Scrutable

plodder wrote: Wed Mar 02, 2022 12:26 pm My understanding of Eastern European history is woeful, but I understand that the reason that Crimea and Eastern Ukraine is predominantly ethnic Russian today is because Stalin starved out the population in the 30's in a planned famine then imported lots of ethnic Russians once the area had been depopulated.

https://www.history.com/news/ukrainian-famine-stalin

JQH wrote: Wed Mar 02, 2022 3:51 pm Why should Ukraine, as a sovereign nation, not join whatever military alliance that they believe best benefits them?

Herainestold wrote: Wed Mar 02, 2022 3:57 pm

JQH wrote: Wed Mar 02, 2022 3:51 pm Why should Ukraine, as a sovereign nation, not join whatever military alliance that they believe best benefits them?

In theory they should. In practise they are going to be destroyed.

The next week or so is going to be awful. I shudder to think of what is going to happen to the Ukranian people.

Herainestold wrote: Wed Mar 02, 2022 3:35 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote: Wed Mar 02, 2022 3:05 pm

Herainestold wrote: Wed Mar 02, 2022 2:55 pm If Corbyn had been PM post 2017 he would have been in a position to restrain NATO and give security assurances to Russia that might have prevented this conflict. Obviously that didn't happen.
In the present circumstance he is irrelevant.

What has NATO done since 2017 that you think caused this invasion?

They continued to talk about Ukraine membership. They should have given Russia assurances that Ukraine would not be admitted and they should have
stopped all arms sales and training to Ukraine military.

Russia is "restoring its unity" and providing a "solution to the Ukrainian question" in its invasion of Ukraine, reads an opinion piece that was seemingly published by accident by Russian news agency RIA Novosti before being quickly taken down. The article was recorded by the Internet Archive's Wayback Machine before it was taken offline.

"A new world is being born before our eyes," wrote Petr Akopov in the article. "Russia's military operation in Ukraine has ushered in a new era — and in three dimensions at once. And of course, in the fourth, domestically. Here begins a new period both in ideology and in the very model of our socio-economic system."

Echoing similar statements made recently by Russian President Vladimir Putin, Akopov referred to the 1991 declarations of independence by Belarus and Ukraine as a "terrible catastrophe" and an "unnatural dislocation."

Why John Mearsheimer Blames the U.S. for the Crisis in Ukraine

Looking at the situation now with Russia and Ukraine, how do you think the world got here?

I think all the trouble in this case really started in April, 2008, at the NATO Summit in Bucharest, where afterward NATO issued a statement that said Ukraine and Georgia would become part of NATO. The Russians made it unequivocally clear at the time that they viewed this as an existential threat, and they drew a line in the sand. Nevertheless, what has happened with the passage of time is that we have moved forward to include Ukraine in the West to make Ukraine a Western bulwark on Russia’s border. Of course, this includes more than just NATO expansion. NATO expansion is the heart of the strategy, but it includes E.U. expansion as well, and it includes turning Ukraine into a pro-American liberal democracy, and, from a Russian perspective, this is an existential threat.

This puts me in a difficult place. Among the worst disseminators of Kremlin propaganda in the UK are people with whom I have, in the past, shared platforms and made alliances. The grim truth is that, for years, a segment of the “anti-imperialist” left has been recycling and amplifying Putin’s falsehoods.

Bird on a Fire wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 1:34 am Monbiot's done a good piece taking down some of the Kremlin's dishonest justification of the invasion, including coming out swinging against Stop the War:

This puts me in a difficult place. Among the worst disseminators of Kremlin propaganda in the UK are people with whom I have, in the past, shared platforms and made alliances. The grim truth is that, for years, a segment of the “anti-imperialist” left has been recycling and amplifying Putin’s falsehoods.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... imir-putin

JQH wrote: Wed Mar 02, 2022 4:13 pm

Herainestold wrote: Wed Mar 02, 2022 3:57 pm

JQH wrote: Wed Mar 02, 2022 3:51 pm Why should Ukraine, as a sovereign nation, not join whatever military alliance that they believe best benefits them?

In theory they should. In practise they are going to be destroyed.

The next week or so is going to be awful. I shudder to think of what is going to happen to the Ukranian people.

So you reckon smaller nations should give in to the demands of belligerent neighbours?

Woodchopper wrote: Wed Mar 02, 2022 12:39 pm

plodder wrote: Wed Mar 02, 2022 12:26 pm My understanding of Eastern European history is woeful, but I understand that the reason that Crimea and Eastern Ukraine is predominantly ethnic Russian today is because Stalin starved out the population in the 30's in a planned famine then imported lots of ethnic Russians once the area had been depopulated.

https://www.history.com/news/ukrainian-famine-stalin

That's generally correct.

Also, we shouldn't assume that being ethnically Russian means that someone isn't also a Ukrainian nationalist. For example, Volodymyr Zelensky grew up in a Russian speaking family.

plodder wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 5:11 pm I mean, you know, m'kay, it's actually all about NATO

https://mobile.twitter.com/hurryupharry ... 1894190081

Stranger Mouse wrote: Fri Mar 04, 2022 12:06 pm Will nobody bring NATO to account for causing Russian soldiers to fire missiles ata nuclear reactor?

Woodchopper wrote: Fri Mar 04, 2022 10:24 am

plodder wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 5:11 pm I mean, you know, m'kay, it's actually all about NATO

https://mobile.twitter.com/hurryupharry ... 1894190081

An accidental riposte from someone from the region: https://commons.com.ua/en/us-plaining-n ... -mistakes/

To summarize, an insistence that ultimately its all the fault of the US and NATO is an example of the narcissism found in some of the US and European radical left. Russia is doing its own thing. NATO and the US are of course relevant, but they aren't as important as some seem to think.

seeking to shore up their domestic position, and found a great nationalist cause… he inspired his people with this misbegotten idea that it needed to be rescued and liberated. There’s a very close sort of analogy between that catastrophic mistake, and…

Bird on a Fire wrote: Sat Mar 05, 2022 1:18 pm Also interesting to see him completely rule out NATO troops on the ground. Seems to be a matter of bipartisan consensus in the UK.