that would make completely sure I don't vote Labour until they've been f.cked off" list.
Re: After Corbyn
Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:21 am
by sheldrake
cvb wrote: Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:01 am
sheldrake wrote: Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:56 am
No, without the UKs agreement the whole budget is held up. This isnt a get out of jail card. Think about why other countries dont use this to try and get a rebate.
Out rebate has already been reduced and it would've gone in the next negotiation. Particularly given our supine pro-European political class before Boris cleaned out the stables.
A yes or no answer. Does the UK have to agree to give up it's rebate? I know it is part of a wider agreement. We have been through that. Still though does the UK have to agree to give up its rebate? Yes or no?
No. The UK can be forced to give up its rebate without its consent. That's why one had to be negotiated in the first place and thats why the reduction in rebate was also the result of a negotiation. The rebate is not codified in any treaties, so not having a rebate is the default legal position and it has to be renegotiated every 7 years. If we simply refused to pass the entire MFF because we didn't like losing our rebate then the next step would be qualified majority voting on the MFF approved by the European Parliament in disgust at the UK's behaviour. Whilst this was being cleared up, all funds normally paid from the EU to UK projects would cease.
Re: After Corbyn
Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 11:08 am
by Bird on a Fire
To be honest you both agree on the substantive issues - that the UK would likely lose its EU rebate, and that the loss would occur as part of a voting process.
The point on which you seem to differ is how free the UK would have been to vote against the EU Commission's wishes and hold up the entire budget.
If you are interested in continuing that (entirely hypothetical) discussion, it might be more interesting to focus specifically on the few areas of disagreement, rather than endlessly yes/no-ing the same thing. This isn't the MFF, after all.
But please could you both do it in another thread, as it has nothing to do with the direction of Labour after Corbyn.
Re: After Corbyn
Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 11:52 am
by cvb
Bird on a Fire wrote: Wed Jan 15, 2020 11:08 am
To be honest you both agree on the substantive issues - that the UK would likely lose its EU rebate, and that the loss would occur as part of a voting process.
The point on which you seem to differ is how free the UK would have been to vote against the EU Commission's wishes and hold up the entire budget.
If you are interested in continuing that (entirely hypothetical) discussion, it might be more interesting to focus specifically on the few areas of disagreement, rather than endlessly yes/no-ing the same thing. This isn't the MFF, after all.
But please could you both do it in another thread, as it has nothing to do with the direction of Labour after Corbyn.
I think that is largely where we are so I am happy to drop it.
Re: After Corbyn
Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:16 pm
by plodder
GeenDienst wrote: Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:19 am
OK, that's Nandy added to the "Labour leaders that would make completely sure I don't vote Labour until they've been f.cked off" list.
Why?
Thanks.
Re: After Corbyn
Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:22 pm
by GeenDienst
plodder wrote: Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:16 pm
GeenDienst wrote: Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:19 am
OK, that's Nandy added to the "Labour leaders that would make completely sure I don't vote Labour until they've been f.cked off" list.
Why?
Thanks.
For telling f.ckwit, b.llsh.t lies about me.
If she, or probably RBLT, won, Labour would be purely for angry northerners. And f.ck them.